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So with the advent of Khorne Daemonkin, you can now create a unit of Hounds out of either book. If you just want the Hound unit, which do you find more effective? Being straight Fearless out of the Daemonkin book is nice, but if you want maximum effectiveness (Grimoire, Invisibility), you'll need an Allied Detachment anyway. Daemonkin also gives you Chaos Lords, which are pretty awesome.

Daemons gives you Troops with Warp Charges (awesome), and Rewards. Also the Warp Storm table, which can be a big help.

Obviously if you were going to make a full Khorne army or just a plain Daemon Army there's not much question, but from the perspective of a Khorne Houndstar from Daemons or a Khorne Houndstar from Daemonkin, which do you think is the better way to go?

I would find it hard to justify not taking the fearless ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you get the blood tithe. And the gorepack formation bonuses are good too

I'm doing Khorne flavored chaos and it seems like Daemonkin are a good way to go. Plus Bloodthirsters and you can take regular chaos units if you want more than just demons.

As with most things in modern 40k taking the best from both makes the strongest list.

You can take both factions in one army.

Of course you can take both, but that's not what I'm asking.

From my experience a hound star isn't that good without a Herald/Lord and cursed earth/invisibility support. Without a herald or Lord, they can get bog down by any Walkers and TEQ/MEQ with multi-wounds. Without proper buffs, they'll get own by any S8+ shooting and CC attacks. I remember my big ball of hound getting crushed by dreadknights and GK hammers. In one game mass tau missiles wiped out more than half of the unit before they can even do anything.

Overall the Daemonkin one is probably better due to Fearless. The biggest miss though will be not being able to take the Exalted Locus of Wrath to give the hounds hatred which is usually an excellent choice when running a big blob of them. And I'd certainly recommend making them invisible still which will involve allies of some sort.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Overall the Daemonkin one is probably better due to Fearless. The biggest miss though will be not being able to take the Exalted Locus of Wrath to give the hounds hatred which is usually an excellent choice when running a big blob of them. And I'd certainly recommend making them invisible still which will involve allies of some sort.

Thats wrong. Locii are the only thing KhorneKin Heralds still get.

The problem with the KhorneKin hounds is that they don't get the things that make Hounds a proper deathstar (psyker powers, grimoire). If you try to ally in those from the Dameon codex though nothing can hide in the KhorneKin hound unit since they don't have Daemonic Instability so will need their own unit to hide in and then that unit isn't getting the psy powers and grimoire to protect it so are easy to snipe out. If you're going to death star it's just easier to take Codex Daemons and hide your grimoire and such in the unit (especially since if you are death staring properly the drawback from Instability shouldn't matter because you won't be taken enough wounds to lose combat anyway)

The best use of KhorneKin hounds is to MSU them. They are durable enough to eat a solid amount of fire power, fast enough to be great objective grabbers and screens, and don't need to worry about their lack of attacks killing them off via Demonic Instability.

That's why I prefer codex daemon, I bring Belakor for invisibility to the hounds, the grimoire protects the screamer star with cursed earth. You can still run a hound star in daemonkin but yes you will need to Allie in Belakor or codex daemon for the buffs but the points can get expensive.

one advantage to the daemonkin houndstar is that the lord can do more damage to armor than the herald.
i agree though, it would need backed up by C:daemon abilities. at least the lord could carry a 4++

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Overall the Daemonkin one is probably better due to Fearless. The biggest miss though will be not being able to take the Exalted Locus of Wrath to give the hounds hatred which is usually an excellent choice when running a big blob of them. And I'd certainly recommend making them invisible still which will involve allies of some sort.

Thats wrong. Locii are the only thing KhorneKin Heralds still get.

