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Made in us
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Seems to be a more and more common problem in competitive games. I am almost certain gw did zero play testing when it came to skitarii in drop pods or eldar wraiths with a dark eldar ally and webway portal.


warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

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On moon miranda.

 Orock wrote:
Seems to be a more and more common problem in competitive games. I am almost certain gw did zero play testing when it came to skitarii in drop pods or eldar wraiths with a dark eldar ally and webway portal.

GW doesn't care. They're attitude is simply "well work something out with your opponent".

They have completely abdicated responsibility for both rules and background functionality with game, and they've been rather open about that. Their playtesting is nonexistent, and their design philisophy is such that they still aren't writing armies with the allies rules and possibilities inmind.

The allies & detachment rules are simply compeletely absurd both from gaming and background perspectives, but GW doesn't want anything to possibly stop people from buying literally anything to use with literally anything else, and thus such restrictions have gone out the window.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 01:32:54


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Buffalo, NY

You think Wraiths with a WWP are bad?

A local store is holding a team tournament. For this, regardless of factions, each army is battle brothers with their partner. This means, for example, if you play Eldar and your opponent plays BA (or SW), you can put your Wraiths in Drop Pods.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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 Happyjew wrote:
You think Wraiths with a WWP are bad?

A local store is holding a team tournament. For this, regardless of factions, each army is battle brothers with their partner. This means, for example, if you play Eldar and your opponent plays BA (or SW), you can put your Wraiths in Drop Pods.


Woo! Dakkafexen in drop pods! Tyranid Warriors assaulting out of Land Raiders!

   
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I want to do this... I want to have a Land Raider disgorge Genestealers. A Crusader full of Genestealers and a Broodlord... Or! A Rhino with Zoanthropes casting Warp Blast out the top! So many funs to be had.
   
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There's a lot wrong with this edition.
I love the idea of allies, but I really dislike the implementation.
Keep it at "basically a second smaller army" and it would be tolerable for most.



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 SharkoutofWata wrote:
I want to do this... I want to have a Land Raider disgorge Genestealers. A Crusader full of Genestealers and a Broodlord... Or! A Rhino with Zoanthropes casting Warp Blast out the top! So many funs to be had.


i smell toast

   
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SBG wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
You think Wraiths with a WWP are bad?

A local store is holding a team tournament. For this, regardless of factions, each army is battle brothers with their partner. This means, for example, if you play Eldar and your opponent plays BA (or SW), you can put your Wraiths in Drop Pods.


Woo! Dakkafexen in drop pods! Tyranid Warriors assaulting out of Land Raiders!

My locals did this a couple of times. It can get so ridiculous that it's completely impossible NOT to have fun. Ever have Nemesor lead Grav Centurions? And changing his Warlord trait as needed? It's awesome, not gonna lie.

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 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Orock wrote:
Seems to be a more and more common problem in competitive games. I am almost certain gw did zero play testing when it came to skitarii in drop pods or eldar wraiths with a dark eldar ally and webway portal.



Same issue that most people have when they dislike a rule - two instances of crappy imbalance does not mean that other BB allies riding together should be prohibited.

you can put your Wraiths in Drop Pods.


The entry fee for that event will be the worst $20 you ever spend.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 04:40:48


 
   
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Well to be fair the Skitarii are pretty bad went it comes to getting across the board. Especially when they have no dedicated transport. Hmmm, one must wonder if the ones who wrote that deliberately left the transports out because of the Alliance Matrix...

Eldar... well, it may be a bit too much for them. The Eldars right now really don't need FNP (I assume that's what you are talking about). But hey, it's fluffy! Besides, I can't see the Eldar gets much worse (better) for this.

 Happyjew wrote:
You think Wraiths with a WWP are bad?
A local store is holding a team tournament. For this, regardless of factions, each army is battle brothers with their partner. This means, for example, if you play Eldar and your opponent plays BA (or SW), you can put your Wraiths in Drop Pods.


First, it sounds ridiculous and therefore awesome! Second, it's a TO's choice to disregard the alliance chart to make this happen, and, for once, GW is innocent of this. Maybe the only thing GW is guilty of is not making this happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 04:53:29


 
   
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It is true that allies should not share transports. Why are you carrying a bunch of Guardsmen inside your Drop Pod? They will be reduced to meat when it lands.
   
