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 j31c3n wrote:
> compare new SM units and weapons to supposed lack of new CSM units and weapons
> conveniently forget about khorne lord of skulls, heldrake, forgefiend, maulerfiend, defilier, helbrute, obliterators, mutilators, warp talons, warpsmiths, dark apostles, the new cypher rules and dataslate, and probably some other stuff as well

I know Chaos doesn't receive NEARLY as much love as the Loyalists, but this kind of complaining makes it seem like Chaos and not the Soriitas are the most neglected Codex faction. Yeah, I wanna see Chaos Legion Tactics and CSM with graviton weapons too. But this kind of nonsense isn't helping.

The list left out the Lord of Skulls, Helldrake, Forgefield, Maulerfiend, "Hellbrute", and Mutilators for the same reason it left out Centurions and Storm Guppies for the loyalists - it wasn't a post about about weird new units with tonka-toy models that no one asked for.

Incidentally Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles are a great example of one thing GW should be doing with CSM - exploring the ways in which the original traitors (or new renegades) became corrupted, fleshing out their options to better match their loyalist counterparts, and simultaneously providing the units needed to represent the legions people want so badly. They also help prove the point of the guy you responded to - it took far, far too long for GW to get around to properly providing some crucial options for Chaos Marines.

As much as GW really wants to make Chaos Marines super-distinct from loyalists by turning them into Codex: Dinobots and Daemons, I think it's reasonable to point a lot of people who buy Codex: Chaos Space Marines actually want to play Chaos Space Marines. Loyalists seem to constantly get new bits and bobs and nice little rules to explore the intricacies of a bunch of relatively similar chapters. Meanwhile CSM are left to try to assemble a range of very dissimilar armies from an increasingly small bucket of legos (whose molds, by the way, are in dire need of replacement), plus now a bunch of robot dinosaur toys no one asked for at all.

Yes, Sisters of Battle have even more reason to complain, but I think you really missed the point of that guy's post.

Fun fact - Exarchs aren't Officers.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
> compare new SM units and weapons to supposed lack of new CSM units and weapons
> conveniently forget about khorne lord of skulls, heldrake, forgefiend, maulerfiend, defilier, helbrute, obliterators, mutilators, warp talons, warpsmiths, dark apostles, the new cypher rules and dataslate, and probably some other stuff as well

I know Chaos doesn't receive NEARLY as much love as the Loyalists, but this kind of complaining makes it seem like Chaos and not the Soriitas are the most neglected Codex faction. Yeah, I wanna see Chaos Legion Tactics and CSM with graviton weapons too. But this kind of nonsense isn't helping.

The list left out the Lord of Skulls, Helldrake, Forgefield, Maulerfiend, "Hellbrute", and Mutilators for the same reason it left out Centurions and Storm Guppies for the loyalists - it wasn't a post about about garbage new units with tonka-toy models that no one asked for.

Incidentally Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles are a great example of what GW should be doing with CSM - exploring the ways in which the original traitors (or new renegades) became corrupted, fleshing out their options to better match their loyalist counterparts, and simultaneously providing the units needed to represent the legions people want so badly (because thanks in no small part to the Dark Apostle and Warpsmith units, you can actually put together reasonably thematic Iron Warriors or Word Bearers armies).

He didn't leave out Centurions. He mentioned Grav-Cannons as one of the things it was unfair they weren't getting, and those are exclusively carried by Centurions.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

As much as GW really wants to make Chaos Marines super-distinct from loyalists by turning them into Codex: Dinobots and Daemons, I think it's reasonable to point a lot of people who buy Codex: Chaos Space Marines actually want to play Chaos Space Marines. Loyalists seem to constantly get new bits and bobs and nice little rules to explore the intricacies of a bunch of relatively similar chapters. Meanwhile CSM are left to try to assemble a range of very dissimilar armies from an increasingly small bucket of legos (whose molds, by the way, are in dire need of replacement), plus now a bunch of robot dinosaur toys no one asked for at all.

Yes, Sisters of Battle have even more reason to complain, but I think you really missed the point of that guy's post.

You refuse to bundle CSM with Codex: Daemons, but you bundle all loyalist chapters as "loyalists." Did you mean "Codex: Space Marines"? Because like you say, some people actually want to play their own codex and that's no different for "loyalists."

 Purifier wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
> compare new SM units and weapons to supposed lack of new CSM units and weapons
> conveniently forget about khorne lord of skulls, heldrake, forgefiend, maulerfiend, defilier, helbrute, obliterators, mutilators, warp talons, warpsmiths, dark apostles, the new cypher rules and dataslate, and probably some other stuff as well

I know Chaos doesn't receive NEARLY as much love as the Loyalists, but this kind of complaining makes it seem like Chaos and not the Soriitas are the most neglected Codex faction. Yeah, I wanna see Chaos Legion Tactics and CSM with graviton weapons too. But this kind of nonsense isn't helping.

The list left out the Lord of Skulls, Helldrake, Forgefield, Maulerfiend, "Hellbrute", and Mutilators for the same reason it left out Centurions and Storm Guppies for the loyalists - it wasn't a post about about garbage new units with tonka-toy models that no one asked for.

Incidentally Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles are a great example of what GW should be doing with CSM - exploring the ways in which the original traitors (or new renegades) became corrupted, fleshing out their options to better match their loyalist counterparts, and simultaneously providing the units needed to represent the legions people want so badly (because thanks in no small part to the Dark Apostle and Warpsmith units, you can actually put together reasonably thematic Iron Warriors or Word Bearers armies).

He didn't leave out Centurions. He mentioned Grav-Cannons as one of the things it was unfair they weren't getting, and those are exclusively carried by Centurions."

I did not ever mention Grav Cents, but thanks for putting words in my mouth - I've come to expect it from over-entitled Loyalist Marine players.

