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 gnoise wrote:
IIRC wasn't there the system that links the weapon to the PA that improves the accuracy? Like some camera or something so that the Astartes can better aim?

Autosenses.

I know it was an Abnett book, but wasn't Eisenhorn gifted an Astartes Boltpistol at one point?

Nocturus wrote:
I know it was an Abnett book, but wasn't Eisenhorn gifted an Astartes Boltpistol at one point?

According to one WIki it was a custom built model to a human scale, modified to to be of a size and design a human could use by the Deathwatch, so guessing by its highly elite armory masters so miles from the average model.

 Psienesis wrote:

Given that a Space Marine's hand is bigger than that of most humans, and even bigger in a power armor gauntlet, it makes sense that the weapons designed for him would take this into consideration. Thus, the grip to the boltpistol would be much thicker than that of a boltpistol carried by a Commissar or an Arbiter... unwieldy, yes, but not impossible to operate (people do have two hands, after all, and many shooters will fire a pistol in a two-handed grip).

This. I've handled and fired a few pistols myself and while one wouldn't think of .45 as much larger than 9mm it does add up with a high-capacity magazine. A .45 doublestack is so thick that I have to use both hands for a good grip. I do have quite small hands for a man though.

 jhe90 wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
I know it was an Abnett book, but wasn't Eisenhorn gifted an Astartes Boltpistol at one point?

According to one WIki it was a custom built model to a human scale, modified to to be of a size and design a human could use by the Deathwatch, so guessing by its highly elite armory masters so miles from the average model.

Odd, because I don't recall that being mentioned in the books. Eisenhorn comments in a couple places that he received it from a Space Marine (name of which escapes me for the moment), and laments its loss when it falls under the tracks of the threshing machine on that agri-world, but I don't recall the books going into any detail on its manufacture.

 Psienesis wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
I know it was an Abnett book, but wasn't Eisenhorn gifted an Astartes Boltpistol at one point?

According to one WIki it was a custom built model to a human scale, modified to to be of a size and design a human could use by the Deathwatch, so guessing by its highly elite armory masters so miles from the average model.

Odd, because I don't recall that being mentioned in the books. Eisenhorn comments in a couple places that he received it from a Space Marine (name of which escapes me for the moment), and laments its loss when it falls under the tracks of the threshing machine on that agri-world, but I don't recall the books going into any detail on its manufacture.

I do own the books so have to check but there all in one so not easy to find, however both wiki,s go into detail and match about excluding the obvious one of course.

If they're sourcing that from the 40K wikia, though, it's very suspect, as that site tends to publish fan-fiction as fact.

Psienesis wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
I know it was an Abnett book, but wasn't Eisenhorn gifted an Astartes Boltpistol at one point?

According to one WIki it was a custom built model to a human scale, modified to to be of a size and design a human could use by the Deathwatch, so guessing by its highly elite armory masters so miles from the average model.

Odd, because I don't recall that being mentioned in the books. Eisenhorn comments in a couple places that he received it from a Space Marine (name of which escapes me for the moment), and laments its loss when it falls under the tracks of the threshing machine on that agri-world, but I don't recall the books going into any detail on its manufacture.

Librarian Bryntnoth, and he loses the bolt pistol at the Thracian Gate - its his power sword that's lost on the agri-world.

It's just a regular Astartes bolt pistol. Not custom. Just a bolt pistol a librarian gave him because Gregor's own gun was a pit pants.

That's right, that badass Sollex-pattern power sword... a lightsaber in 40K.

 Psienesis wrote:
If they're sourcing that from the 40K wikia, though, it's very suspect, as that site tends to publish fan-fiction as fact.

That wiki also tends to repost fluff from codices verbatim.

Seriously, compare their Gazghkull page to the Gazghkull supplement.

Lets face it: Its a barely-moderated wiki that gets filled with whatever gak people feel like.

The page for Miriael Sabathiel used to reference Codex: Sisters of Battle (2e), a book that predates her existence, with the page number pointing at a picture that doesn't even have any sisters in it, chaos or otherwise.

 Smacks wrote:
Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.

In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!