The problem with the KhorneKin hounds is that they don't get the things that make Hounds a proper deathstar (psyker powers, grimoire). If you try to ally in those from the Dameon codex though nothing can hide in the KhorneKin hound unit since they don't have Daemonic Instability so will need their own unit to hide in and then that unit isn't getting the psy powers and grimoire to protect it so are easy to snipe out. If you're going to death star it's just easier to take Codex Daemons and hide your grimoire and such in the unit (especially since if you are death staring properly the drawback from Instability shouldn't matter because you won't be taken enough wounds to lose combat anyway)

The best use of KhorneKin hounds is to MSU them. They are durable enough to eat a solid amount of fire power, fast enough to be great objective grabbers and screens, and don't need to worry about their lack of attacks killing them off via Demonic Instability.

Yes, you're actually correct about the Loci. What I actually meant to point out is that a KD Herald joined with a hound blob can't take an Axe of Khorne to hit at initiative with AP2, which is what I often do with a Daemon houndstar. The Herald doesn't seem to be able to take any of the KD AP2 Artefact weapons either.

With the Locus available to both codexes, I still think the KD houndstar is possibly better due to fearless, unless you're facing a lot of 2+ saves. Even then you could put a Lord in there with an AP2 weapon instead of the Herald but then you'd lose the Locus unless you take a Lord and a Herald if you have a CAD.

Also with a Daemon houndstar you still need to buff them using another unit anyway as you can't hide psykers in the hound unit, and if you give the Herald the Grimoire you can't take an Axe of Khorne as well. Unless again you put 2 HQ in there and take a second Herald with an Axe.

There's lots of different combinations I suppose, which will be best would depend on what you're facing. Definitely agree that if you're doing MSU then the KD hounds are better though.

CrownAxe wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Overall the Daemonkin one is probably better due to Fearless. The biggest miss though will be not being able to take the Exalted Locus of Wrath to give the hounds hatred which is usually an excellent choice when running a big blob of them. And I'd certainly recommend making them invisible still which will involve allies of some sort.

Thats wrong. Locii are the only thing KhorneKin Heralds still get.

The problem with the KhorneKin hounds is that they don't get the things that make Hounds a proper deathstar (psyker powers, grimoire). If you try to ally in those from the Dameon codex though nothing can hide in the KhorneKin hound unit since they don't have Daemonic Instability so will need their own unit to hide in and then that unit isn't getting the psy powers and grimoire to protect it so are easy to snipe out. If you're going to death star it's just easier to take Codex Daemons and hide your grimoire and such in the unit (especially since if you are death staring properly the drawback from Instability shouldn't matter because you won't be taken enough wounds to lose combat anyway)

You can field an allied Biker Sorc from the CSM codex with lvl3 rolls on biomancy for endurance or telepathy invisibility, then there is no need to get an extra unit to hid it.

Tonberry7 wrote:

Yes, you're actually correct about the Loci. What I actually meant to point out is that a KD Herald joined with a hound blob can't take an Axe of Khorne to hit at initiative with AP2, which is what I often do with a Daemon houndstar. The Herald doesn't seem to be able to take any of the KD AP2 Artefact weapons either.

With the Locus available to both codexes, I still think the KD houndstar is possibly better due to fearless, unless you're facing a lot of 2+ saves. Even then you could put a Lord in there with an AP2 weapon instead of the Herald but then you'd lose the Locus unless you take a Lord and a Herald if you have a CAD.

Also with a Daemon houndstar you still need to buff them using another unit anyway as you can't hide psykers in the hound unit, and if you give the Herald the Grimoire you can't take an Axe of Khorne as well. Unless again you put 2 HQ in there and take a second Herald with an Axe.

There's lots of different combinations I suppose, which will be best would depend on what you're facing. Definitely agree that if you're doing MSU then the KD hounds are better though.

Actually the Herald from KDK can indeed take the Axe of Khorne, it is way too expensive thou so probably not worth it.

