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Yeah but I don't think Magnus was all that charismatic compared to Horus. That's part of the reason the other Primarchs joined him.

That's a very good point. He wouldn't be able to turn other legions and Imperial Guard over into his cause the way Horus did. But I wonder if by this time they would still have needed to cast the Rubicron but with a less jaded and sulky Magnus in complete approval of it, and if so how many more they might be able to turn into ghostly automoton armour legions. Pure speculation of course that require a vastly different mindset then what Magnus has portrayed since the HH but then again without the HH much of what has impacted Magnus's current mindset and personality wouldn't have happened. The HH created him into a tragic hero and now he mopes most of the time.

IIRC the night lords were rogue before the HH started proper.

 Psienesis wrote:

The Emperor wasn't persecuting the humans who surrounded him on Terra and were actively worshipping him. The idea of state-sponsored atheism is mostly fan-made.

It doesn't matter. If the Emperor was an Atheist and did take the Imperial Truth superstition seriously, then one of four possible ends are predictable ;

--- the Ecclesiarchy, or something basically just like it, wins anyway, the Emperor not withstanding , because the Imperium is composed of trillions of ditch diggers , toilet scrubbers, and cannon fodder to whom Imperial Truth gives no reason to dig ditches , scrub toilets , and get your head blown off, except to keep breathing ( temporarily ) . A gun pointed at your head is quite an incentive .....except if you are obliged to live in such a Hell indefinitely / permanently , then one rapist is as good as another .
Self-destruction as good as another day in hell.
Or, a "myth" that offers you something is better than a "truth" that offers you nothing.

--- Chaos wins . Because Nurgle, Slaneesh , Korne, are preferable to digging ditches , scrubbing toilets indefinitely / permanently , or getting your head blown off, so that a Kim Kardashian, who cares so much about you that she never sent you a birthday card, can waterski behind another yacht when she already has 5 or 6 yachts anyway .

--- The Emperor and his master race are obliged to exterminate humanity , in which case the Emperor and his Primarchs will be scrubbing their own toilets and digging their own ditches.
I guess that would mean that is what they wanted all along. But then you would wonder why they bothered with the long servitor detour.


--- The Emperor and his master race are obliged to exterminate humanity , and become Necrons by another name. that is a few , absolutely miserable, people surrounded by machines that can only dig their ditches and scrub their toilets, but who cannot help them with their misery problem.

My favorite option of these is the Ecclesiarchy wins. A happy ending for ditch diggers, toilet scrubbers, and cannon fodder, collectively AND individually, sounds pretty good. Also the only outcome that renders the concept of justice remotely coherent .

Which is why I don't believe the "Imperial Truth" would have lasted as a lot of fans seem to think it would have.

There is, after all, a Chaos God of Atheism. Necoho, the Unbeliever. One of my favorite, and most-paradoxical, of the Ruinous Powers. Unlike the rest, he demands no worship, grants those who proclaim to worship him no Gifts, and manifests in no shrines or temples dedicated to him.

... and yet, he exists.

The Imperial Truth's main goal is to distract the common man's mind from the possibility of gods existing, not deny that a special set of them exist. What this does, then, at the time of its pronouncement, is allow those who are already proclaiming his divinity to offer their way as the "one true path", as there's simply no real competition. What you end up with, then, is something very similar to the various Abrahamic and Judaeo-Christian faiths in the real world... a bunch of different people all worshipping basically the same God, with different flavors to their individual codas. This, of course, is exactly how the Ecclesiarchy works in "canon" 40k. In this non-Heresy version, of course, the option to venerate a Ruinous Power doesn't exist, because all knowledge of them is completely, totally suppressed. There's no opportunity for a regular human being to learn of them... and thus no reason for the ditch-diggers and toilet-scrubbers to question the Emperor's will.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I think maybe if Horus didn't lead the Heresy I kinda bet later on it woulda been Magnus who would start the big Heresy. Might be a touch of irony but I think it the most likely nonetheless. Magnus himself was falling under Tzeentch seperately and far more subtley then from what was happening to Horus. However when the Horus Heresy erupted events led to Magnus developing great disdain for Horus and is probably the one traitor legion the least allied to the other legions and a Primarch that now sits brooding and sulking on some sorcery planet somewhere. Had Horus not fallen and thus none of the events would take place that led to Magnus feeling betrayed I'd say that eventually Tzeentch would've poisoned Magnus's mind until Magnus was a fully willing participant of a Chaos Lord's machinations. Considering his already impressive psychic powers, I'd say a Magnus Heresy mighta been something to see.

As most people tend to forget, Horus wasn't the first Primarch to sign up with the Ruinous Powers- just the most recent.