Captain America isn't reasonable in the least. He's a bullet timing superhuman capable of rending metal and has even punched out the hulk. Also I once just took all the various sources on Marine height and did a little number crunching for an average. Average Astartes height is 7'6-7'7 or so across all material.

Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm. The only way you could fire such a weapon is with an augmentic limb (although the reactionary force would still cause you to stumble) or by bracing yourself. What you suggest is basically taking the NTW-20, cutting it down to the size of a pistol, and firing it. That will do nasty things to you.

Of course Bolts are two-stage weaponry utilizing both a traditional powder charge to punch it out the barrel with a secondary rocket activating soon after (and probably has some sort of mild guidance system so the gyroget doesn't screw up the aim), but that primary powder charge should still feth somebody up. Even if it's just subsonic, firing a single shot will leave you sore. Multiple shots will probably lead to bruising.

Except Commissars carry bolt-pistols and can fire them without injury. There's also been real-life weapons of that or greater caliber that did not result in broken limbs when fired.

If the Desert Eagle (.50 cal) isn't going to break your wrist when firing it, a bullet only half again as large in a weapon built from space-magic and isn't-this-badassium! with all kinds of magi-tech recoil compensators isn't, either.

Not to mention the sick BS Captain America pulls off with that shield of his.

 Psienesis wrote:
Except Commissars carry bolt-pistols and can fire them without injury. There's also been real-life weapons of that or greater caliber that did not result in broken limbs when fired.

If the Desert Eagle (.50 cal) isn't going to break your wrist when firing it, a bullet only half again as large in a weapon built from space-magic and isn't-this-badassium! with all kinds of magi-tech recoil compensators isn't, either.

We don't know what caliber the bolt pistols of Commissars are. Bolt Gun calibers are all over the place, ranging from .50 to 1.00, and there's lots of odd numbers mixed up in that range. Plus the Commisar's munitions might have a reduced powder to ease the stress on his wrist with more rocket fuel to compensate for the initial lesser velocity.

Also, while there are such high caliber weapons in existence, they're either mounted weapons like flak guns, recoilless rifles, or braced weapons such as the NTW-20. You do not want to fire an NTW-20 one handed standing while holding it up in the air.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Not to mention the sick BS Captain America pulls off with that shield of his.

Vibranium stronk. Crazy thing can slice metal objects in half like they were made of paper. Plus the Cap is infamous for punching outside his weight and surviving. Hell he even one time took down a guy that Thanos considered to be an equal rival. Not only is Captain Murica cray cray, the man would certainly slaughter a Space Marine, and probably send the non-offensive Psyker Primarchs running for the hills.

Looking at fluff stuff I don't see how an "Astartes Bol Pistol" would be very different from any other bolt pistol, if anything it is either a redesignation of an identical weapon or one adapted for Space Marine use, as opposed to say, a fundamental difference in the way a sedan car is to a dump truck.

Sisters of Battle use bolter weapons, and unless these are fundamentally different from the ones Space Marines use (so far reading and looking at pictures don't suggest they are), the only real impediment is usage of power armour.
To that effect, the plain answer would be yes, they can; the detailed answer would probably be "depends on whether power armour is used and what weapon specifically".

flirice wrote:
Looking at fluff stuff I don't see how an "Astartes Bol Pistol" would be very different from any other bolt pistol, if anything it is either a redesignation of an identical weapon or one adapted for Space Marine use, as opposed to say, a fundamental difference in the way a sedan car is to a dump truck.

The marine bolt weapons will have to be a bit bigger and heavier to account for them being big guys in big armor, and their gear will have to be very durable due to the nature of their missions. A regular human should still be able to use one as long as the targeting/security system allows it, ie. it isn't set to only work for linking with the autosenses of PA suit number 221 in the Chapter inventory. It might not be optimal for him - having to use two hands for a bolt pistol means he can't weild a sword too in order to look cool, for example.

Ofc, a targeting system you can't switch off would be a bad idea. Marines get knocked about a lot what with drop pod landings, explosions and such. I'd imagine a good part of tabletop "casualties" isn't dead marines or even wounded marines but marines who lost their gun, or power, or autosenses. They fall back so they can be put back in the battle another day.

