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Wyzilla wrote:Actually a longer barrel would reduce recoil felt by the shooter if it is significantly longer. IIRC four inches or more adds enough weight that the gun finds it harder to kick, and thus harder to transfer energy into your arm. Which is also probably why nobody else to my knowledge uses stormbolters besides Astartes elite or those wearing TDA. The kick from a stormbolter must be insane.

Astartes, Terminators, Yarrick... and regular Battle Sisters (although never on the table except sergeants). We can probably thank the power armour for that though.

Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
FFG also make a mockery of the Sisters.

Shhh, Paladin, be happy with your class.

Now give me Blessing of Kings!

But I'm a Monk...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well, Marines are always described as giants, superhumanly large.

I don't see anything wrong with Marines being that sort of size.

Yes, I remember from previous conversations that you prefer marines to be in the 9 foot range. I think that's an equally valid view, so long as a person has thought it all the way through. My only concern is that people don't, and exclaim "9 foot tall" without really grasping just how insanely big that would be if you saw it, or the number of problems it would cause in terms of practicality. But I'm convinced now that you have thought it through, and that's just how you like it, which is good. Who am I to stand in the way of someone enjoying 40k with 9 foot tall marines.

Personally, I think comparatively smaller heights, such as 6'4", are more than enough the get people labelled "giant". I have a friend who is 6'4" and heavy built, and it's like talking to a building. I have another friend who is 6'8" and in all the times we've been out, I only remember one time seeing someone taller. If marines were frequently in the 6'5"~6'7" range and heavily built then it would be little wonder that they are referred to as giants and superhumanly large, without needing to get anywhere near 7 foot, let alone 9.

 Smacks wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Captain America isn't reasonable in the least. He's a bullet timing superhuman capable of rending metal and has even punched out the hulk.

Indeed, and all while standing at a modest 6'2". I don't think I ever said he was "reasonable" (whatever that refers to), I said that he was a realistic height for a human, which he is. I don't see anything wrong with marines being that same sort of size.

Cap ain't 6'2, that was just before the Super Serum. After the treatment he's probably close to seven feet, something like 6'10 or so, possibly taller depending on the scaling from some panels.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also I once just took all the various sources on Marine height and did a little number crunching for an average. Average Astartes height is 7'6-7'7 or so across all material.

Are you sure you're not just talking about this topic?

 Wyzilla wrote:


It's a .75 caliber munition being launched out of the barrel at supersonic speeds (it's definitely supersonic as I recall no mention of there being a delayed sonic boom, the BANG of a gunshot. So the kicker charge that sends the bolt out of the barrel is definitely over 340m/s with the rocket activating later and carrying it forward at a supersonic velocity), that will injure you if fired one handed, especially with a short barrel. I also don't recall any recoil reduction for bolters, they seem to just slap more mass on with the hope of weight down the weapon so it doesn't break or knock you on your ass.

Except that you know there are subsonic rounds that still go BANG. Because the BANG is from the powder going off when you pull the trigger, the CRACK is from the round breaking the sound barrier, hence the BANG-CRACK. Now a Boltgun goes BANG-FWOOSH from the powder of the casing to propel the shell from the barrel (BANG) and then the rocket igniting (FWOOSH). So its entirely possible that the boltgun fires initially as a subsonic round, like a shotgun slug or your average .45 round. Now using the slug example because the shotgun's brass and that of the boltgun as shown in drawings is very similar, wouldn't be all that difficult to fire for a normal human, ill advised one handed, but not impossible.

Non-Astartes pattern Bolt-Pistols may very well have recoil damping/reducing features to it, and while the Astartes pattern may or may not the weight of it, would provide a considerable amount of recoil control for the human wielder.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
and regular Battle Sisters (although never on the table except sergeants

Uh, what? Sergeants with storm bolters? Why? Why why why?

 Smacks wrote:


Personally, I think comparatively smaller heights, such as 6'4", are more than enough the get people labelled "giant". I have a friend who is 6'4" and heavy built, and it's like talking to a building. I have another friend who is 6'8" and in all the times we've been out, I only remember one time seeing someone taller. If marines were frequently in the 6'5"~6'7" range and heavily built then it would be little wonder that they are referred to as giants and superhumanly large, without needing to get anywhere near 7 foot, let alone 9.

I dunno.



Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is 6'10" and pretty beefy, but I would not really call him a giant.

That's because you're not there standing next to him in that picture. Faced with him in real life, you would be like "holy feth, that dude is huge!"

