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I was really anticipating my army getting a cool new ruleset. I had been making do with the legion codex which grants your choice of stubborn or furious charge and had had some success. But some of the legion rules really do make or break the army (unless you are a tank or titan heavy maniac )

So I was really disappointed with the Ultramarines rules.

Most of the legion rules provide some form of buff at very little disadvantage. For example, World Eaters get rage as a USR and the "disadvantage" is that they have to consolidate towards the nearest enemy unit. Neat, fluffy anda no brainer option that's better than a vanilla legion.

Ultramarines are actually worse with their legion rules. The "Rigid Chain of Command" means that if you lose all your HQ choices then your opponent gains another VP ontop of any slay the warlord. Not only that, (Iron Warriors have a similar rule) but this forces the ENTIRE ARMY to make an immediate pinning test. That can potentially be a crippling blow and its painfully easy to remove T4 characters in games of HH with the level of ordinance being casually tossed about. Remember, most legions only get buffs or at the very most a modest disadvantage. Not something that could potentially ruin the game for you.

So surely FW would, in the interests of balance, give you an amazing set of buffs to counter such a disadvantage; just like the Night Lords with their bonuses to wound, cover saves and night vision?

Well, they get :

May re-roll rolls to wound of a one provided another Ultra unit has already shot it. This is such a terrible rule. It confers zero benefit, its very unlikely to happen, especially since HH is built around huge blobs of infantry not lots of min max units. In fact units are cheaper the bigger you make them. For a comparison legion who gets buffed shooting you have the Imperial Fists who get outright BS5 on all their bolt weapons. But for the Ultra rule to kick in you have to hit and may then only re roll one in three of your failed wound rolls and you only get that if another squad has already shot the unit. Its like one of those bonuses you would actually forget about because its so irrelevant and pointless.I mean do they really think I am going to have a tactical squad shooting a land raider so my cyclone terminators can re-roll ones? Why, the price of a tac squad is so high it always makes more sense to bring more dakka.

May take fear and regroup tests at 10. Again, Death Guard are outright immune to fear and this is a very negligible bonus since very few units have fear to begin with. No point regrouping if the enemy has chased you down. See Word Bearers who get three dice on all morale checks and take the lowest.

If an Ultra unit is locked in combat (so by some miracle your shooty unit was not annialated and swept by a CC heavy legion) you may re roll the charge of another ultra unit that tries to join the combat. Much like the re roll one rule this a highly circumstantial rule and doesn't confer any real benefit. Most shooty armies will be set up to allow you to intercede easily enough anyway. Plus you want to be gunning down dangerous assault units, not counter assaulting.

Basically I think FW tried to be too clever. They wanted the Ultra army to focus on synergy but instead they came up with some gimmicky rules that will only work when the stars are aligned and confer at best laughable bonuses. Clearly they felt these abilities were powerful enough to justify slapping massive armywide penalty onto them.You have to understand, some of the legion rules are extremely good. The aforementioned Imperial Fists, Iron Hands with their plus 1 T on shooting, Salamanders flamers and the insane Alpha Legion pick and mix USR army buffs. Why not just give all Ultramarines counterattack? Its just really out of sync with their design philosophy.


The rite of war and the special units are good. Obviously FW wants to sell lots of Suzerains and cyclone terminators (which is probably the only way of making the army viable) but its a real shame. The armies legion rules are just crippling. I would honestly consider going back to using the regular codex legion rules. Armywide stubborn is so, so much better than the stupid re roll 1 rule.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It confers zero benefit, its very unlikely to happen, especially since HH is built around huge blobs of infantry not lots of min max units.

Except this is why the rule will be useful very frequently. Having most armies built around huge infantry blobs means that it takes shooting from multiple units to kill a target. So even if you don't have a cheap unit to "markerlight" the target you'll almost certainly be shooting it with two or more of your huge infantry blobs. And that means at least half of your shooting gets the re-roll.

But again, how does that compare to a flat "all bolters are BS5" and flat "all heavy support units get the tank hunters USR" type rules?

