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So - full disclosure, I have NOT played with these units.

I haven't played in years, but these are two units that I like the look/idea of, but I can wrap my head around the usefulness of them, stats-wise.

I'd love to convert some Tauroxs as Safari vehicles for my Praetorian-ish guard army idea and use Anzacs as scouts on rough riders - are either of these units effective? Because stats wise they look hard to use. I'm not a power gamer, I'm usually all for fluff anyways, so if they're halfway effective I'd still use them, and maybe even if they weren't half way effective haha.

Taurox isn't great, but then again, neither is the chimera. Taurox is at least cheaper, but comes with worse armour and guns. I personally prefer the Chimera, but I also think the Taurox looks like gak, so there's that.

Rough riders are arguably one of the worst units in the book, if not the flat out worst. Too expensive, too fragile, not good in assault, even weaker in shooting, and just lack any other real flair to help. They'd need to come down in price, be made available in larger squads (or even platoons) and have a better assault weapon and/or shooting weapons made available.

Alternatively, the DKoK have their own riders with a better save and stat line, which greatly helps them.

I was actually just contemplating starting a thread similar to this. For the "Mad Max Madness" that seems to be sweeping the boards, I'd love to do a Max-themed Guard force. Seems way too tough to do though, both in models and competitively.

Assuming someone would allow you to proxy motorcycles of some sort as Rough Riders, there's still the issue of finding suitably scaled bikes, converting Guardsmen to ride them and then getting around the fact that RR are garbage.

Same thing with Taurox; they look the part, but are hopelessly inefficient! Not to mention a lot more expensive than a Chimera $$$ wise.

I like the Rox.

Cheaper and comes with a better gun. that is twinlinked.

And both does the exact same job of moving up and dropping things off 12-18" before exploding.

RR....eh.

The Taurox is actually better than the Chimera now. It just doesn't seem like it. Both vehicles suck. The main issue is that vehicles that don't have a save are kind of garbage. Fire power has been steadily increasing and AV is barely a defense in most cases as many armies can easily leverage lots of anti tank fire power. This has offset the change to the damage table. Now you just get glanced to death. Transports that do not have jink are complete crap because they have no chance to ignore glances.

Comparing the two vehicles directly, neither vehicle is really worth the price. For the price of a plasma gun, you get 1AV and a lasgun array and lose a twin-linked weapon. Because for the previously mentioned problem non of those upgrades is worth the points. It is also important to not that both vehicles are still side AV 10. So it is really easy to circumvent that armor bonus. With the taurox you get a free dozer blade and a TL Str 7 weapon. That is a lot better. A taurox that has 12 inch charges into ruins and snap shooting its twin-linked weapon is way better than a chimera with +1AV and 15 more point cost. And both are likely to die before long so why are you spending points? The only advantage the chimera still has is the ability to give orders.

Again I will say that both options are kind of crap now and standard vehicles on the whole are in the toilet, but the chimera just isn't as useful any more compared to the taurox.

So I'm basically hearing - don't use transports now?

Are they all paper thin? Or do you just assume they will die pretty easily and that's an accepted part of the risk?

 Ealdwulf wrote:
So I'm basically hearing - don't use transports now?

Are they all paper thin? Or do you just assume they will die pretty easily and that's an accepted part of the risk?

I dont think its as bad as it was a little before.

Most vehicles just melted due to the insanity that is Wave serpeants with there ST7 ignore cover 60" bull gak

But there is still a LOT of ST7+ Weapons out there that will gak all over vehicles.

Its doable with a decent amount of terrain but you cannot use them as a crutch.

 Ealdwulf wrote:
So I'm basically hearing - don't use transports now?

Are they all paper thin? Or do you just assume they will die pretty easily and that's an accepted part of the risk?

Die pretty easy and you have to be ready to throw them away. IG is so slow that you really need them. In 7th mobility is king and you have to always be scoring no matter what. Even to the point of sacrificing units. This has been proven in nearly every game I have played. Including one where I guy threw a wraithknight to the slaughter just to score two points, which were two points that won him the game.

You still need transports because it is the only way to get anywhere its just your options suck and you have to be ready for them to die.

 Desubot wrote:

 Ealdwulf wrote:
So I'm basically hearing - don't use transports now?

Are they all paper thin? Or do you just assume they will die pretty easily and that's an accepted part of the risk?

I dont think its as bad as it was a little before.

Most vehicles just melted due to the insanity that is Wave serpeants with there ST7 ignore cover 60" bull gak

But there is still a LOT of ST7+ Weapons out there that will gak all over vehicles.

Its doable with a decent amount of terrain but you cannot use them as a crutch.

