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 ImAGeek wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
God Help us if the Riptide is also a Garg Creature as well :(

I don't think so. My hunch is that this will be the Tau's GC Lord of War, and the Riptide will either stay an MC or (hopefully) be turned into a walker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:
At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?

Maybe now they have to buy them like every other army!

They do buy them, they're included in the cost of the suits/unit.

That's true, and the Battlesuit entries will not put those individual upgrades under Wargear but rather it's in the armory under the entry of <Insert suit name here>...however notice that the Wargear entry does not say "KV128 Stormsurge Ballistic Suit" like the current Tau suit entries do.

GW is still selling codex tau!?

Don't they usually pull a codex a few weeks before they release a new one?

 warboss wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

My lore-friendly explanation for the Tau having poor BS is because of their slow reflexes. Being only Initiative 2, and without the thousands of years of experience of the Necrons, they have trouble leading targets and reacting quickly. Their dexterity probably isn't great either, considering they only have three fingers on each hand.

Besides, do you really want a model with this much firepower and the ability to shoot twice having good native accuracy? I don't think so.

That's nice that you've made up fanfic to fill in gaping holes but I don't agree. In any case, their tech and AI can easily compensate. Being a great videogame players doesn't make you the best MMA fighters so the two are not 100% comparable. There are plenty of great folks who couldn't last 5 seconds in dodge ball but that can pull off ridiculous twitch combos and shots virtually. Initiative in game is a marker for physical dexterity, not shooting. As for the last part, yes, I'd be fine with that much firepower and the ability to shoot twice IF IT WERE COSTED APPROPRIATELY. That is the point in having a points cost for every unit after all. I mean... it's not like we're playing Age of Sigmar 40,000... yet.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official explanation for the Tau's mediocre BS other than "because GW says so", so you're free to disagree with me. You do make a good point about their AI and technology theoretically being able to compensate.

I think that the Stormsurge is appropriately costed. It's on the level of the Imperial Knight, but not as ridiculous as the Wraithknight. It has to give up a full turn of shooting in order to fire twice, which if feel is a balanced risk/reward tactic. It also only has a 3+ save and T6, so most weapons will actually hurt it, unlike the Wraithknight.

 crazyK wrote:
As a Tau player, I was hoping to see something other than "yet more gunline" options. I personally like bringing deepstriking and outflanking units. I am still hoping for a viable Kroot or Vespid counter assault option.

Honestly, this seems like a really good not-gunline option to me.

GC with 8 Wounds means that even with a lower toughness and 3+, it's still pretty solid and walking forward and eating damage. Move 12" per turn, fire everything, enemy has to deal with it (hopefully before it gets in range for that 10" Strength D gun) while the rest of your gunline just shoots from behind it. Kind of what the Wraithknight was supposed to be before it went full OP.

 AtoMaki wrote:
At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?

The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.

 Vryce wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?

The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.

Actually thats hugely debated...........

 Vryce wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?

The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.

The rules only state that they can fire each of the two weapons they are normally allowed to fire at different targets. There isn't a single 'all' in the whole description of the Shooting rules.

Updated OP

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?

The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.

The rules only state that they can fire each of the two weapons they are normally allowed to fire at different targets. There isn't a single 'all' in the whole description of the Shooting rules.

It doesn't give any numbers - the rules say they can fire each of their weapons, at different targets if they desire. If they have two weapons, they can fire each of them. If they have 247 million, they can fire each of them.

I don't understand the confusion.

 Vryce wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?

The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.

The rules only state that they can fire each of the two weapons they are normally allowed to fire at different targets. There isn't a single 'all' in the whole description of the Shooting rules.

It doesn't give any numbers - the rules say they can fire each of their weapons, at different targets if they desire. If they have two weapons, they can fire each of them. If they have 247 million, they can fire each of them.

I don't understand the confusion.

Gargantuan Creatures follow the Monstrous Creatures' rules for Shooting. The MC Shooting rules specifically state that they can fire only 2 weapons.

XV8 Battlesuit Commander
No longer available on GB website

Please take the dead horse that is the GC shooting debate elsewhere.

 ultimentra wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

My lore-friendly explanation for the Tau having poor BS is because of their slow reflexes. Being only Initiative 2, and without the thousands of years of experience of the Necrons, they have trouble leading targets and reacting quickly. Their dexterity probably isn't great either, considering they only have three fingers on each hand.

Besides, do you really want a model with this much firepower and the ability to shoot twice having good native accuracy? I don't think so.

That's nice that you've made up fanfic to fill in gaping holes but I don't agree. In any case, their tech and AI can easily compensate. Being a great videogame players doesn't make you the best MMA fighters so the two are not 100% comparable. There are plenty of great folks who couldn't last 5 seconds in dodge ball but that can pull off ridiculous twitch combos and shots virtually. Initiative in game is a marker for physical dexterity, not shooting. As for the last part, yes, I'd be fine with that much firepower and the ability to shoot twice IF IT WERE COSTED APPROPRIATELY. That is the point in having a points cost for every unit after all. I mean... it's not like we're playing Age of Sigmar 40,000... yet.

