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As above, just how well would the IoM be doing in M41 if the Horus Heresy never happened? Do we think races like the Tyranids/Orks/Tau/Necrons would stand much of a chance against a (more or less) unified Imperial force?

I think mainly the Tyranids would be a problem, or the Necrons if they have time enough to awaken. Tau would just get laughed at, then shot.
Orks seems to have been a problem the IoM could deal with prior to the Heresy, not easily, but they could handle them.
Keep in mind that the Emperor would still be walking about if the Heresy never happened. Scattered astartes chapters wouldn't be fending of the enemy either, but full legions.

Boreal wrote:
I think mainly the Tyranids would be a problem, or the Necrons if they have time enough to awaken. Tau would just get laughed at, then shot.
Orks seems to have been a problem the IoM could deal with prior to the Heresy, not easily, but they could handle them.
Keep in mind that the Emperor would still be walking about if the Heresy never happened. Scattered astartes chapters wouldn't be fending of the enemy either, but full legions.

I doubt there would be much at all that could threaten the Imperium after 10,000 years without the Heresy. Not only would you still have most of the primarchs leading their legions, but the technology base would be leaps and bounds ahead of what it is now.

The only issues I could foresee is the Emprah going "ok we've killed everything. Now what do I do with my Space Marines?" I'm not sure if the warp storms would still pose an issue, but they probably would cause slight issues. Also, the whole God-Emperor thing might cause some discord within the imperium, and may spark another Heresy-type event lead by Lorgar or something. Actually, that would be a pretty cool storyline.

Really, there would be almost nothing that would give the Imperium pause. The entire reason things are so difficult right now is the fact that the imperium had a massive war which left half of the IOM fighting the other. And after that massive, costly war, the IOM can still fight pretty much every where, all the time, against all manner of threats and essentially be fighting to a standstill without any outside assistance to speak of.

If the civil war had never happened, the resources available would bury all opposition.

Somebody feths up hardcore later down the line. Status quo restored.

Imagine if the Eldar pantheon included a God of either leisure or hedonism. Or even one of challenges.

Or the Old Ones didn't roll perils during the War in Heaven.

Much, much different universe.

If Horus, Lorgar and all the others are still fighting for the Imperium, then... well damn. Once the mortal plane of the galaxy is conquered, I believe Orks are the first species to be exterminated. Despite their vast numbers, they are the least subtle and the worst at hiding of the current major players that also existed at the time. They would not be "extinct" in the sense that Orks are believed to exist outside of the WH40k galaxy and would occasionally venture inside, but each of these Kroosades would be met with multiple Legions who would destroy them.

Next, is the Eldar. After all, the Eldar almost certainly builds the Golden Throne to its full and intended function, and so he eventually gains access to the Webway. Commorragh is wiped clean. We see fluff of a few chapters launching strikes into Commorragh once, and first off it's awesome fluff, but secondly they survive to escape. Unleash the Ultramarines, in Legion form, and gak goes down hard. Guilleman alone could successfully orchestrate the invasion and control of Commoragh, add in the World Eaters and it's over quickly. Eventually, the Craftworld Eldar must either abandon the Webway or fight the Legions of Mankind. Those that fight lose, as no one survives the Death Guard invading a Craftworld, and eventually the Eldar race is reduced to rangers, Exodites and raiders living off of realspace and constantly on the move, too scattered and shattered to pose a threat to a modestly populated world. They are all but extinct, even moreso than in current 40k.

The Tau never come to exist in any form that resembles today. Local flora and fauna on the world that will never be known as T'au is eliminated as part of Terramorming by the explorator fleet that uses the Webway to get there.

Necrons... Necrons are tricky. When they arise, it will be with force and they will threaten systems. But, the webway allows quick notice for the Imperium and vast forces redeploy to take down the Incursions. A Necron Tomb world is a tough foe once fully roused but again, a full Legion will be able to overcome them.