There's a long list of Primarchs liable to turn against the Imperium and several capable of leading it- Magnus, Curze, Guilliman, Dorn, Angron, and Lion'el at the very least could have turned traitor as the first. It could have been led by Sanguinius, Lion'el, Guilliman, maybe even Vulkan.

At least one, Curze, has already gone rogue. Curze could have been the flashpoint if Lorgar failed to start a Heresy. The Ruinous Powers weren't going to sit by and watch if their first plan failed.

Curze was crazy even before the Heresy though.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I think maybe if Horus didn't lead the Heresy I kinda bet later on it woulda been Magnus who would start the big Heresy. Might be a touch of irony but I think it the most likely nonetheless. Magnus himself was falling under Tzeentch seperately and far more subtley then from what was happening to Horus. However when the Horus Heresy erupted events led to Magnus developing great disdain for Horus and is probably the one traitor legion the least allied to the other legions and a Primarch that now sits brooding and sulking on some sorcery planet somewhere. Had Horus not fallen and thus none of the events would take place that led to Magnus feeling betrayed I'd say that eventually Tzeentch would've poisoned Magnus's mind until Magnus was a fully willing participant of a Chaos Lord's machinations. Considering his already impressive psychic powers, I'd say a Magnus Heresy mighta been something to see.

As most people tend to forget, Horus wasn't the first Primarch to sign up with the Ruinous Powers- just the most recent.

There's a long list of Primarchs liable to turn against the Imperium and several capable of leading it- Magnus, Curze, Guilliman, Dorn, Angron, and Lion'el at the very least could have turned traitor as the first. It could have been led by Sanguinius, Lion'el, Guilliman, maybe even Vulkan.

At least one, Curze, has already gone rogue. Curze could have been the flashpoint if Lorgar failed to start a Heresy. The Ruinous Powers weren't going to sit by and watch if their first plan failed.

No they wouldn't sit by, but as I said earlier Horus was the only one who could have incapacitated the Emperor the way he did. Not because of any particular level of power that Horus possessed, but because he was probably the only one that the Emperor loved as a true son. I don't see the Emperor holding back against any of the other primarchs the way he did with Horus. He would have obliterated their soul as his opening attack and that would've been the end of it.

There has never been any indication that any other primarch fell to chaos has there? Its primarily supposition.

Probably one or two of the primarchs would have fallen to chaos, but the war would have been short-lived, and the emperor would simply crush them and continue with his schemes.

The emperor might try to use the pylons to seal off the eye of terror and the Imperium would have access to the web at as it would never have been broken.

The space marine legions would serve as servants and protectors of the imperial government set up by the Emperor.

Both the neurons and the tyranids would be a big enough threat that the emperor would have to engage them directly.

It is year 401984.
Last year was year 401984.
The year before was year 401984.

I look forward to next year, 401985!

Bharring wrote:
It is year 401984.
Last year was year 401984.
The year before was year 401984.

I look forward to next year, 401985!

I have little hope that they will push the storyline in a good direction more than likely we get the following:

The galaxy explodes and there's nothing left but a weird hybrid of all the factions you once knew.

Tyranorks: The 'ardest bugs der is!

Flayer Angels: Because can't space vampires and space mummies get along?

The Ultra-Tau: Because blue is such a spiffingly unifying color! You may thank your spiritual liege for this heresy.

And even MOAR vile heresy!

 Orblivion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I think maybe if Horus didn't lead the Heresy I kinda bet later on it woulda been Magnus who would start the big Heresy. Might be a touch of irony but I think it the most likely nonetheless. Magnus himself was falling under Tzeentch seperately and far more subtley then from what was happening to Horus. However when the Horus Heresy erupted events led to Magnus developing great disdain for Horus and is probably the one traitor legion the least allied to the other legions and a Primarch that now sits brooding and sulking on some sorcery planet somewhere. Had Horus not fallen and thus none of the events would take place that led to Magnus feeling betrayed I'd say that eventually Tzeentch would've poisoned Magnus's mind until Magnus was a fully willing participant of a Chaos Lord's machinations. Considering his already impressive psychic powers, I'd say a Magnus Heresy mighta been something to see.

As most people tend to forget, Horus wasn't the first Primarch to sign up with the Ruinous Powers- just the most recent.

There's a long list of Primarchs liable to turn against the Imperium and several capable of leading it- Magnus, Curze, Guilliman, Dorn, Angron, and Lion'el at the very least could have turned traitor as the first. It could have been led by Sanguinius, Lion'el, Guilliman, maybe even Vulkan.

At least one, Curze, has already gone rogue. Curze could have been the flashpoint if Lorgar failed to start a Heresy. The Ruinous Powers weren't going to sit by and watch if their first plan failed.