I mean, look at the sword he's got there. It's almost as tall as Lena Headey standing there, who's 5'5" tall. That's a fethin' huge sword! In fact, if it wasn't held at a slight angle, I can't guarantee that it wouldn't be as tall or taller than she is!

 Psienesis wrote:
That's because you're not there standing next to him in that picture. Faced with him in real life, you would be like "holy feth, that dude is huge!"

I mean, look at the sword he's got there. It's almost as tall as Lena Headey standing there, who's 5'5" tall. That's a fethin' huge sword! In fact, if it wasn't held at a slight angle, I can't guarantee that it wouldn't be as tall or taller than she is!

That's not remarkable. That's a slightly smaller Zweihander, they were wielded by the elite of German pike blocks in the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance. Also note that the sword is probably a prop and not the same weight of the real deal, and even by a man of his stature, would not be wielded one-handed properly. The Mountain of the books is far taller, and is so large he actually can wield a zweihander as a one handed weapon.

Also, the actor isn't a giant. Six feet plus is no longer remarkable these days. But this man is a giant.

In the books, Gregor Clegane is closer to 8'.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In the books, Gregor Clegane is 8'.

Honestly now we all know the space marine height is so fethin inconsistent that its just silly.

I think its realistic to think of most earth like planet space marines as 6-7. its also possible that off world or low gravity planets might see marines get to 7-9 feet.

Arent Grey knights from titan supposed to be hilariously short because of the high gravity?

Edit: Oh i just realized what you are talking about i cant brains right now.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also note that the sword is probably a prop and not the same weight of the real deal, and even by a man of his stature, would not be wielded one-handed properly.

A plastic prop would be lighter, sure. But metal wallhanger replicas frequently weigh 3-4 times as much as a proper sword to make up for it. The Germans called anything above about 3.2 kilograms a parade sword. Ceremonial stuff unsuited for battle. The reason you don't normally weild a zweihander with one hand isn't the weight as much as the length and intended use.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also note that the sword is probably a prop and not the same weight of the real deal, and even by a man of his stature, would not be wielded one-handed properly.

A plastic prop would be lighter, sure. But metal wallhanger replicas frequently weigh 3-4 times as much as a proper sword to make up for it. The Germans called anything above about 3.2 kilograms a parade sword. Ceremonial stuff unsuited for battle. The reason you don't normally weild a zweihander with one hand isn't the weight as much as the length and intended use.

No, length is an issue as it affects the balance. Without two hands you aren't really going to be swinging a zweihander, although you don't even swing a zweihander that much to begin with. Crazy swords have more in common with a polearm than a normal blade.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Cap ain't 6'2, that was just before the Super Serum. After the treatment he's probably close to seven feet, something like 6'10 or so, possibly taller depending on the scaling from some panels.

http://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_%28Steve_Rogers%29

His official height is 6'2", according to Marvel, and it has always been. I remeber playing Marvel top trumps as a kid, and that was his height. The actor who plays him in the movies is also about 6'2" and you can see how tall he is compared to other people.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's a .75 caliber munition being launched out of the barrel at supersonic speeds (it's definitely supersonic as I recall no mention of there being a delayed sonic boom, the BANG of a gunshot. So the kicker charge that sends the bolt out of the barrel is definitely over 340m/s

That's far from "definitive", sounds more like wild speculation based on not-science. The "bang" of a gunshot is caused my the propellant exploding. Even if there was a delayed sonic crack, the timescales involved would be so short, it would be impossible to distinguish it from the initial bang, even if it happened many meters clear of the muzzle. Also the shells might never go supersonic, they are usually described "whizzing" past, not "cracking" like supersonic bullets. It's a heavy round that explodes on impact, and has its own propulsion system, there really is no need for it to have a supersonic muzzle velocity in order to travel far and do damage.

 Wyzilla wrote:
that will injure you if fired one handed.

And yet, everyone in 40k manages to stay miraculously uninjured while firing them. So it's probable that a .75 calibre bolt round is completely different to a .75 calibre bullet. In the same way a 40mm grenade launcher is completely different to a 40mm gun. The recoil from a 40mm gun would definitely kill you if you were standing behind it, yet a 40mm grenade launcher has very little recoil. You are comparing apples and oranges.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's more likely that Necromunda humans are mutants with denser bones.