By that same argument you would think that Baneblades, some of the most advanced tanks the imperium has with advanced systems and mechanicus yadda yadda that those would be BS4 too. Nope, BS 3 just like every other Guard vehicle. Unless you buy the extra upgrade on Shadowsword for targeters at the expense of your sponson weapons. Oh yea, Guard don't get markerlights either! They only get the occasional psyker support if they're lucky...sometimes not so lucky...

Baneblades aren't a good comparison but Knights are and iirc bs4. In any case, I'd be fine with tau suits having an upgrade that cost them a slot like you're suggesting with baneblades because that is what they used to have. Sadly, upgrades don't give GW money and charging for new models that have the markerlight rules do so that won out. Just don't kid yourself that it has something to do with fluff or balance though. It was a business decision.

 Talys wrote:
Well, it's GC LoW, which means in FLG tournaments, you won't be able to take more than one. I doubt that they'll adjust the rules to allow taking of a squad of 3. After all, this isn't IoM

Adjust what rules? The rules say it's a squad of 1-3. The only reason you couldn't take more than one is if points didn't allow it or if the local tournament house rules it out.

And if they house rule it out then I would expect this same tournament to prevent multiple wraithknights and IK armies from showing up.

^ They typically do.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official explanation for the Tau's mediocre BS other than "because GW says so", so you're free to disagree with me. You do make a good point about their AI and technology theoretically being able to compensate.

I think that the Stormsurge is appropriately costed. It's on the level of the Imperial Knight, but not as ridiculous as the Wraithknight. It has to give up a full turn of shooting in order to fire twice, which if feel is a balanced risk/reward tactic. It also only has a 3+ save and T6, so most weapons will actually hurt it, unlike the Wraithknight.

Actually I believe there was. Source was either the Firewarrior novel, first Codex, or the fire warrior game (maybe a chapter approved article way back then). The issue of poor BS related to their vision and a difficulty with depth perception. Even then we were all of the idea that technology should be able to compensate for that. Maybe they don't understand that They have an issue with depth perception and think the fix for poor BS is a metric crap ton of S5 shots. Spray and pray ballistic skill

I agree with the poster that stated they like the model but won't preorder. I too will wait to see the full codex before any purchases.

 Talys wrote:
Speaking of money, I see Faeit say GBP90 for the price. I guess that will be around USD$148, CAD$179 (some number about between the prices of Knight Warden and Knight Errant) and in Australia... $80,000.

Stormsurge is $123 on ebay (preorders) by some guy....

I know it's a blurry image, but to me it looks like the Cluster Rockets might actually be Str 5 AP 3. The Pulse Blastcannon 20-30" range looks like it's Str 9 AP 3 (AP 5 wouldn't make sense to me) and that 3 looks an awful lot like the AP on the rocket profile.

Will the missile riptide be coming in a kit with the normal riptide parts added on, sort of like the hammerhead/skyray box?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?

The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.

The rules only state that they can fire each of the two weapons they are normally allowed to fire at different targets. There isn't a single 'all' in the whole description of the Shooting rules.

It doesn't give any numbers - the rules say they can fire each of their weapons, at different targets if they desire. If they have two weapons, they can fire each of them. If they have 247 million, they can fire each of them.

I don't understand the confusion.

Gargantuan Creatures follow the Monstrous Creatures' rules for Shooting. The MC Shooting rules specifically state that they can fire only 2 weapons.

And then it states it may fire EACH of its weapons. Which modifies the base rule in the MC and removes the limit.

Crystal Clear. So clear the ITC has ruled it so.

 Fishboy wrote:

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official explanation for the Tau's mediocre BS other than "because GW says so", so you're free to disagree with me. You do make a good point about their AI and technology theoretically being able to compensate.

I think that the Stormsurge is appropriately costed. It's on the level of the Imperial Knight, but not as ridiculous as the Wraithknight. It has to give up a full turn of shooting in order to fire twice, which if feel is a balanced risk/reward tactic. It also only has a 3+ save and T6, so most weapons will actually hurt it, unlike the Wraithknight.

Actually I believe there was. Source was either the Firewarrior novel, first Codex, or the fire warrior game (maybe a chapter approved article way back then). The issue of poor BS related to their vision and a difficulty with depth perception. Even then we were all of the idea that technology should be able to compensate for that. Maybe they don't understand that They have an issue with depth perception and think the fix for poor BS is a metric crap ton of S5 shots. Spray and pray ballistic skill

I agree with the poster that stated they like the model but won't preorder. I too will wait to see the full codex before any purchases.

I believe it was the Xenology book and the Imperial Anatomist was surmising that they had poor depth perception. In any case, that's hardly a reason to keep them at BS3 until they miraculously jump to BS5 for commanders. I'm not saying grunts like FW or pathfinders should be BS4 or have the option for it but rather the grizzled veterans with very advanced tech that 100% make up the suits.

Wow, I'm very impressed by this as it shows GW is working hard on making the game a lot more fun for everyone, and this is a good example of horizontal power growth.

The Stormsurge looks reasonably powerful, but it's not exactly more powerful than what we already have. So while I might get one eventually, because I'm not the biggest fan of the model,I'm happy I still have the option of fielding other things like the Riptide without actually making my list worse for it. Basically for those who like it, they get something cool, and for those of us who don't we get an option, but aren't forced into taking it if we want to be competitive.