That's been nerfed, along with stupid laser-lock.
I totally agree with nedTCM and I use 2 Rox's in my maelstrom games with decent results.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Ealdwulf wrote:
So I'm basically hearing - don't use transports now?

Are they all paper thin? Or do you just assume they will die pretty easily and that's an accepted part of the risk?

I dont think its as bad as it was a little before.

Most vehicles just melted due to the insanity that is Wave serpeants with there ST7 ignore cover 60" bull gak

But there is still a LOT of ST7+ Weapons out there that will gak all over vehicles.

Its doable with a decent amount of terrain but you cannot use them as a crutch.

That's been nerfed, along with stupid laser-lock.
I totally agree with nedTCM and I use 2 Rox's in my maelstrom games with decent results.

Thats what i was saying its not as bad as it was before...

RR: el cheapo objective grabberino. They're basically obsolete eith allies and I would not expect to see them in the next guard Dex at all unless they're relaunched as a new kit (which is possible as the only other thing they have to do is the dated looking guard infantry-and I'm not holding my breath as they didn't redo any of the dated Eldar troops). It seems like GWs current shtick is remaking weird old stuff nobody has or uses as either mandatory buys in their game breaking formations (windriders, assault marines) or making them new factions (techpriests, harlequins).

So it's possible we'll see a rerelease but I think it's more likely to see regiment upgrade sprues. They could recreate every regiment in the game with plastic heads and lasgun arms. 20$ a sprue, include 5 heads 5 lasguns 1 set of special weapon posed arms and some goodies for a Sargeant.

People often malign the poor Rough Riders but most people don't use them properly. They are not great assault units, they are not good shooting units either and because of that people say they are the worst unit in the codex.

Then what are they?
They are mobile special weapon support with other tactical options.

As an example -
For x points you can buy a Special Weapons Squad with 3x Flamers.
For x+20 points, you can get a Rough Rider Squad with 2x Flamers but with double the mobility.

The reason why the RR's are superior to SWS's in my mind is because they can be more easily relocated to apply their special weapons or to act as a speed-bump for an assault unit.

Whilst the Sentinel is a contender for the same role, Rough Riders make more sense in an infantry based army. If there are very few vehicles, a Sentinel would draw the enemy's AT fire and would die faster (Rough Riders are considered inferior units and so therefore won't attract much fire). Plus Rough Riders have a smaller silhouette and so therefore can make better use of cover and LOS.

How would people feel about Bolt Action vehicles used as proxies for Tauroxes?

 Otto Weston wrote:
People often malign the poor Rough Riders but most people don't use them properly. They are not great assault units, they are not good shooting units either and because of that people say they are the worst unit in the codex.

Then what are they?
They are mobile special weapon support with other tactical options.

As an example -
For XX points you can buy a Special Weapons Squad with 3x Flamers.
For XX points, you can get a Rough Rider Squad with 2x Flamers but with double the mobility.

The reason why the RR's are superior to SWS's in my mind is because they can be more easily relocated to apply their special weapons or to act as a speed-bump for an assault unit.

Whilst the Sentinel is a contender for the same role, Rough Riders make more sense in an infantry based army. If there are very few vehicles, a Sentinel would draw the enemy's AT fire and would die faster (Rough Riders are considered inferior units and so therefore won't attract much fire). Plus Rough Riders have a smaller silhouette and so therefore can make better use of cover and LOS.

RR with 2 flamers cost more than that and you should probably remove those values. RR are pointless as anyone who knows what they are will simply kill them before before they go anywhere. They are insanely easy to remove and get no durability bonus. They are likely to kill themselves from dangerous terrain as well since they only have a 5+ save so it can be hard to put them in cover.

In combat they sometimes work well against their prime target, which is 3+ save units. This only really works when you have enough guys left alive to make the charge do enough damage. Their WS, T, and save are so poor that they can still lose combat in the counter assault and then fail their poor leadership. At range, you can have some luck with 2 melta RR or 2 flamers, but in generally they just fall flat.

They just cost way to much for what they bring to the table. I wish that were not the case because they are fun to try, but they just die in droves before they do anything useful.

RR's sadly really have no purpose anymore. They're awful units. They have never really been "good" units, ever, but at least in 5E they were useful as a counter-assault unit being held in reserve to come on and engage things like drop pod marines and the like. With the current reserve rules, they can no longer function in this manner. Even with that however, they were only of any value for a single assault phase, and only if they were able to charge, if they got charged, they were useless.

As noted, the DKoK ones are much more functional, even if not particularly great.

As for the Taurox, it's only advantage is that it's able to put S7 fire downrange more cheaply than a Chimera. Aside from that, largely it was a pointless and much derided inclusion.