Chaos is tricky. Obviously CSM are basically nonexistant but theoretically possible. Again, unlikely. The implementation of the Webway means that the Warp is rarely used for transportation and the Imperium is not reliant on Psykers. Daemonic incursions are very rare, as are cults and uprisings in general.

Finally, Tyranids. Tyranids are the most threatening of the forces of Disorder, and are able to consume whole sectors as before. But, each Hive Fleet is destroyed much earlier than before as Legions are redeployed to confront the emerging threats. Although each Hive Fleet has been defeated almost entirely, they continue to grow in size...

Well if the Heresy didn't happen then a whole bunch of resources over 10 000 yrs would've been used to deal with Xenos rather then being tied up with traitors. This perhaps may even mean they could've had the resources to go all out on Orks and perhaps be the only race to ever lay them low. The Emporer's webway would've been completed and Humanity would've experienced a whole new level of travel and communication. Humanity wouldn't have fallen into religious stagnation and superstitious dogmatism and would be 10 000 yrs more tech advanced then what they are now (D strenghth weaons for everyone, which is happening anyways). Unfortunately I think the Orks are currently the Galaxy's answer to the Tyranid situation so if the Imperium had wiped out the Orks I'm not sure they'd have the resources and manpower to handle the Tyranids after. Unless the Emporer comes up with a way to destroy the Daemon Lords in the Warp then I doubt they'd sit idle for 10k yrs and some other big heresy would've occured.

Remember the IoM has gone through several other conflicts post HH that have been fairly cataclysmic too.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Apostasy

Now throw 18 scuabbling Primarchs into that mix (say half side with the apostasy) and things might have been as bad as the HH.
10000 years is a long time for everyone to be pulling in the same direction and still have the IoM stay strong.....

 Ratius wrote:
Remember the IoM has gone through several other conflicts post HH that have been fairly cataclysmic too.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Apostasy

Now throw 18 scuabbling Primarchs into that mix (say half side with the apostasy) and things might have been as bad as the HH.
10000 years is a long time for everyone to be pulling in the same direction and still have the IoM stay strong.....

if the immortal emperor was still alive there would be no eclisiarchy therefore no age of apostasy... also there would have been no nova tera interragnum and there wouldn't have been vandire... most of the big problems have come form the fact that the emperor want there to lead.

Well i think the maries might start a heresy just cos their bored at having nothing left to kill.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Remember the IoM has gone through several other conflicts post HH that have been fairly cataclysmic too.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Apostasy

Now throw 18 scuabbling Primarchs into that mix (say half side with the apostasy) and things might have been as bad as the HH.
10000 years is a long time for everyone to be pulling in the same direction and still have the IoM stay strong.....

if the immortal emperor was still alive there would be no eclisiarchy therefore no age of apostasy... also there would have been no nova tera interragnum and there wouldn't have been vandire... most of the big problems have come form the fact that the emperor want there to lead.

Also the fact that the Emperor would have no qualms about completely obliterating anyone other than Horus were they to betray him.

Fair points, actually forgot about BigE still being alive

The Ecclesiarchy would probably still exist (there were billions of humans on Terra who were worshipping the Emperor as a god in his lifetime), but there would be no Age of Apostasy or anything of the sort. It would be slightly different than it is now, basically establishing a codified manner in which the Emperor may be venerated, and ensuring the purity of its teachings, but otherwise not largely changed.

Basically, 40k would not be 40k without the Heresy or the events that followed it. It would be "Warhammer 40,000: Humanity! Feth Yeah! Kickin' Ass! Takin' Names!"

The House of Cards model of societal collapse suggests that there is an inherent "tax" that must be paid with any increase in societal complexity. This tax can be maintained by increases in productivity, but as soon as there is a reduction in productivity this "tax" becomes unsustainable and societal collapse results.

There is no escape from this equation.

Chaos always wins in the end.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Ecclesiarchy would probably still exist (there were billions of humans on Terra who were worshipping the Emperor as a god in his lifetime), but there would be no Age of Apostasy or anything of the sort. It would be slightly different than it is now, basically establishing a codified manner in which the Emperor may be venerated, and ensuring the purity of its teachings, but otherwise not largely changed.