Based off the background in the Fantasy Flight Games RPGs Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, there is a difference between astartes and normal bolt weapons - which has since popped up in occasional references in other Black Library novels.

'Normal' bolt weapons like the Sororitas' preferred Godywn-De'az pattern are 0.75 calibre - space marine weapons (the bolter, not the heavy bolter) like the Godwyn pattern is 1.0 calibre. There is a mundane bolter chambered for astartes rounds - the "Angelus", which is massively lethal but only has a three-round magazine....

Note that the Eisenhorn series was written to accompany Inquisitor, a skirmish wargame predating Dark Heresy by a bit, and at the time there wasn't a distinction between mundane and astartes bolt weapons - Deathwatch and the Horus Heresy series have been the big drivers in amping up the difference between humans and space marines to extreme levels.

Recoil-wise, Bolters aren't gyrojet weapons per se. A gyrojet uses a rocket to accelerate itself comparatively gently and stabilize itself in flight rather than being propelled by a 'bang'.

A bolter uses both - a propellant charge commensurate with a 20-25mm cannon round (the sort of thing normally found slung under the nose of a jet or attack helicopter), and then a rocket booster to accelerate it even more.

A normal human in power armour (like battle sisters) could probably manage a Godwyn-pattern, but it'd still be awkward - a lower-calibre weapon like the Godwyn-De'az is more manageable and (according to the Blood of Martyrs and The Enemy Within sourcebooks is more reliable too. Which is probably because it's less overstressed by its calibre, and is probably a good thing because the Ecclesiarchy won't have Mechanicus tech-priests everywhere to do micron-scale maintenance on their hardware.

There have been a few examples of human-firing-astartes-bolter in black library books in the last few years - I think a guardsman at Koth Ridge (Purging of Kadillus) uses a Dark Angel's Bolt Pistol and seriously hurts himself in the process - which seems to be the standard view.

So, yes. The short version is as suggested by Silverthorne: Can a normal human fire an astartes bolter? Yes. Once.

Unless you're Sebastian Yarrick. Who is so bad-ass he can fire a storm bolter one-handed. Which is a weapon normally fitted to a tank as a practical alternative to a pintle-mounted 0.50 cal HMG....

 Psienesis wrote:
Couple of points...

Bolters only come in two calibers: .75 cal for bolt pistols, boltguns, and stormbolters and 1.0 cal for heavy bolters (the mega-bolters on Titans are not at all man-portable and so aren't included here). It's been that way basically forever.

That is not true. Bolters have different calibers depending on pattern. In the Horus Heresy rulebooks, the Tigris pattern has 0.60 cal, while the Phobos pattern uses 0.70 cal. The Ikanos pattern bolt pistol uses 0.50 cal.
The .75 cal for all standard bolter shells comes from Dark Heresy, but I am not sure how canon Dark Heresy is.

Well, FFG is probably more consistent than random novels, so as a 'more consistent' source, I'd go with the Deathwatch RPG rules - and state that human bolters ARE different to Marine ones, and any non-Marine regular bolt-gun user is using a non-Marine bolt-gun.

locarno24 wrote:
Based off the background in the Fantasy Flight Games RPGs Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, there is a difference between astartes and normal bolt weapons - which has since popped up in occasional references in other Black Library novels.

'Normal' bolt weapons like the Sororitas' preferred Godywn-De'az pattern are 0.75 calibre - space marine weapons (the bolter, not the heavy bolter) like the Godwyn pattern is 1.0 calibre. There is a mundane bolter chambered for astartes rounds - the "Angelus", which is massively lethal but only has a three-round magazine....

FFG also make a mockery of the Sisters.

In any case, the Godwyn De'az bolter actually has a slightly longer barrel than the contemporary Godwyn bolters, and are explicitly stated in the Sisters fluff to be just as powerful. Its only FFG - self-admitted space marine fanboys - who are trying to change that, along with working to strip away any credibility the Adepta Sororitas may retain.

Wyzilla wrote:

Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm.