No they wouldn't sit by, but as I said earlier Horus was the only one who could have incapacitated the Emperor the way he did. Not because of any particular level of power that Horus possessed, but because he was probably the only one that the Emperor loved as a true son. I don't see the Emperor holding back against any of the other primarchs the way he did with Horus. He would have obliterated their soul as his opening attack and that would've been the end of it.

I don't know. Unless you're a crazy S.O.B, filicide isn't a casual thing. I'm pretty sure the Emperor would have a hard time with killing any of the Primarchs.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I think maybe if Horus didn't lead the Heresy I kinda bet later on it woulda been Magnus who would start the big Heresy. Might be a touch of irony but I think it the most likely nonetheless. Magnus himself was falling under Tzeentch seperately and far more subtley then from what was happening to Horus. However when the Horus Heresy erupted events led to Magnus developing great disdain for Horus and is probably the one traitor legion the least allied to the other legions and a Primarch that now sits brooding and sulking on some sorcery planet somewhere. Had Horus not fallen and thus none of the events would take place that led to Magnus feeling betrayed I'd say that eventually Tzeentch would've poisoned Magnus's mind until Magnus was a fully willing participant of a Chaos Lord's machinations. Considering his already impressive psychic powers, I'd say a Magnus Heresy mighta been something to see.

As most people tend to forget, Horus wasn't the first Primarch to sign up with the Ruinous Powers- just the most recent.

There's a long list of Primarchs liable to turn against the Imperium and several capable of leading it- Magnus, Curze, Guilliman, Dorn, Angron, and Lion'el at the very least could have turned traitor as the first. It could have been led by Sanguinius, Lion'el, Guilliman, maybe even Vulkan.

At least one, Curze, has already gone rogue. Curze could have been the flashpoint if Lorgar failed to start a Heresy. The Ruinous Powers weren't going to sit by and watch if their first plan failed.

No they wouldn't sit by, but as I said earlier Horus was the only one who could have incapacitated the Emperor the way he did. Not because of any particular level of power that Horus possessed, but because he was probably the only one that the Emperor loved as a true son. I don't see the Emperor holding back against any of the other primarchs the way he did with Horus. He would have obliterated their soul as his opening attack and that would've been the end of it.

I don't know. Unless you're a crazy S.O.B, filicide isn't a casual thing. I'm pretty sure the Emperor would have a hard time with killing any of the Primarchs.

Hard enough that he would hold back long enough to be made a cripple? Horus was the only one that he actually raised at all.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Orks, it's always Orks. No matter where we go we always find the Kine. After Ullanor we all thought that was it for them, a last few groups dotted here and there throughout the Imperium and nothing that we couldn't mop up later, but no. As we expand the Emperors reach there is always the stain of green. I do not believe we will ever be rid of them. I must admit, I do admire them. Even in the face of destruction they continue to fight and cause us all grief.

Ever since the Lord Guilliman requested his brother Magnus for assistance in lighting the way for further exploration into the darker parts of the galactic east, beyond Ultramar where the light of the Astronomicon does not reach, strange visions have been seen by the Astropaths and members of the Librarius. A great mass of screams and shredding claws, a darkness impenetrable and nothingness beyond it.

Using the Tower of Magnus as our new beacon we will sail out and discover what they mean and if they be a new foe, I will welcome them with Bolt round and Steel. For I have had enough of Orks.

Where is this from? I feel like I've read it before.

number9dream wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Orks, it's always Orks. No matter where we go we always find the Kine. After Ullanor we all thought that was it for them, a last few groups dotted here and there throughout the Imperium and nothing that we couldn't mop up later, but no. As we expand the Emperors reach there is always the stain of green. I do not believe we will ever be rid of them. I must admit, I do admire them. Even in the face of destruction they continue to fight and cause us all grief.

Ever since the Lord Guilliman requested his brother Magnus for assistance in lighting the way for further exploration into the darker parts of the galactic east, beyond Ultramar where the light of the Astronomicon does not reach, strange visions have been seen by the Astropaths and members of the Librarius. A great mass of screams and shredding claws, a darkness impenetrable and nothingness beyond it.

Using the Tower of Magnus as our new beacon we will sail out and discover what they mean and if they be a new foe, I will welcome them with Bolt round and Steel. For I have had enough of Orks.

Where is this from? I feel like I've read it before.

I made it up. The Salamanders refer to the Orks as kine in the Salamanders series by Nick Kyme, I just went with that.