Basically, 40k would not be 40k without the Heresy or the events that followed it. It would be "Warhammer 40,000: Humanity! Feth Yeah! Kickin' Ass! Takin' Names!"

The Ecclesiarchy would still be a cult... the whole heresy was the thing that skyrocketed the whole "Empire is a God" thing.
Establishing a codified manner of what?
The Emperor still being around means state sponsored atheism and persecution of Emperor worshipers.

 Khonsu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Ecclesiarchy would probably still exist (there were billions of humans on Terra who were worshipping the Emperor as a god in his lifetime), but there would be no Age of Apostasy or anything of the sort. It would be slightly different than it is now, basically establishing a codified manner in which the Emperor may be venerated, and ensuring the purity of its teachings, but otherwise not largely changed.

Basically, 40k would not be 40k without the Heresy or the events that followed it. It would be "Warhammer 40,000: Humanity! Feth Yeah! Kickin' Ass! Takin' Names!"

The Ecclesiarchy would still be a cult... the whole heresy was the thing that skyrocketed the whole "Empire is a God" thing.
Establishing a codified manner of what?
The Emperor still being around means state sponsored atheism and persecution of Emperor worshipers.

The Emperor wasn't persecuting the humans who surrounded him on Terra and were actively worshipping him. The idea of state-sponsored atheism is mostly fan-made. The "Imperial Truth" is a lie, a bald-faced, flat-out lie, and the Emperor knew that. It's a feint, a way to divest the Ruinous Powers of the Warp-energy being fed to them by Humanity... and, likely, direct it towards himself.

The Word Bearers were not censured because they were worshipping the Emperor, they were censured because they were taking too much time in doing so, when he intended for them to be a conquering army. Their creation of temples and such was symptomatic, not a root cause. Of interesting note, those worlds conquered by the Word Bearers remain some of the most steadfastly-loyal worlds in the Imperium. Nothing like a common, shared faith to bind a population together, and be used to direct them according to plan. Both the Emperor and the Ecclesiarchy know this.

It's a big puzzle. One could say that humanity would have free reign to rule the galaxy, but that's counting without eldars meddling. If the Emperor envisonned destroying them completly, they would have used their divination skills, superior to those of the Emperor and his thralls, to prevent him from succeding in a way or another. You could always imagine other conflict the size of the Horus Heresy, but with very human person at its head instead of extraplanar deities. Vandire dragged the Imperium to its knees and he wasn't Chaos crazy, he was just regular person crazy. The Emperor being an autocratic despot, there would be a terrible number of envious sicophant to rebel against him including many of his Primarchs (and I don't trust Malchador). His cult could have been a issue at some point and that's not counting everything else that could go wrong with his alliance with Mars Theocracy.

Orks, it's always Orks. No matter where we go we always find the Kine. After Ullanor we all thought that was it for them, a last few groups dotted here and there throughout the Imperium and nothing that we couldn't mop up later, but no. As we expand the Emperors reach there is always the stain of green. I do not believe we will ever be rid of them. I must admit, I do admire them. Even in the face of destruction they continue to fight and cause us all grief.

Ever since the Lord Guilliman requested his brother Magnus for assistance in lighting the way for further exploration into the darker parts of the galactic east, beyond Ultramar where the light of the Astronomicon does not reach, strange visions have been seen by the Astropaths and members of the Librarius. A great mass of screams and shredding claws, a darkness impenetrable and nothingness beyond it.

Using the Tower of Magnus as our new beacon we will sail out and discover what they mean and if they be a new foe, I will welcome them with Bolt round and Steel. For I have had enough of Orks.

Emperor's plan works. The warp calms further and humans are safely guided in their evolution to become a psychic race.

Instead Emp practically dies, chaos reigns. Warp turns into an even bigger sithstorm, psykers are born at a rate that the administration are not able to properly process. Daemonic incursions become more and more frequent.