Oh please! If you need to retcon the entire background to make your point, then you're probably clutching at straws. What is "more likely"? that every ganger and cultists in the background with a bolt pistol has mysterious marine-like "superhuman" strength? (which somewhat undermines the idea of marines needing bigger guns). Or is it more likely that superhuman strength it not required to fire a bolter, and that a person who has never seen one first hand (and only read about them in stories) is just wrong about how much recoil they have? I think the later is more likely, and requires far fewer assumptions.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Although they're not that good of an example considering that the Necromunda Heavy is no longer even in production. It's a dead line.

Not a good example because it's OOP or because it doesn't fit your argument? Necromunda is still a big part of the background, and gets referenced all the time here.


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 Ashiraya wrote:
Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is 6'10" and pretty beefy, but I would not really call him a giant.

People usually aren't as impressive in photographs, and it's hard to get a sense of scale. Seeing a photo of a man and a woman together, where the man is taller than the woman... That's like almost every couples photo.

But Lena Heady is quite tall. There are other pictures of him where he looks a lot bigger.
I think he certainly qualifies as standing "head and shoulders" above regular people. I think he looks huge, and even he isn't quite 7 foot. Imagine if he was nine foot. That woman would only come up to his knee.

Actually it is highly likely humanity has evolved significantly over the past thirty-eight thousand years, becoming significantly stronger in comparison to the original Homo sapiens located on old Terra during the second millennium. This is of course compounded by the fact that during the Dark Age of Technology humanity practiced genetic engineering for its colonists, leading to the creation of Ogryns, Felinids, Ratlings, Pelagers, etc.

Most damning of all is simply the weight of the average weapons in 40K. People tend to completely forget that by modern standards, an Imperial Guardsmen Sergeant would be peak human. Mortal chainswords seem to weigh in at around six kilograms, which is pretty absurd when you realize that Imperial Guard Sergeants will slug it out in what is more or less constant battle for a couple hours at a time. This is forgetting that the weapon in question vibrates from the motor powering the sword's teeth, meaning it will further strain you.

So even your bog-standard 40K human is still notably fitter and stronger than the modern day human being considering that they can even use a six kilogram sword for any significant duration. And knowing the Munitorium, there's probably heavier examples. Just for example though, the Zweihander, among the largest swords that ever saw the field of battle, weighed in at a pitiful 2-3 kilograms in comparison to chain weapons. And given the history of warfare, probably used for just spurts of melee battle instead of having of fight off endless waves of Orks on Armageddon.


So yes, by simple evolution and genetic engineering, 40K Humans =/= Standard modern day humans. 40K humanity lifts.

IMO, Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson isn't a Space Marine. He is a Catachan.

@Ashiraya

Here is some food for thought about «giant» Space Marines. In the Bible, David, then a 15 years old boy of small stature, is the only men brave enough in the israeli army to accept the challenge agains the Philistan giant Goliath in what will become the most famous duel of mythologie. Goliath actual size varies from translation to another, but in the eldest copie of the storie ever found (in the dead sea scrolls), he mesures 1m95 centimeters (after coversion from the Egyptian unit of measure which was also used by the Israeli).

He is still described has a giant, not just a very tall men, an actual giant. Yet, 1m95 is six inches short to a Space Marine. If Goliath can be a giant, so can Space Marines. When GW write something, they always are careful to say that it might just be legend, propaganda or truth. It's much like the Bible which can be taken as truth, embelished history or myth.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
and regular Battle Sisters (although never on the table except sergeants

Uh, what? Sergeants with storm bolters? Why? Why why why?

Retributors mostly.

Also, I am six foot one, and that's plenty giant enough for me :p

 Wyzilla wrote:
chainswords seem to weigh in at around six kilograms.

You don't know that. They might weigh 6kg if they were made from steel, but 40k has other metals that might be lighter. Also weight depends on what planet you are on. Earth is actually quite large for a rocky planet, and probably somewhat rare. On Mars that 6kg would only be 2kg, and possibly lighter still if it were plasteel. Of course, everything being lighter might also effect recoil. I'd be curious to see what would happen if someone fired a handgun on Mars. On one hand your body would be significantly lighter, so it would be easy to get lifted off your feet. On the other hand the bullet would also be lighter too which might reduce the force in the opposite direction, though the amount of powder would be the same... It might be hilariously over the top. The speed of sound also changes with air density (though humans can only survive in a narrow range of pressures).

As for "normal people" in 40k being stronger and taller than "normal people" today, I don't think it makes any difference. We have no means of comparing marines to modern people, we can only compare them with "regular" people from their own time. Everything is relative. If space marines are 20% larger than the "average" person in 40k. Then that means the average person will see them the same way we see someone who is around 7 foot. It could be that their 5'10" is our 7", so space marines are actually 8'4", but since we'll never meet one, it's completely moot.