 Otto Weston wrote:
People often malign the poor Rough Riders but most people don't use them properly. They are not great assault units, they are not good shooting units either and because of that people say they are the worst unit in the codex.

Then what are they?
They are mobile special weapon support with other tactical options.

As an example -
For 45 points you can buy a Special Weapons Squad with 3x Flamers.
For 55 points, you can get a Rough Rider Squad with 2x Flamers but with double the mobility.

You're off a bit there, the RR's at minmum size with two flamers cost more than that, they cost what a Chimera does, which is 44% more than the SWS.

Rough riders are arguably the worst elite choice in the game (guard elites is probably the worst slot in the game) with ratlings contending for their spot. Wyrdvanes are down there too

The problem with the taurox is its $ price and its aesthetic. It's cheaper, with a free rough terrain mod, and better weaponry. If I didn't have four chimeras already and were somehow willing to pay $50 for a 50 point unit, I'd be using tauroxes.

Rough riders should always start the game in reserves and be equipped with two flamers. When they arrive they have a massive threat range along your entire table edge and can put tons of flamer wounds down on any enemy deep strikers, infiltrators, outflankers, etc. If the unit spends its time shooting at your cheap unit of rough riders, then they are stuck in the open next turn since they can't assault anybody else.

 TheSilo wrote:
The problem with the taurox is its $ price and its aesthetic. It's cheaper, with a free rough terrain mod, and better weaponry. If I didn't have four chimeras already and were somehow willing to pay $50 for a 50 point unit, I'd be using tauroxes.

Rough riders should always start the game in reserves and be equipped with two flamers. When they arrive they have a massive threat range along your entire table edge and can put tons of flamer wounds down on any enemy deep strikers, infiltrators, outflankers, etc. If the unit spends its time shooting at your cheap unit of rough riders, then they are stuck in the open next turn since they can't assault anybody else.

Great responses so far - sounds like the Taurox is the cheaper option for something that is mostly necessary for IG to get into scoring position. You just have to accept the inevitable loss to enemy fire?

As for the looks of it - I really don't mind it, but I'd augment it with the wheeled chassis from Victoria Miniatures, which I think makes it look more "Safari" like, and given that my Imperial guard are Praetorians - that suits me fine.

The Rough Riders sound like they have extremely limited uses? Would it be worth while to proxy them as SM bikes/allies? Or is that too many degrees of separation?

On another note, as a yank, can someone tell me what exactly "gak" means? Is that the Texan equal to "bs"? haha thanks.

Yes, Rough Riders are a joke. Do not bother with them unless you're playing in extreme casual environments and/or for fluff reasons.

As for Tauroxes, they're pretty gak as well, BUT personally I am a proponent of the Taurox Prime - the costliest variant armed with the Missile Launcher and the TL-Autocannon

It packs a lot of BS4 firepower (which makes all the difference in a majority BS3 IG army) and most importantly, is a fast vehicle, meaning it can move 12" AND shoot BOTH weapons at full BS while normal vehicles can only move 6" and shoot ONE weapon at full BS.

Right positioning etc. will make the Taurox Prime a decent vehicle hunter, and the fact that it can carry a cargo of specialists is the icing on the cake.

Edited by RiTides - Please don't circumvent the swear filter

 Sir Arun wrote:
Yes, Rough Riders are a joke. Do not bother with them unless you're playing in extreme casual environments and/or for fluff reasons.

As for Tauroxes, they're pretty gak as well, BUT personally I am a proponent of the Taurox Prime - the costliest variant armed with the Missile Launcher and the TL-Autocannon

It packs a lot of BS4 firepower (which makes all the difference in a majority BS3 IG army) and most importantly, is a fast vehicle, meaning it can move 12" AND shoot BOTH weapons at full BS while normal vehicles can only move 6" and shoot ONE weapon at full BS.

Right positioning etc. will make the Taurox Prime a decent vehicle hunter, and the fact that it can carry a cargo of specialists is the icing on the cake.

The problem with the Taurox Prime, to me at least, is that it's absurdly expensive for what it does. It's little better armored than a Trukk or Raider, worse armored than a Rhino, doesn't get Skimmer bonuses like the most similarly priced transports in other books, is creeping solidly into Battle Tank costing. After missile launcher and smoke launchers, it's only like 5pts less than a Wave Serpent.

Rough riders are pretty decent if you use them correctly.

A barebones squad with a meltabomb sarge will be very annoying to your opponent's vehicles. And even MC will loose a wound or two from them charging. The main thing is that you want them to hide out of los.

Huh? The Missile Launcher Taurox Prime costs about as much as a Devilfish.

You have to use it as a glass cannon - just like Dark Eldar player do with all their vehicles. Zip from LoS blocking cover to cover, then target a single tank and take the first shot at it, potentially crippling it (crew shaken should be enough to not make it fire back at you)

 Ealdwulf wrote:
So - full disclosure, I have NOT played with these units.