Interesting question, but it doesnt account for the Primarchs' personal problems beyond their participation in the Heresy. For example, are we talking if Magnus also stopped praciticing sorcery and obeyed his father without question? Because if so, even if things didn't go well in the Warp Conduit (the portion of the webway the Emperor discovered during that time), I believe one book implies that besides the Emperor only Magnus could have sustained the Golden Throne and it's effects without dying. With that settled the Webway would have been something the Imperium could have utilized for their own ends, meaning more efficient travel without relying so much on the Warp.

Other Primarchs had issues too, like temperamental Angron or the religiously inclined Lorgar, if they didn't partake in the Heresy they would have been the cynical leaders of the bureaucracy they were meant to handle when the Great Crusade winds down.

Its possible that the Emperor would find a way to "use" the remaining CW Eldar, as the CW Eldar find a way to "use" the IoM.

Possible timeline?
-Y32k - IoM is mostly stable and mostly the only real power left, aside from Chaos. Surrounds the Eye of Terror, and anyone who ventures closer than the embargo line is killed. They Eye begins to recede.
-Y34k - Eldred or his successors, both out of desperate need for more soul stones and finally learning humility and seeing Humanity as the best hope against She who Thirsts, come to terms with the Emperor. They join the blockade of they Eye (allowing them to slip in and out, gathering soulstones), as a part of the Imperium. IoM policies won't allow them to expand, but their birth rate is too slow for this to matter.

-Y37k - as most now-living CW Eldar were not alive before the Fall, and many of them know firsthand how much better life has been after the Accord, especially compared to the travails during the Great Crusade, Eldar are more and more helpful to the IoM. The Librarius is finally restarted with Eldar safeguards (ghosthelms, runes, etc). Eldar assist in maintaining the Human Webway, freeing Magnus to rejoin his Legion. And Eldar tech is generally shared with Mankind.

Bharring wrote:
Its possible that the Emperor would find a way to "use" the remaining CW Eldar, as the CW Eldar find a way to "use" the IoM.

Possible timeline?
-Y32k - IoM is mostly stable and mostly the only real power left, aside from Chaos. Surrounds the Eye of Terror, and anyone who ventures closer than the embargo line is killed. They Eye begins to recede.
-Y34k - Eldred or his successors, both out of desperate need for more soul stones and finally learning humility and seeing Humanity as the best hope against She who Thirsts, come to terms with the Emperor. They join the blockade of they Eye (allowing them to slip in and out, gathering soulstones), as a part of the Imperium. IoM policies won't allow them to expand, but their birth rate is too slow for this to matter.

-Y37k - as most now-living CW Eldar were not alive before the Fall, and many of them know firsthand how much better life has been after the Accord, especially compared to the travails during the Great Crusade, Eldar are more and more helpful to the IoM. The Librarius is finally restarted with Eldar safeguards (ghosthelms, runes, etc). Eldar assist in maintaining the Human Webway, freeing Magnus to rejoin his Legion. And Eldar tech is generally shared with Mankind.

This is far too noblebright... Likely the eldar would simple recede and become insular and xenophobic. limited cultural interactions m,ight bring about some mutual gain, but overall it would be a tacit peace, similar to Klingon- federation relations in TNG.

Tyranids might do.

The Lectitio Divinitatus would remain as an underground cult, and it - and chaos - would be the main threats to the stability of the Imperium. The Primarchs would be superb administrators (some of them, anyway), and with the webway connecting up the worlds of the Imperium, the major threat of distance disappears.

I would imagine you would still get rebellions against the Imperium, but they should not be an issue - not on a macro scale, anyway. The other big thing to note is that if the heresy didn't happen to script, you also have Malcador beavering away behind the scenes.

flirice wrote:
Interesting question, but it doesnt account for the Primarchs' personal problems beyond their participation in the Heresy. For example, are we talking if Magnus also stopped praciticing sorcery and obeyed his father without question? Because if so, even if things didn't go well in the Warp Conduit (the portion of the webway the Emperor discovered during that time), I believe one book implies that besides the Emperor only Magnus could have sustained the Golden Throne and it's effects without dying. With that settled the Webway would have been something the Imperium could have utilized for their own ends, meaning more efficient travel without relying so much on the Warp.