Edit: Also do we know when the new codex is out?

Stuff like that, I tend to find, is meant to be more of a piece of humor rather than a fluffy and canonical explanation for in-game things.

Basic guardsman with bs 3 is at the same capabilities as a modern day special forces soldier. Your platoon based grunts aren't nobodies with only a couple fights under their belts, they are normally the top 10% of a whole planets military who then spend time being indoctrinated and honed into an even better soldier enroute.

Conscripts and cultists are the half trained chattel you are looking for. The universe is full of bigger harassed, doesn't mean that guardsmen aren't capable fighters.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Basic guardsman with bs 3 is at the same capabilities as a modern day special forces soldier. Your platoon based grunts aren't nobodies with only a couple fights under their belts, they are normally the top 10% of a whole planets military who then spend time being indoctrinated and honed into an even better soldier enroute.

Conscripts and cultists are the half trained chattel you are looking for. The universe is full of bigger harassed, doesn't mean that guardsmen aren't capable fighters.

\
I wouldn't say modern day special forces. Modern day forces however I would agree on.

Edit: OTOH, tau are trained literally from birth, sleep far less than humans (which adds up over time), have some damn amazing technology, and to gain a regular suit it means a minimum of four years on the line and passing a trial by fire. The people who are piolting these are going to be Shas'vre at least (so minimum 12 years and 3 TBF), if not Shas'el (16 years and 4 TBF).

 Fishboy wrote:

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official explanation for the Tau's mediocre BS other than "because GW says so", so you're free to disagree with me. You do make a good point about their AI and technology theoretically being able to compensate.

I think that the Stormsurge is appropriately costed. It's on the level of the Imperial Knight, but not as ridiculous as the Wraithknight. It has to give up a full turn of shooting in order to fire twice, which if feel is a balanced risk/reward tactic. It also only has a 3+ save and T6, so most weapons will actually hurt it, unlike the Wraithknight.

Actually I believe there was. Source was either the Firewarrior novel, first Codex, or the fire warrior game (maybe a chapter approved article way back then). The issue of poor BS related to their vision and a difficulty with depth perception. Even then we were all of the idea that technology should be able to compensate for that. Maybe they don't understand that They have an issue with depth perception and think the fix for poor BS is a metric crap ton of S5 shots. Spray and pray ballistic skill

I agree with the poster that stated they like the model but won't preorder. I too will wait to see the full codex before any purchases.

If it's good enough for the fungus it's good enough for da fish

Yeah, veterans and Stormtroopers are BS4.

Which really, means that Shas'la should be BS3 and anyone higher ranked BS4. At the very least by the time you're a riptide pilot you'd think you'd qualify as a veteran.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Basic guardsman with bs 3 is at the same capabilities as a modern day special forces soldier. Your platoon based grunts aren't nobodies with only a couple fights under their belts, they are normally the top 10% of a whole planets military who then spend time being indoctrinated and honed into an even better soldier enroute.

Conscripts and cultists are the half trained chattel you are looking for. The universe is full of bigger harassed, doesn't mean that guardsmen aren't capable fighters.

\
I wouldn't say modern day special forces. Modern day forces however I would agree on.

Edit: OTOH, tau are trained literally from birth, sleep far less than humans (which adds up over time), have some damn amazing technology, and to gain a regular suit it means a minimum of four years on the line and passing a trial by fire. The people who are piolting these are going to be Shas'vre at least (so minimum 12 years and 3 TBF), if not Shas'el (16 years and 4 TBF).

Are conscripts BS2? Here's where a d6 based game fails in nuancing relative levels of skill and/or experience.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Basic guardsman with bs 3 is at the same capabilities as a modern day special forces soldier. Your platoon based grunts aren't nobodies with only a couple fights under their belts, they are normally the top 10% of a whole planets military who then spend time being indoctrinated and honed into an even better soldier enroute.

Conscripts and cultists are the half trained chattel you are looking for. The universe is full of bigger harassed, doesn't mean that guardsmen aren't capable fighters.

This view on guardsmen is really annoying, and also fundamentally impossible due to the numbers of guardsmen we know to exist in Universe (Billions).

Nearly all special forces on this planet are actually special, they have attributes that make them capable of becoming special forces. Not all people have this (many many many don't), especially their ability to make quick and correct decisions in literally life and death situations.

It is so impossible to make whole armies of these sort of recruits it is laughable. You can't just conscript and train these soldiers up and then throw them into the meat grinder with ridiculously poor planning and with a piecemeal attitude. The equivalent humans of modern day special forces in 40k timeline are storm troopers (marines don't count for obvious 'they aint human' reasons).

If you want to say that guardsmen are elite, as in inline with modern day marines etc, then fine, whatever, that is still debatable due to numbers they can provide, but they are NOT special forces.

Some people try to talk guardsmen up in this game so much to compensate for the injustice (to them) that marines (in game ones) are better that they convince themselves they are these gods of war. They are not, they are grubs, and not worth a lot either.

The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.