I simply mentioned the sheer variety of 'new' weapons Loyalists have been given and/or old school options such as the Hand & Heavy Flamers that have been returned to Loyalists from 2nd edition. (which btw, Chaos Marines had as well, only for some reason, we've suddenly misplaced every last one of them?!)

Loyalists are now getting Grav Cannons moved to basic Marines. (confirmed to at least be options for Devastator squads, likely to be taken as well by Tacticals & Sterns too.) So yes, saying "Loyalists get Grav Cannons" is 100% truthful and not just a "Loyalists have Grav-Cents"


Chaos Marines have been left to rot ever since the power gaming abomination that was the 3.5 ed codex.
Yes, we've had more Daemon Engines brought in - something I've really enjoyed, especially as a way to run an expanded 'Daemons' army. But the point still stands, that outside of the newer engines, there's nothing really exciting or 'cool' about Chaos Marines anymore. It's just the same monotonous, stale options for going on 17 years now.

Chaos Marines are deserving of new toys too, even if the many vocal Loyalist elitists think otherwise.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I simply mentioned the sheer variety of 'new' weapons Loyalists have been given and/or old school options such as the Hand & Heavy Flamers that have been returned to Loyalists from 2nd edition.

Those should have stayed with Sisters. Flamethrower are our thing.

Experiment 626 wrote:
But the point still stands, that outside of the newer engines, there's nothing really exciting or 'cool' about Chaos Marines anymore. It's just the same monotonous, stale options for going on 17 years now.

Warp talons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Even Sisters have gotten more new unit toys than we have!

You kidding, right? We got literally nothing new for the last 12 years! We have way less than CSM. We have way less than CSM had 12 years ago.

Getting the eviscerators on regular squaddies is nice, but what the eviscerators can do can be covered by power axes, krak, and melts bombs. For a lot less in points too.

The value of ASM eviscerators isn't in combat against other assault units, its in tank hunting. Twice as reliable as melta bombs.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The value of ASM eviscerators isn't in combat against other assault units, its in tank hunting. Twice as reliable as melta bombs.

For five times the cost. That’s what gets me. And a large chunk of vehicles are AV10 rear, so krack grenades work fine. Good vs. walkers though.

Although, being pure armorbane, it cuts right through ceremite. So it has that going for it.

I just don’t think the pros justify the cost. Although we just have a snapshot of one unit at this point. There might be other things that make it more attractive.

Because for some genius reason, they've given them at Independet Character prices.

Also, I guess most of my Eviscerator experience is with Repentia, who always have at least four, and usually eight attacks (from the two remaining models after the other eight died getting to I1)... which shreds Knights handily.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

ragazzacane wrote:

You can put as many words in my mouth as you want, I just want an Autarch with AP2 in melee.

Autarch, meet Archon, Archon, Autarch. Now you've caught up, wanna go cry together in a corner about our lack of AP 2 weaponry despite being the one of most advanced race in the setting? I can't even get a Power Axe for Feths sake, everyone else can at least get a Power Axe. Oh look, there are my Incubi body guard with Str +1 Ap 2 weaponry, but i can't have that. Hey, there is my Ex-Girlfriend Alara the Succbus, also walking around with that spiffing new Archite Glaive, but i can't get them either. Sigh, at least i found a new job.

--Puts up advert on the World Wide Webway; reads--

Cheap reliable taxi service for Craftworlders, the best on the Skein at pin-point drops and 2++ Invulnerable saves*.

*Fortune not included.

This just made my day.

Sadly, I could only exalt it once.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Because for some genius reason, they've given them at Independet Character prices.

Also, I guess most of my Eviscerator experience is with Repentia, who always have at least four, and usually eight attacks (from the two remaining models after the other eight died getting to I1)... which shreds Knights handily.

I really liked the 4th edition set up where wargear had two prices, one for 1W models, and another for multiwound ones. Made a lot more sense. You put a giant tank-shreding chainsword on a chapter master on a bike, he’s going to carve a path of destruction across the table. Put it on bob the assault marine, he’s going to cop it to some random shot and die before doing anything relevant. Even if he does make it to his chosen target, he’s not chucking enough dice to ensure a kill.

 Nevelon wrote:

I really liked the 4th edition set up where wargear had two prices, one for 1W models, and another for multiwound ones. Made a lot more sense. You put a giant tank-shreding chainsword on a chapter master on a bike, he’s going to carve a path of destruction across the table. Put it on bob the assault marine, he’s going to cop it to some random shot and die before doing anything relevant. Even if he does make it to his chosen target, he’s not chucking enough dice to ensure a kill.

Agreed.

It also made more sense because HQs are far more expensive than sergeants. So, it seems a bit silly that a Captain is paying 25% of hi base cost for a Power Fist, whilst a sergeant is stuck doubling his cost for one.

It's the same problem with cheap vs expensive HQs. The whole point of HQs like Archons, Canonesses, Lord Commissars and such is that they're supposed to be cheap and fragile. However, this is completely undermined by them paying the same prices as much tougher and more expensive HQs for their gear. What you end up with is some HQs that are much weaker and more fragile than tooled-up SM HQs, but don't get a significant discount to compensate for this.

Want to talk about IG having 25pts str 6 powerfists?

Makumba wrote:
Want to talk about IG having 25pts str 6 powerfists?

I thought I was.

 Nevelon, comparing Eviscerators with meltabombs, wrote:
Although, being pure armorbane, it cuts right through ceremite. So it has that going for it.

Armoured ceramite only works against weapons with the "Melta" special rule. Meltabombs don't have the "Melta" special rule. They have "Armourbane" instead.
Of course, many people probably house-rule Armoured Ceramite as working against meltabombs.