Other Primarchs had issues too, like temperamental Angron or the religiously inclined Lorgar, if they didn't partake in the Heresy they would have been the cynical leaders of the bureaucracy they were meant to handle when the Great Crusade winds down.

I never bought into the idea that the Emperor intended for someone to sit on the Golden Throne 24/7 to power the webway. The only reason he is confined to it now is because Magnus broke it, not because that was the plan.

I think if the HH did not happen, then mankind would be extinct in the 41st millennium.

Chaos, having failed to sway the Astartes, work from the bottom up and begin to corrupt humans. The farthest colonies fall first and are dealt with in secret, but as the taint spreads more and more legions are brought face to face with chaos.

Eventually it is decided that humans are a weakness which chaos can exploit and to eliminate chaos, humans must be destroyed. The Astartes begin a campaign of extermination against Homo Sapians to cull the weak from the Empire and remove the taint of chaos forever.

By the time of today's timeline, the 40k universe is controlled by the Astartes. Evolutions next step and 'mankinds' eventual doom.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I think if the HH did not happen, then mankind would be extinct in the 41st millennium.

Chaos, having failed to sway the Astartes, work from the bottom up and begin to corrupt humans. The farthest colonies fall first and are dealt with in secret, but as the taint spreads more and more legions are brought face to face with chaos.

Eventually it is decided that humans are a weakness which chaos can exploit and to eliminate chaos, humans must be destroyed. The Astartes begin a campaign of extermination against Homo Sapians to cull the weak from the Empire and remove the taint of chaos forever.

By the time of today's timeline, the 40k universe is controlled by the Astartes. Evolutions next step and 'mankinds' eventual doom.

this doesn't make sense, as: 1. astartes are not hyper-logical robots (i see the Asimov overtones there) and 2. astartes are not born astartes, they are born human and made astartes, so killing all of humanity would damn themselves to extinction as well. I could see an attempt to purge the chaos but that would be problematic on a logistical scale.

 GKTiberius wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
I think if the HH did not happen, then mankind would be extinct in the 41st millennium.

Chaos, having failed to sway the Astartes, work from the bottom up and begin to corrupt humans. The farthest colonies fall first and are dealt with in secret, but as the taint spreads more and more legions are brought face to face with chaos.

Eventually it is decided that humans are a weakness which chaos can exploit and to eliminate chaos, humans must be destroyed. The Astartes begin a campaign of extermination against Homo Sapians to cull the weak from the Empire and remove the taint of chaos forever.

By the time of today's timeline, the 40k universe is controlled by the Astartes. Evolutions next step and 'mankinds' eventual doom.

this doesn't make sense, as: 1. astartes are not hyper-logical robots (i see the Asimov overtones there) and 2. astartes are not born astartes, they are born human and made astartes, so killing all of humanity would damn themselves to extinction as well. I could see an attempt to purge the chaos but that would be problematic on a logistical scale.

1. Astartes do what their Primarchs tell them. Once the external enemies are defeated all that remains are the internal enemies.

2. Babies can be made in the lab to be turned into Astartes or mindless servitors. No need for an unpredictable population.

Efficient, safe, productive.

I think maybe if Horus didn't lead the Heresy I kinda bet later on it woulda been Magnus who would start the big Heresy. Might be a touch of irony but I think it the most likely nonetheless. Magnus himself was falling under Tzeentch seperately and far more subtley then from what was happening to Horus. However when the Horus Heresy erupted events led to Magnus developing great disdain for Horus and is probably the one traitor legion the least allied to the other legions and a Primarch that now sits brooding and sulking on some sorcery planet somewhere. Had Horus not fallen and thus none of the events would take place that led to Magnus feeling betrayed I'd say that eventually Tzeentch would've poisoned Magnus's mind until Magnus was a fully willing participant of a Chaos Lord's machinations. Considering his already impressive psychic powers, I'd say a Magnus Heresy mighta been something to see.