Actually one of the better tactics is to take the Daemonkin Hounds for fearless, an attached Lord/Sorcerer from either CSM/KDK, and an allied detachment of nurgle herald, nurgling, and bastion for maximum crazyness
That way the dogs get the absolute best of both worlds

They get fearless (100000% better than instability. Hounds always lose the majority of their unit to instability imo), the ability to join any IC from Daemonkin/CSM, and the grimoire from a bastion

That unit right there can do a number on pretty much anything you could think. Problem is that it isn't a proper deathstar without hit'n'run

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Actually one of the better tactics is to take the Daemonkin Hounds for fearless, an attached Lord/Sorcerer from either CSM/KDK, and an allied detachment of nurgle herald, nurgling, and bastion for maximum crazyness
That way the dogs get the absolute best of both worlds

They get fearless (100000% better than instability. Hounds always lose the majority of their unit to instability imo), the ability to join any IC from Daemonkin/CSM, and the grimoire from a bastion

That unit right there can do a number on pretty much anything you could think. Problem is that it isn't a proper deathstar without hit'n'run

Herald and bastion? Just run Belakor for invisibility. Running grimoire without Fateweaver's re-roll will bite you in the azz more often than not.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Actually one of the better tactics is to take the Daemonkin Hounds for fearless, an attached Lord/Sorcerer from either CSM/KDK, and an allied detachment of nurgle herald, nurgling, and bastion for maximum crazyness
That way the dogs get the absolute best of both worlds

They get fearless (100000% better than instability. Hounds always lose the majority of their unit to instability imo), the ability to join any IC from Daemonkin/CSM, and the grimoire from a bastion

That unit right there can do a number on pretty much anything you could think. Problem is that it isn't a proper deathstar without hit'n'run

Herald and bastion? Just run Belakor for invisibility. Running grimoire without Fateweaver's re-roll will bite you in the azz more often than not.

Actually it will bite you in the ass exactly half as often as not.

Which is terrible odds.

Just take chaos daemon hounds; the grimoire is superior to fearless+FnP, and you don't need to ally in psykers for psychic support.

Grimorie will eventually backfire so you'll need cursed earth to get their invulnerable save back to 5++.

I like a large squad of DK flesh hounds lead by a Lord and Herald then use Belakkor to cast invisibility on them. It's a good chunk of points but very reliable and also effective.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Actually the Herald from KDK can indeed take the Axe of Khorne, it is way too expensive thou so probably not worth it.

Could you possibly elaborate on this? I'd love it if this were true but I checked and the Herald doesn't seem to have access to the Melee weapons list where they put the axe in the KD codex. Also 30pts isn't too bad for the AP2 and Decapitating Blow.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Which is terrible odds.

Just take chaos daemon hounds; the grimoire is superior to fearless+FnP, and you don't need to ally in psykers for psychic support.

you could always go in the reverse. don't ally in daemon support to a kd list, add kd hounds to a daemon list

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Actually the Herald from KDK can indeed take the Axe of Khorne, it is way too expensive thou so probably not worth it.

Could you possibly elaborate on this? I'd love it if this were true but I checked and the Herald doesn't seem to have access to the Melee weapons list where they put the axe in the KD codex. Also 30pts isn't too bad for the AP2 and Decapitating Blow.

Uh, after rechecking no, he only has access to the bloodshed blade that gives +tithe points, but no axe of khorne. My bad.

I don't think you can look at it in a vacuum. Fearless FNP and no instability for the entire list is whatv you need to consider. Taking hounds in a daemon list opens you up for more damage overall. That and fearless hounds with a lord (I use two lords) is a deathstar.

taking them in the daemon list gives you grimoire and psychic support. combo-ing them with another star that can be protected puts them in the same role houndstars had before in daemon lists, but you'd have to weigh fearless/tithe/lord (and cultist tax) vs the c:daemon counterparts.

I'd probably take hounds in min sized units with small units of chaos melta bikers for the formation tax. That way you get a ton of blood tithe points if they die, and have a whole bunch f very fast, very threatening MSU to throw into the face of the enemy.

They are good in either codex. Good luck on finding the miniatures though. They are direct order only now and have been out of stock for quite some time.

I just got 20.