 Orblivion wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I think maybe if Horus didn't lead the Heresy I kinda bet later on it woulda been Magnus who would start the big Heresy. Might be a touch of irony but I think it the most likely nonetheless. Magnus himself was falling under Tzeentch seperately and far more subtley then from what was happening to Horus. However when the Horus Heresy erupted events led to Magnus developing great disdain for Horus and is probably the one traitor legion the least allied to the other legions and a Primarch that now sits brooding and sulking on some sorcery planet somewhere. Had Horus not fallen and thus none of the events would take place that led to Magnus feeling betrayed I'd say that eventually Tzeentch would've poisoned Magnus's mind until Magnus was a fully willing participant of a Chaos Lord's machinations. Considering his already impressive psychic powers, I'd say a Magnus Heresy mighta been something to see.

As most people tend to forget, Horus wasn't the first Primarch to sign up with the Ruinous Powers- just the most recent.

There's a long list of Primarchs liable to turn against the Imperium and several capable of leading it- Magnus, Curze, Guilliman, Dorn, Angron, and Lion'el at the very least could have turned traitor as the first. It could have been led by Sanguinius, Lion'el, Guilliman, maybe even Vulkan.

At least one, Curze, has already gone rogue. Curze could have been the flashpoint if Lorgar failed to start a Heresy. The Ruinous Powers weren't going to sit by and watch if their first plan failed.

No they wouldn't sit by, but as I said earlier Horus was the only one who could have incapacitated the Emperor the way he did. Not because of any particular level of power that Horus possessed, but because he was probably the only one that the Emperor loved as a true son. I don't see the Emperor holding back against any of the other primarchs the way he did with Horus. He would have obliterated their soul as his opening attack and that would've been the end of it.

I don't know. Unless you're a crazy S.O.B, filicide isn't a casual thing. I'm pretty sure the Emperor would have a hard time with killing any of the Primarchs.

Hard enough that he would hold back long enough to be made a cripple? Horus was the only one that he actually raised at all.

Maybe, maybe not. Might be that some things might have gone differently if Horus'd died, and maybe the new leader would have gotten more Legions on board.

Oh this is a fun topic. Right, so we start from the position that the Emperor is the single most powerful mortal being by a vast margin. He can hear the thoughts of whole planets and create vast cataclysms with his mind. I agree that Horus is the only one who could put a dent in him, and only because the Emperor hesitates. In the older fluff (back when it made sense), the Emperor still believed Horus could be saved, even when the traitor legions were at the Terra, even when he killed Sanguinius. It wasn't until Horus slew the lone Guardsman, Ollanius Pius, that the Emperor finally took Horus seriously. The Emperor doesn't necessarily like most of the other Primarchs; remember, he made them to be tools of his conquest and spent very little time with most of them.

So, given all that, Lorgar, Magnus, and Curze will almost certainly each individually screw up and get excommunicated/executed like the lost legions. It happened to Magnus independent of the Heresy, first with the ban on sorcerery, then he got in real trouble when the Emperor sent Russ to subdue his Legion (forcefully) and bring him in for punishment. The only thing Horus did was change 'arrest' to 'kill.' In fact, I think over time most of the Primarchs will outlive their usefulness and do something dumb enough to lose their position.

It's pretty clear the Emperor's plan is to starve the Ruinous Powers of worship. He needed their help to create the Primarchs in the first place, and what is the only thing the Emperor could offer them as payment? More human worship. We know they scattered the Primarchs because he went back on that deal, so the crusade is really just a race against the clock to divest the Chaos Gods of power. Horus Heresy was their winning move, so failing that, the Emperor wins and the Chaos Gods are pushed out of the mortal plane.

The next logical step then is to break humanity of their dependency on the Warp, where the Chaos Gods will always have absolute control. As has been pointed out, the Eldar are easy prey for the Legions. After that I do think the Space Marines end up in their current role of peace keepers. The Legions will get spread across the galaxy (though probably not broken into Chapters).

The last question is whether the Emperor really draws his power from worship. This is heavily implied that the Emperor intends to replace the gods, but if that's the case why would he even bother with the state-sponsored atheism? Yes, any religion risks devolving into Chaos, but in the mean time he becomes vastly more powerful. When you're behind, you have to take risks to win. There's a lot of contradiction and it doesn't have an impact on the end result anyway.

Finally, the fact that Chapters can combat the Tyranids and Necrons effectively means the Legions would crush them. I think the dark horse in this race is the Eldar. Once they go extinct, their god of death is born and wipes out Chaos.Then it starts going after the rest of the pantheon. Ork gods, the Necron C'tan, and finally the Emperor himself. Strong as he is, he can't beat the Chaos Gods so this is no contest. By the year 50,000 we're right back to this spot: mankind on the brink with no one to lead them.