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Fixture of Dakka






I understand that perhaps it may create issues of balance.

However, from a fluff perspective, there is absolutely no reason why one Imperium faction wouldn't share transports with another faction; just like there's no reason Eldar and Dark Eldar and Harlequin wouldn't be able to share transports. I mean, it just makes sense.

If your sole problem with allied DT is Skitarii on Drop Pods, or Drop Pods in general, you should specifically say that. I don't think it's generally a problem; though there are some specific awesome combinations, like Flesh Tearers.

But anyways, what you really end up with is two things:

1) It's meta-changing. In the specific example of Skitarii pods, It forces players to take specials like Interceptor, or reconfigure a battleforce to deal with drop and some pretty nasty guys.

2) GW's direction seems to be many little factions that are related and can be combined to make an army. I would say that's different and in the long run, interesting.

Personally, I think most of the resistance just boils down to (some) people not wanting 40k to be a fluid and rapidly changing game. They'd rather be able to build their army -- dare I say, download a list from the Internet and build it -- and then play it for many years knowing that it will be effective. Instead, what happens is the same thing as a CCG -- The conventional wisdom is that as soon as there's a meta shift, competitive players either (a) need to already have everything in the collection or (b) scramble to get the right pieces to deal with the latest threat.

The unconventional wisdom is that if you have more flexible armies that can deal with unexpected surprises, and you add unexpected surprises yourself, you're more likely to be successful. The side effect of this is that 40k becomes like a CCG in a way: building a good and unexpected list is as or more important than anything else. Often, if I play a strategy that my opponent does not expect nor can predict based on my units, I will win; often, if I play great units, but they know what to expect, even in the best of scenarios, it's left to luck.

One last thing -- all the rage is Skitarii on Drop Pods, but we've played some Skitarii NOT in pods, allied with Imperial Knights. Lemme tell you, the points spent in the Flesh Tearer detachment going towards a couple of Knights instead is something fierce. Bottom line: Skitarii are no joke. They can be at least as good as Eldar, IMO; it's just that the playstyles, units and tactics are still fledgling in nature.

What it all boils down to between allies and rapid releases of new stuff is that 40k is a game is getting more and more complex, with more opportunities to upset so-called netlists, or more kindly, common configurations.
   
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 Talys wrote:
I understand that perhaps it may create issues of balance.

However, from a fluff perspective, there is absolutely no reason why one Imperium faction wouldn't share transports with another faction; just like there's no reason Eldar and Dark Eldar and Harlequin wouldn't be able to share transports. I mean, it just makes sense.
Hrm, not always.

Drop Pods have always been specifically and repeatedly described as being lethal to any but a Space Marine to use. Likewise, when transports are treasured relics of inestimable age, they're often not the sort of thing you just let anyone hop in and take for a spin. Land Raiders are, by the Emperor's decree, to be used only by the Astartes, so packing one full of Ogryn or Skitarii and the like would be extremely awkward.




Personally, I think most of the resistance just boils down to (some) people not wanting 40k to be a fluid and rapidly changing game. They'd rather be able to build their army -- dare I say, download a list from the Internet and build it -- and then play it for many years knowing that it will be effective. Instead, what happens is the same thing as a CCG -- The conventional wisdom is that as soon as there's a meta shift, competitive players either (a) need to already have everything in the collection or (b) scramble to get the right pieces to deal with the latest threat.
This is CCG thinking, in a game that GW has gone out of its way to say they're not designing as a competitive game, thus we're talking about unintentional possibilities that were never really intended for certain armies but just happen to be allowed because GW doesn't want to tell people they can't include certain things in an army, because they think that's bad for sales, as opposed to something like MTG where they introduce something new to mix up the game intentionally and do actual playtesting and have functional rules support and ban lists.

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Sheffield

Well thanks to this demons finally get some transport options, and hell transporting CSM in Chimera seams much more efficient .

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 Vaktathi wrote:
This is CCG thinking, in a game that GW has gone out of its way to say they're not designing as a competitive game, thus we're talking about unintentional possibilities that were never really intended for certain armies but just happen to be allowed because GW doesn't want to tell people they can't include certain things in an army, because they think that's bad for sales, as opposed to something like MTG where they introduce something new to mix up the game intentionally and do actual playtesting and have functional rules support and ban lists.