This also applies to weapons. You can't say that regular people in 40k aren't strong enough to fire an astartes bolter without breaking their arm, and then in the same breath say that regular people in 40k are strong enough to fire heavy bolters because they have mutated. You then flick between the two meanings of "normal" depending on what suites you.

If everyone in 40k is bigger and stronger, then that is the same as no one being bigger and stronger. There would be no need for marines to have bigger weapons etc... as they would use the same stuff as the regular big strong people.

If it's only marines that are bigger and stronger (which is the same as everyone being stronger, but marines more so), and marines have bigger guns, which "normal" people can't use, then that doesn't explain why some normal people can pick up and fire a heavy bolter.

 Ashiraya wrote:
IMO, Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson isn't a Space Marine. He is a Catachan.

This kind of leans towards the idea of "everyone" being bigger. which is the kind of the same as marines being smaller... (relatively speaking). I always think of Catachans as being like Rambo or Arnnie... Stallone is like 5'9"

 Smacks wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
chainswords seem to weigh in at around six kilograms.

You don't know that. They might weigh 6kg if they were made from steel, but 40k has other metals that might be lighter. Also weight depends on what planet you are on. Earth is actually quite large for a rocky planet, and probably somewhat rare. On Mars that 6kg would only be 2kg, and possibly lighter still if it were plasteel. Of course, everything being lighter might also effect recoil. I'd be curious to see what would happen if someone fired a handgun on Mars. On one hand your body would be significantly lighter, so it would be easy to get lifted off your feet. On the other hand the bullet would also be lighter too which might reduce the force in the opposite direction, though the amount of powder would be the same... It might be hilariously over the top. The speed of sound also changes with air density (though humans can only survive in a narrow range of pressures).

As for "normal people" in 40k being stronger and taller than "normal people" today, I don't think it makes any difference. We have no means of comparing marines to modern people, we can only compare them with "regular" people from their own time. Everything is relative. If space marines are 20% larger than the "average" person in 40k. Then that means the average person will see them the same way we see someone who is around 7 foot. It could be that their 5'10" is our 7", so space marines are actually 8'4", but since we'll never meet one, it's completely moot.

This also applies to weapons. You can't say that regular people in 40k aren't strong enough to fire an astartes bolter without breaking their arm, and then in the same breath say that regular people in 40k are strong enough to fire heavy bolters because they have mutated. You then flick between the two meanings of "normal" depending on what suites you.

If everyone in 40k is bigger and stronger, then that is the same as no one being bigger and stronger. There would be no need for marines to have bigger weapons etc... as they would use the same stuff as the regular big strung people.

If it's only marines that are bigger and stronger (which is the same as everyone being stronger, but marines more so), and marines have bigger guns, which "normal" people can't use, then that doesn't explain why some normal people can pick up and fire a heavy bolter.

 Ashiraya wrote:
IMO, Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson isn't a Space Marine. He is a Catachan.

This kind of leans towards the idea of "everyone" being bigger. which is the kind of the same as marines being smaller... (relatively speaking). I always think of Catachans as being like Rambo or Arnnie... Stallone is like 5'9"

What the hell is with this potential alloy nonsense? The stated weight for one model of mortal chainswords is six kilograms. This isn't some matter of debate, this is a solid figure that states a common blade weighs over ten freaking pounds. And it is also to my knowledge, the only stated weight for a chainsword, although I'll have to see if a friend can check his FFG books for any more stats. But irregardless, chainswords are abnormally heavy, and it would take abnormal men to wield them.

Plus there's no reason to believe the Imperium utilizes any lighter alien future alloys when most of their stuff is extremely heavy. Boltguns are complete bricks compared to something like the XM25 or even the M60. The only exception I can think of is plasteel, but that's specifically used in armor, not weapons. Also, bolters would still stand a risk of injuring people firing them without power armor, especially on full auto.

Also, again, without knowing the powder or caliber of what weapons they're using, a guardsmen heavy bolter could very well be weaker in terms of initial velocity to save the arms of its user and in turn packing more rocket fuel. Like with all things in 40K, boltguns are heavily variable with their calibers bouncing all over the damn place. There's certainly though no reason to believe that the old Catachan Guardsmen character is actually wielding a fully automatic 25.5mm autocannon.