Except the fact that the .75 caliber round would roughly be around the same size as a 12 gauge shotgun slug, which is around 19.25mm if I remember correctly. So any human would have no problem firing the weapon so long as they held it properly. Boltguns typically are shown a bit bigger than they would actually need to be considering the size of the round.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:

Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm.

Except the fact that the .75 caliber round would roughly be around the same size as a 12 gauge shotgun slug, which is around 19.25mm if I remember correctly. So any human would have no problem firing the weapon so long as they held it properly. Boltguns typically are shown a bit bigger than they would actually need to be considering the size of the round.

What? No, most humans would have a lot of trouble handling a 12 gauge in one hand. Might be possible, but you're going to receive some hurt after the first round. Even a .357 gives enough of a pinch being roughly half the size.

Take into account too a shotgun cartridge will not have as high a grain count per round as a standard rifle/pistol cartridge. Of course, all of this real world physics is kind of pointless since it really depends on who the writer is for the particular description of a bolt gun/pistol.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Based off the background in the Fantasy Flight Games RPGs Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, there is a difference between astartes and normal bolt weapons - which has since popped up in occasional references in other Black Library novels.

'Normal' bolt weapons like the Sororitas' preferred Godywn-De'az pattern are 0.75 calibre - space marine weapons (the bolter, not the heavy bolter) like the Godwyn pattern is 1.0 calibre. There is a mundane bolter chambered for astartes rounds - the "Angelus", which is massively lethal but only has a three-round magazine....

FFG also make a mockery of the Sisters.

In any case, the Godwyn De'az bolter actually has a slightly longer barrel than the contemporary Godwyn bolters, and are explicitly stated in the Sisters fluff to be just as powerful. Its only FFG - self-admitted space marine fanboys - who are trying to change that, along with working to strip away any credibility the Adepta Sororitas may retain.

Actually a longer barrel would reduce recoil felt by the shooter if it is significantly longer. IIRC four inches or more adds enough weight that the gun finds it harder to kick, and thus harder to transfer energy into your arm. Which is also probably why nobody else to my knowledge uses stormbolters besides Astartes elite or those wearing TDA. The kick from a stormbolter must be insane.

 clamclaw wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:

Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm.

Except the fact that the .75 caliber round would roughly be around the same size as a 12 gauge shotgun slug, which is around 19.25mm if I remember correctly. So any human would have no problem firing the weapon so long as they held it properly. Boltguns typically are shown a bit bigger than they would actually need to be considering the size of the round.

What? No, most humans would have a lot of trouble handling a 12 gauge in one hand. Might be possible, but you're going to receive some hurt after the first round. Even a .357 gives enough of a pinch being roughly half the size.

Take into account too a shotgun cartridge will not have as high a grain count per round as a standard rifle/pistol cartridge. Of course, all of this real world physics is kind of pointless since it really depends on who the writer is for the particular description of a bolt gun/pistol.

It really wasn't that difficult to fire a 12 gauge one handed, I wouldnt do it often because that is not how you should shoot one. The .357 has hardly a pinch, though I have been shooting large caliber pistols since I was a child. Which would also come into play with Commissars, who have been trained since a youth in the proper handling of firearms. Proper bracing you can do it, and switching to a two handed hold would be optimal of course for any of these situations.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Actually a longer barrel would reduce recoil felt by the shooter if it is significantly longer. IIRC four inches or more adds enough weight that the gun finds it harder to kick, and thus harder to transfer energy into your arm. Which is also probably why nobody else to my knowledge uses stormbolters besides Astartes elite or those wearing TDA. The kick from a stormbolter must be insane.

Or Yarrick, but Yarrick is basically Captain America retired edition, so eh.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
FFG also make a mockery of the Sisters.

Shhh, Paladin, be happy with your class.

Now give me Blessing of Kings!

 Wyzilla wrote:
Captain America isn't reasonable in the least. He's a bullet timing superhuman capable of rending metal and has even punched out the hulk.

Indeed, and all while standing at a modest 6'2". I don't think I ever said he was "reasonable" (whatever that refers to), I said that he was a realistic height for a human, which he is. I don't see anything wrong with marines being that same sort of size.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also I once just took all the various sources on Marine height and did a little number crunching for an average. Average Astartes height is 7'6-7'7 or so across all material.