MTG is hardly a world of balance You cannot just make a deck using cards you like (ooooo this is fairie pretty... that crocodile looks mean!) and... win... anything. There are uncommon, rare, and ultrarare cards that are better in every single way than common cards for no reason other than they cost more to obtain. Either you pay a bunch of money for the card, or you buy a boatload of cards to get it.

But my point was that 40k listbuilding is a lot like the MtG listbuilding, including "the meta". Assuming competent opponents, to have a high win ratio in either game, you need to have above-average skill, plus not only a good list, but ideally a list that your opponent isn't prepared for, and that is likely to prevail against the common types of lists that are most popular in the scene you're playing in -- and even against the skill level of the players you're facing.

On the other hand, if you play some cheesy net list, it's very likely that the more experienced opponents will know exactly how to counter it, and at best, you'll be at even odds and just seeing if luck favors you.

I think that 40k is a game that you can throw a ton of time and money in -- even having read the internet and buying "the most op faction" -- and yet have very little success, or have very limited, short-term success, which is frustrating to many people to start the game/hobby.

Then again, if you play competitive CCGs, netlisting and chasing the meta is also a great way to produce very average-ish, unsatisfying results.

One thing that I always think is that 40k is probably more externally balanced than people give GW credit for. When you look at the ITC tournament results -- which I check here and there just for fun -- they are pretty split, and lots of factions you think wouldn't do well actually place extremely highly. For all that we bash them, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Imperial Guard have all had pretty decent finishes since the new CWE codex, and CWE do ok in some tournaments, and pretty crappy in others. Scatter lasers and all. Necron sometimes do ok, but often don't as well.

I think we (and I am also guilty of this) often see a great tactic used on us for the first time, and our first reaction is, "hoy crap, that is unbeatable and stupidly overpowered!!!". When, in fact, we just haven't adjusted to that tactic/unit/combo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 08:00:28


 
   
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 SharkoutofWata wrote:
I want to do this... I want to have a Land Raider disgorge Genestealers. A Crusader full of Genestealers and a Broodlord... Or! A Rhino with Zoanthropes casting Warp Blast out the top! So many funs to be had.
you could pit black Templar into battle wagons and run them as mork/gork cultists... And it would actually be somewhat crazy. Paint em green in places, watch dem try real 'ard

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On moon miranda.

 Talys wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
This is CCG thinking, in a game that GW has gone out of its way to say they're not designing as a competitive game, thus we're talking about unintentional possibilities that were never really intended for certain armies but just happen to be allowed because GW doesn't want to tell people they can't include certain things in an army, because they think that's bad for sales, as opposed to something like MTG where they introduce something new to mix up the game intentionally and do actual playtesting and have functional rules support and ban lists.


MTG is hardly a world of balance You cannot just make a deck using cards you like (ooooo this is fairie pretty... that crocodile looks mean!) and... win... anything. There are uncommon, rare, and ultrarare cards that are better in every single way than common cards for no reason other than they cost more to obtain. Either you pay a bunch of money for the card, or you buy a boatload of cards to get it.
Right, I won't argue that, but they do a lot more in that regard, and a lot more of the effects you see on the game are intentional, than GW.



But my point was that 40k listbuilding is a lot like the MtG listbuilding, including "the meta". Assuming competent opponents, to have a high win ratio in either game, you need to have above-average skill, plus not only a good list, but ideally a list that your opponent isn't prepared for, and that is likely to prevail against the common types of lists that are most popular in the scene you're playing in -- and even against the skill level of the players you're facing.

On the other hand, if you play some cheesy net list, it's very likely that the more experienced opponents will know exactly how to counter it, and at best, you'll be at even odds and just seeing if luck favors you.
The bigger issue, more and more, is that it's simply impossible to include all the tools to deal with everything, particularly without resorting to importing sections of other armies yourself.


I think that 40k is a game that you can throw a ton of time and money in -- even having read the internet and buying "the most op faction" -- and yet have very little success, or have very limited, short-term success, which is frustrating to many people to start the game/hobby.
Yes and no. I mean, at my last tournament, that guy that took Best General simply brought and Eldar Destroyer-weapon-spam army and bulldozed everyone he played against, despite never having placed anything near that well before and being somewhat lacking in his knowledge of the rules. Some of that's down to matchup, but that's how many tournaments are won.