And Bolters have more in common with bullets than 20mm or 40mm grenade launchers which, critical thing here, are typically subsonic. Bolters meanwhile can go all the way up the hypersonic range, although typically are stuck in the supersonic range. Plus given the nature of a mass reactive round... they will function more like a bullet. In order for the round to do its job and detonate on the inside, it requires direct kinetic energy to pierce its target. This is not something like 40mm grenades do, at all. Last I checked your standard grenade launcher relies almost entirely on explosive force to deal its damage rather then raw penetration. Truthfully the bolter is more like a miniaturized tank munitiion in how it acts.

Even if you're a peak human, you would not want to fire these kinds of weapons unbraced

 Wyzilla wrote:
This isn't some matter of debate, this is a solid figure that states a common blade weighs over ten freaking pounds.

So what? You said yourself a regular person couldn't wield that all day, so either the source is exaggerating, or you've proven that non-marines are significantly stronger than people today. Which contradicts your other argument when you said a non-marine would not be able to fire an astartes bolter without injuring themselves (even though they can fire heavy bolters). You can't have your cake, and eat it. Your arguments are contradicting each other. It's apparent that both hive dwellers and marines are strong enough to lift and fire large bolters. Either you concede that hive dwellers are as strong as marines, or you concede that bolters don't require marine strength to cope with the recoil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And Bolters have more in common with bullets than 20mm or 40mm grenade launchers

I didn't say bolters had anything in common with grenade launchers. I was just pointing out that you can't infer anything about recoil just from the calibre of a round. 40mm is a huge round, if you confused it with a bullet calibre then you would end up concluding that a round like that would rip your arms off. But in fact, they have almost no recoil.

You're doing exactly the same thing with the bolter. You don't know how it works, why it's so big, how much charge it has. You're just assuming it works like something you know, and then arriving at the conclusion that it has huge recoil and would break arms, even though the background doesn't seem to support that.

Everyone here knows far more then I do, so I'm curios to see where all this goes.

I'd disregard FFG material, their take on 40K deviates from the GW studio fluff significantly.

Anyway, I believe that Astartes bolters and IG bolters are roughly same size and a strong human can fire Astartes bolter just fine. There are some models of regular humans with bolters and they're identical to the Space Marine weapons. Interestingly Marine pistols on models are significantly larger than bolt pistols wielded by regular humans. My theory is that Astartes bolt pistols are more like submachine guns rather than regular pistols.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Also, again, without knowing the powder or caliber of what weapons they're using, a guardsmen heavy bolter could very well be weaker in terms of initial velocity to save the arms of its user and in turn packing more rocket fuel. Like with all things in 40K, boltguns are heavily variable with their calibers bouncing all over the damn place. There's certainly though no reason to believe that the old Catachan Guardsmen character is actually wielding a fully automatic 25.5mm autocannon.

Just like to point out that, with the exception of the Necromunda guy, Harker and Brag, everyone not in power armour treats a heavy bolter as a crew-served weapon on a tripod or bipod mount... and Brag is noted to be freaken massive to the point where people joke about him being half-Ogryn.

Agreed. The Heavy Bolter is not meant to be a one-man-portable weapon to anyone normal, and there's a reason why storm bolters, equally, are always carried either by a man or woman in powered plate or pintle-mounted to a tank.

(Aside from Yarrick).

Oh, and the FFG sourcebooks also use a figure of 6 kg for a normal chainsword, up to about 15kg for a double-handed weapon like an eviscerator. Repentia are strong

Oh, and Dark Heresy 2nd edition has substantially toned down the 'twinkly space magic' side of the Adepta Sororitas that (to be honest) largely started creeping in with the Black Industries produced Inqusitor's Handbook. Yes, adepta sororitas weren't a straight match for space marines but they murder wholesale anything short of such, and an equivalent XP character - a Sororitas Palatine - can hand a space marine his ass if equipped with the right talents and gear, even in a fair fight.

Space Marines were never super large in Rogue Trader... they were no different to average height.. bolters were normal sized.. in fact all a space marine was was a human " champion" i.e. the same profile an Imperial Guardsman champion was.. only smurfy had a better gun and a better armour.

The whole idea was an army of "human champions"

The rest got retconned in by idiots who never had a good idea in their life

ConanMan wrote:
Space Marines were never super large in Rogue Trader... they were no different to average height.. bolters were normal sized.. in fact all a space marine was was a human " champion" i.e. the same profile an Imperial Guardsman champion was.. only smurfy had a better gun and a better armour.