Are you sure you're not just talking about this topic?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm. The only way you could fire such a weapon is with an augmentic limb (although the reactionary force would still cause you to stumble) or by bracing yourself. What you suggest is basically taking the NTW-20, cutting it down to the size of a pistol, and firing it. That will do nasty things to you.

I didn't suggest anything of the sort. Bolters and heavy bolters are used all over the empire by non-marines, they have always been described and as big, loud, and having a "kick". If the recoil broke people's arms, then I doubt they would be so popular. So either the ammunition is very different to a NTW-20 (which we already know it is), or they have some kind of anti-recoil technology.

If it makes you happy to believe that space marines have much larger, higher calibre bolt pistols that would break ordinary people's arms then go ahead, you can probably find fluff to support that idea. But for me, there is no way they are bigger and higher calibre than a heavy bolter. Necromunda heavies are always depicted firing heavy bolters in their arms, and from the hip or shoulder. So the size and recoil from a marine bolter should be no problem.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Actually a longer barrel would reduce recoil felt by the shooter if it is significantly longer. IIRC four inches or more adds enough weight that the gun finds it harder to kick, and thus harder to transfer energy into your arm.

A longer barrel will increase the amount of force generated by the cartridge though, thus increasing the amount of recoil. Bolters appear to have very short barrels, and bolt pistols look as though the shell loads right in front of the muzzle. It's possible that they need the larger round just to maintain muzzle velocity out of such a sort barrel, and that the recoil isn't significant because the force is able to dissipate after only a few centimetres.

 Psienesis wrote:
Given that a Space Marine's hand is bigger than that of most humans, and even bigger in a power armor gauntlet, it makes sense that the weapons designed for him would take this into consideration. Thus, the grip to the boltpistol would be much thicker than that of a boltpistol carried by a Commissar or an Arbiter...

Whatever writer states that an Astartes boltgun (or pistol) has more recoil than the other models simply doesn't understand how ballistics (or physics) work. A bigger, heavier gun firing the same munition as a smaller, lighter gun has less recoil. Again, Newtonian physics, the Law of Inertia.

This was a great post. I do have a couple of points though; a gauntlet would increase the size of the hand, but it would actually reduce the size of someone's grip since it would add the thickness of the glove to the the radius of anything the marine tried to hold. So a big hand in a gauntlet might actually end up having the same sized grip as a regular hand.

Also, as was mentioned above, a heavier gun firing the same ammunition as a lighter gun might generate more force by virtue of having a longer barrel. If it would be enough o offset the weight, would depend on the forces and the weight of the metals being used. I imagine the imperium have metals that are lighter and stronger than steel.

 Smacks wrote:
Indeed, and all while standing at a modest 6'2". I don't think I ever said he was "reasonable" (whatever that refers to), I said that he was a realistic height for a human, which he is. I don't see anything wrong with marines being that same sort of size.

Well, Marines are always described as giants, superhumanly large.

I don't see anything wrong with Marines being that sort of size.

 Khonsu wrote:

Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false, Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.

That's a matter of personal opinion. For me, it's the ridiculously tall and huge demigods which are boring an dull.

A bunch of physically imposing, incredibly well trained and geared, elite soldiers who have been heavily indoctrinated into believing themselves to be ridiculously tall and huge demigods, only to walk into their first battlefield and get crushed by anything AP3 or either a great volume of fire, the losses of each battle slowly eroding the self-confidence and belief of some of them until certain warp entities begin to answer all their questions... that's more interesting to me.

 Korinov wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:

Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false, Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.

That's a matter of personal opinion. For me, it's the ridiculously tall and huge demigods which are boring an dull.

A bunch of physically imposing, incredibly well trained and geared, elite soldiers who have been heavily indoctrinated into believing themselves to be ridiculously tall and huge demigods, only to walk into their first battlefield and get crushed by anything AP3 or either a great volume of fire, the losses of each battle slowly eroding the self-confidence and belief of some of them until certain warp entities begin to answer all their questions... that's more interesting to me.

I dunno. I find the Pacific Rim-esque path far more interesting.

'To fight monsters, we created monsters.'