One thing that I always think is that 40k is probably more externally balanced than people give GW credit for. When you look at the ITC tournament results -- which I check here and there just for fun -- they are pretty split, and lots of factions you think wouldn't do well actually place extremely highly. For all that we bash them, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Imperial Guard have all had pretty decent finishes since the new CWE codex
How many of those DE/IG/etc armies however are able to do so with a single detachment, and more importantly, without allies from other, armies to plug capability gaps? Not many.



I think we (and I am also guilty of this) often see a great tactic used on us for the first time, and our first reaction is, "hoy crap, that is unbeatable and stupidly overpowered!!!". When, in fact, we just haven't adjusted to that tactic/unit/combo.
Sometimes, sure, absolutely. But there's also an incredible amount of abuse of the allies system, in ways that really are directly contrary to the game's established background and/or were obviously never considered in any sort of playtesting.

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MTG is hardly a world of balance You cannot just make a deck using cards you like (ooooo this is fairie pretty... that crocodile looks mean!) and... win... anything. There are uncommon, rare, and ultrarare cards that are better in every single way than common cards for no reason other than they cost more to obtain. Either you pay a bunch of money for the card, or you buy a boatload of cards to get it.

In a draft format I can. I can even win tournaments with those bad cards. Now in w40k I have the option to play the faction that GW buffs with every new codex or play a multi codex patchwork something. Some wants to play IG and only IG, tough luck. Oh and let me remove all the options you had in your codex, so you have to use ally or use FW, when other people don't have. Even worse then getting a mono build codex, like nids or GKs.


My defense against a pod list is what an aegis, and to use it I need a copy of a book that is out of print, so good luck for any new player wanting to use it. Otherwise IG doesn't access to interecetpors or that can survive the alfa strike. And if it was just one army that can do something like that, I could place it in the sad, bad match up corner. But eldar and anything with a cent star does the same thing.
   
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 Talys wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
as opposed to something like MTG where they introduce something new to mix up the game intentionally and do actual playtesting and have functional rules support and ban lists.


MTG is hardly a world of balance You cannot just make a deck using cards you like (ooooo this is fairie pretty... that crocodile looks mean!) and... win... anything. There are uncommon, rare, and ultrarare cards that are better in every single way than common cards for no reason other than they cost more to obtain. Either you pay a bunch of money for the card, or you buy a boatload of cards to get it.


True, that is pay-to-win - but so is GW these days. If you can afford to have a truckload of FW+GW models and a shelf or army books for allies you can conceivably crush anyone playing a single army CAD, out-cheesing even Eldar and Necrons. Guys that play only a single other army are probably chanceless if you take all the best.
   
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Yes what was it draigo for get gate, centurions for grav, las and split fire, the FW dude to get invisibility. And one has a nice unit that gets only hit on +6, ignores template weapons, has a +2inv tank if needed, two force weapons, split fire to shot at 2 things, an aoe from the psychic scream power , plus anything draigo gets. And they get in to melee they have nice +2 bodies with t5 on majority of models. Just need 2 codex and FW to get a nice counter to anything the other army has.
   
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Spetulhu wrote:
 Talys wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
as opposed to something like MTG where they introduce something new to mix up the game intentionally and do actual playtesting and have functional rules support and ban lists.


MTG is hardly a world of balance You cannot just make a deck using cards you like (ooooo this is fairie pretty... that crocodile looks mean!) and... win... anything. There are uncommon, rare, and ultrarare cards that are better in every single way than common cards for no reason other than they cost more to obtain. Either you pay a bunch of money for the card, or you buy a boatload of cards to get it.


True, that is pay-to-win - but so is GW these days. If you can afford to have a truckload of FW+GW models and a shelf or army books for allies you can conceivably crush anyone playing a single army CAD, out-cheesing even Eldar and Necrons. Guys that play only a single other army are probably chanceless if you take all the best.


GW are putting rules for powerful formations in packs that cost £500+ as the only way of getting them. GW has completely embraced Pay2Win.

 
   
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Buffalo, NY

 Dakkamite wrote:
 Orock wrote:
Seems to be a more and more common problem in competitive games. I am almost certain gw did zero play testing when it came to skitarii in drop pods or eldar wraiths with a dark eldar ally and webway portal.



Same issue that most people have when they dislike a rule - two instances of crappy imbalance does not mean that other BB allies riding together should be prohibited.

you can put your Wraiths in Drop Pods.