The whole idea was an army of "human champions"

The rest got retconned in by idiots who never had a good idea in their life

Huh, what? I mean, I get that Rouge Trader had a different version of space marines but I think a lot of people see the change in space marines from "big guy in armor" to "genetically modified super soldier" as a good thing. From a table top and galaxy expanding viewpoint it was a smart move to make space marines stand out more. Otherwise what would be the difference from fielding IG to SM?

Besides, this thread points out (round-and-round) that depending on the author a space marine and boltgun can vary to a huge degree. Some fluff is more consistent such as the new Horus Heresy novels, but obviously you can find some crazy examples in old codex's.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In the books, Gregor Clegane is closer to 8'.

Did you draw that yourself?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Retributors mostly.

Yeah, but 5 points! The only way for it to make sense is if you have converted some really good-looking models for SSV with stormbolters.

 Smacks wrote:
I'd be curious to see what would happen if someone fired a handgun on Mars. On one hand your body would be significantly lighter, so it would be easy to get lifted off your feet. On the other hand the bullet would also be lighter too which might reduce the force in the opposite direction, though the amount of powder would be the same...

The mass will be the same. Therefore, same quantity of energy, same inertia, the bullet goes out at the same speed, and you get the same amount of energy transfered to your arm. The weight, i.e. how strongly you are pushed toward the ground, will be lower. So if you shoot at the ground next to your feet, you will be lifted higher. If you shoot at the sky, there will be literally no difference.

I'm not sure where you get the 'FFG write utter garbage that doesn't gel with GW' theory from, seeing that a) the RPG line was originally produced by BL, and FFG just took over existing material, b) everything put out by FFG has to be sanctioned by GW as in line with the canon/fluff as GW see it c) see b really.

So, as far as GW are concerned, what FFG say is what GW say, and FFG say that marine spec bolters/bolt pistols/heavy bolters and the normal human equivalent are NOT the same thing - the Astartes ones ARE bigger/heavier/more powerful.


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Further, I'd hesitate going too far back in the fluff to find examples - especially Rogue Trader (which I remember well when it came out.) If you do that, you unleash other stuff such as ....Female Marines (Sister Sin and chums) who acted as police to the other Marines, Leman Russ as an Imperial Army commander, Zoats, bolters firing "a hail of small calibre shells" and other stuff that just doesn't gel with the current storyline. In fact, I'm not even sure when bolters being a large calibre weapon was even retconned in - but I sure as hell remember that it was after Space Marine (epic) was out.

 Wyzilla wrote:


And Bolters have more in common with bullets than 20mm or 40mm grenade launchers which, critical thing here, are typically subsonic. Bolters meanwhile can go all the way up the hypersonic range, although typically are stuck in the supersonic range. Plus given the nature of a mass reactive round... they will function more like a bullet. In order for the round to do its job and detonate on the inside, it requires direct kinetic energy to pierce its target. This is not something like 40mm grenades do, at all. Last I checked your standard grenade launcher relies almost entirely on explosive force to deal its damage rather then raw penetration. Truthfully the bolter is more like a miniaturized tank munitiion in how it acts.

Even if you're a peak human, you would not want to fire these kinds of weapons unbraced

Again, the boltgun's initial firing (for the standard shell) can, and likely would be subsonic, but the rocket ignition after leaving the barrel would be so fast, that the weapon would certainly reach subsonic. Also judging off the design of a boltshell it would have more in common with a shotgun slug than a standard rifle round.

So its like if you took a Slug, a Rocket and a APHE 20mm Cannon round, then crammed them into one round.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Smacks wrote:


Personally, I think comparatively smaller heights, such as 6'4", are more than enough the get people labelled "giant". I have a friend who is 6'4" and heavy built, and it's like talking to a building. I have another friend who is 6'8" and in all the times we've been out, I only remember one time seeing someone taller. If marines were frequently in the 6'5"~6'7" range and heavily built then it would be little wonder that they are referred to as giants and superhumanly large, without needing to get anywhere near 7 foot, let alone 9.

I dunno.

Spoiler:

Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is 6'10" and pretty beefy, but I would not really call him a giant.

I would, were it not that 2 metres is far from a rare height in the Netherlands (the average height here is about 6'2"). One of my friends is 14 and already 2.04 meters (6'9") tall (which makes for hilarious situations considering that I am only 1.58 (5'2") and actually older than him)
In any case, 6'5'''-6'7''' would make for really tiny giants.

Personally, I have always thought average Space Marine height to vary from 2.2(7'2") to 2.5m(8'2") on average. They definitely should be above heights that can be normally reached by ordinary humans.