I haven't played in years, but these are two units that I like the look/idea of, but I can wrap my head around the usefulness of them, stats-wise.

I'd love to convert some Tauroxs as Safari vehicles for my Praetorian-ish guard army idea and use Anzacs as scouts on rough riders - are either of these units effective? Because stats wise they look hard to use. I'm not a power gamer, I'm usually all for fluff anyways, so if they're halfway effective I'd still use them, and maybe even if they weren't half way effective haha.

Rough riders hit hard at I5 on the charge. That is a very good thing. They are kind of like a suicide squad because they crush one enemy with prejudice and with confidence most of the time.

They are fast and can be used as reserves as well. They can be walked up behind walls of iron. they are pretty fun. I can't say that they are the "strongest" use of the slot, but I can say that they are devastating when allowed to do what they were meant to do. Putting them into that position requires a bit of Generalship.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Huh? The Missile Launcher Taurox Prime costs about as much as a Devilfish.

Base the Taurox Prime is as much as a base devilfish, with the missile launcher it increases its base price by 25% to be as much as a Thunderfire Cannon, adding in smoke launchers puts it 5pts under a Wave Serpent and just 15pts under some Leman Russ variants.

You have to use it as a glass cannon - just like Dark Eldar player do with all their vehicles. Zip from LoS blocking cover to cover, then target a single tank and take the first shot at it, potentially crippling it (crew shaken should be enough to not make it fire back at you)

Right, but the problem is that it costs 2x what DE transports cost.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ealdwulf wrote:
So - full disclosure, I have NOT played with these units.

I haven't played in years, but these are two units that I like the look/idea of, but I can wrap my head around the usefulness of them, stats-wise.

I'd love to convert some Tauroxs as Safari vehicles for my Praetorian-ish guard army idea and use Anzacs as scouts on rough riders - are either of these units effective? Because stats wise they look hard to use. I'm not a power gamer, I'm usually all for fluff anyways, so if they're halfway effective I'd still use them, and maybe even if they weren't half way effective haha.

Rough riders hit hard at I5 on the charge. That is a very good thing. They are kind of like a suicide squad because they crush one enemy with prejudice and with confidence most of the time.

They are fast and can be used as reserves as well. They can be walked up behind walls of iron. they are pretty fun. I can't say that they are the "strongest" use of the slot, but I can say that they are devastating when allowed to do what they were meant to do. Putting them into that position requires a bit of Generalship.

With the size of the models, and the way LoS works, it's almost impossible to prevent them getting blown off the board relatively easily, especially when often they're simply the only infantry target available to engage. If you can keep them out of LoS entirely and position them for a charge that an enemy somehow isn't taking any steps to mitigate, sure, they can work great for one round. But they're not tiny units, it's very hard to keep them entirely out of LoS (particularly when you also want them positioned to engage a foe and not just hiding behind a big rock), and they die (and break) like normal guardsmen.

When you could keep them in reserve and have them assault after coming onto the board, they were kinda nifty. Now that such is not possible, they're dramatically less functional. :(

Agaain... A wall of iron is all you need!

GW could fix Rough Riders with a simple stat change: the hunting lance AP changes from 3 to 2. Suddenly people will field them, even if they are still just as bad as they were before. The mere idea that they could hurt a squad of terminators is enough for people to include them in their army.

I wish my Death Riders could be adequately hidden behind armor :( Even behind a Chimera, their upper torso's are pretty much entirely visible.

 Sir Arun wrote:
GW could fix Rough Riders with a simple stat change: the hunting lance AP changes from 3 to 2. Suddenly people will field them, even if they are still just as bad as they were before. The mere idea that they could hurt a squad of terminators is enough for people to include them in their army.

They used to work like that pre-6E

The problem with rough riders is not there weapons but there survivability, they need either toughness 4, feel no pain 6+ or 4+ armour.

Toughness 4 makes sense since they're on horseback and the rule of 40k is that beasts or bikes give their riders +1T

 Ealdwulf wrote:

Are they all paper thin? Or do you just assume they will die pretty easily and that's an accepted part of the risk?

Transports are easy to damage, and if the passengers are sitting in them there's nothing else to shoot at. But they're also cheap, protect the passengers for a turn or two and you can do desperate things like tank shocks or rams - or even just drive toward an objective. My SoB have won several games with a damaged Rhino driving up on an objective (Objective Secured if it's a troop Rhino), last one vs Eldar few weeks ago. Lol at the jetbikes that stood in close combat with a single Heavy Flamer sister for the last three turns. It was all he had left that could have contested. :-)