The entry fee for that event will be the worst $20 you ever spend.


$20? Try $50.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Cobleskill

There are competitive formats where you can use the 'pretty' cards alongside the more effective ones - have you ever tried a singleton format like edh or tiny leaders?

There is something similar in 40k as well, I believe; does anyone still play highlander? (where you have to take one of each legal option before you can double up)

Perhaps we could fix things like allied drop pod usage by instituting things like a toughness test or something similar?

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Krieg! What a hole...

DKoK Grenadiers in a Drop Pod might make them viable

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 Orock wrote:
Seems to be a more and more common problem in competitive games. I am almost certain gw did zero play testing when it came to skitarii in drop pods or eldar wraiths with a dark eldar ally and webway portal.



What's a matter bud do you have a problem with: Dark Eldar Archon with a webway portal, 5 wraithknights with D-scythes, in a Waveserpent, deepstriking (via webwayportal), no scatter, being allowed to disembark on same turn, and fraking up your entire game with D weapons flamers.

yeah yeah me too. stupidest crap ever allowed in this game.

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As annoying as the WWPWG are, it is worth noting that that's...what, a 310 point unit without the wave serpent (what use is the wave serpent?)

It's pretty tough to take out 310 points with them. The Counterplay to them is to either bubble wrap against them or reserve stuff that's super expensive that they'll kill.

Especially considering that a lot of the stuff they can use to make back their points will survive, like THSS termies which actually have a decent chance of living if spaced properly.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

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 lcmiracle wrote:
Well to be fair the Skitarii are pretty bad went it comes to getting across the board. Especially when they have no dedicated transport. Hmmm, one must wonder if the ones who wrote that deliberately left the transports out because of the Alliance Matrix...

It's actually more of a background thing likely in this case. The skitarii are like death corps. It's not new.

   
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the_scotsman wrote:
As annoying as the WWPWG are, it is worth noting that that's...what, a 310 point unit without the wave serpent (what use is the wave serpent?)

It's pretty tough to take out 310 points with them. The Counterplay to them is to either bubble wrap against them or reserve stuff that's super expensive that they'll kill.

Especially considering that a lot of the stuff they can use to make back their points will survive, like THSS termies which actually have a decent chance of living if spaced properly.


So you bubble wrap, they drop down and kill less then 310pts. Now your IG army has either castled up and eldar took all objectives, if they went second or worse you went first and still had to castle up without moving out of fear of being exposed. And lets not forget that the bubble wrap has to survive one or more turns of shoting from a few scatter bikes, a WK and what ever else the eldar have. Meq have it good they can at least charge the unit and hope they never roll a 6 on their 5d3 flamer D shots and take it with a eternal warrior HQ.
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 Orock wrote:
Seems to be a more and more common problem in competitive games. I am almost certain gw did zero play testing when it came to skitarii in drop pods or eldar wraiths with a dark eldar ally and webway portal.


It's less of an issue with Skitarii or Battle-Brother transports and more an issue with the nonsense of "empty" transports.

Remember when it was rare to see models with transport capacity that were not Dedicated Transports?

You had Falcons for Eldar, Valkyries/Vendettas for Guard, Land Raiders for Marines...and that was basically it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 carldooley wrote:
There are competitive formats where you can use the 'pretty' cards alongside the more effective ones - have you ever tried a singleton format like edh or tiny leaders?

There is something similar in 40k as well, I believe; does anyone still play highlander? (where you have to take one of each legal option before you can double up)

Perhaps we could fix things like allied drop pod usage by instituting things like a toughness test or something similar?

I've been saying that for things like Guardsmen in Drop Pods, but I'm really not sure if Skitarii should be subject to it.

And I'm not just saying that as a Skitarii player. I feel like their units should have been T4 rather than T3 or given a 3+/6(or even 5)++, given the extensive cybernetics.
Effectively they have it on most of the units thanks to their FNP(6's for Vanguard/Rangers, standard FNP of 5+ for Infiltrators/Ruststalkers)...but it still feels like Vanguard/Rangers die waaaaay too easily.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 14:12:57


 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior



Rockwood, TN

My only major opinion is that drop pods should have remained dedicated transports. Having Rhinos, Landraiders, Chimeras, ect available is fine, but all fluff points to drop pods being used only by the Space Marines.
   
 
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