Haven't seen the UM rules in the flesh yet myself, but they do seem very niche compared to the rules other legions get.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
But again, how does that compare to a flat "all bolters are BS5" and flat "all heavy support units get the tank hunters USR" type rules?

Because it applies to bolters and other weapons? Re-rolling 1s with bolters against MEQs is a 16.5% increase in firepower, compared to a 25% increase from improving BS 4 to BS 5. So that's 2/3 of the bonus to bolters, but then Ultramarines get a bonus to everything else to make up for it. I think you'll notice the difference when your bolter squad "markerlights" a target and then your plasma squad finishes it off. And the same is true with tank hunters: a more powerful specialist rule vs. a less powerful rule that applies to more units/targets.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It confers zero benefit, its very unlikely to happen, especially since HH is built around huge blobs of infantry not lots of min max units.

Except this is why the rule will be useful very frequently. Having most armies built around huge infantry blobs means that it takes shooting from multiple units to kill a target. So even if you don't have a cheap unit to "markerlight" the target you'll almost certainly be shooting it with two or more of your huge infantry blobs. And that means at least half of your shooting gets the re-roll.

No, the best way to deal with big blobs is to take big blasts, plasma predators and other assorted nastiness that doesn't benefit from this rule BTW. Or a Fellblade, which laughs at this rule. Plus, as an aside, most heresy armies are tank heavy and don't have a large model count relative to the points value.

Lets compare a squad of 20 Ultra tacticals (assuming for arguments sake they already have the buff) versus 20 Imperial Fists (who don't need anything to get their buff)

Assume they Fury.

Ultra

40 shots each

26.67 hits

13 wounds

Plus

Further two wounds from re roll ones

Five marines fail their armor saves from these fifteen wounds

Imperial Fists

40 shots

33.33 hits

16.66 wounds

5.56 marines fail their armor saves

So, just using maths, the Ultra rule is slightly worse in theory. But, its much more circumstantial, not all of your units will get this ability. If you are like me and you have three blobs of twenty tacticals then IF they all fire at one squad (hugely unlikely if you are playing on the correct board size for heresy) then only two of those squads get this buff. Also, in practice you are hugely relying on luck on how many ones you roll to wound. BS5 to hit is simply much more guaranteed because its the first roll you make and you won't get as many potential ones for your Ultra if you miss with most of your shots. So, again, in practice it makes a neglible difference. It certainly isn't on par with the likes of Iron Hands nor does it justify a broken mechanic that pins the entire army.

You make the comparison to markerlights but its not even remotely comparable. Just four markerlight hits can boost your BS by two and ignore all cover. Then they can grant this boost to any unit in the army regardless of weapon type. The Ultra rule is too circumstantial and has too many restrictions tied to it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
But again, how does that compare to a flat "all bolters are BS5" and flat "all heavy support units get the tank hunters USR" type rules?

Because it applies to bolters and other weapons? Re-rolling 1s with bolters against MEQs is a 16.5% increase in firepower, compared to a 25% increase from improving BS 4 to BS 5. So that's 2/3 of the bonus to bolters, but then Ultramarines get a bonus to everything else to make up for it. I think you'll notice the difference when your bolter squad "markerlights" a target and then your plasma squad finishes it off. And the same is true with tank hunters: a more powerful specialist rule vs. a less powerful rule that applies to more units/targets.

Plasma guns are already killing everything on twos and there are much better ways of getting actual tank hunters without me shooting boltguns at land raiders. There is no logic in having a ten man tactical marine squad, 150pts, shadowing a plasma squad so that it can re-roll 1s. You can't buy cheap five man units, its completely unusable in games of zone mortalis where your units are almost always alone.

Plus why would I be insane enough to pay that many points on a plasma gun squad? One pie plate and they're gone.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
No, the best way to deal with big blobs is to take big blasts, plasma predators and other assorted nastiness that doesn't benefit from this rule BTW.

Maybe if people are stupid and deploy their models in perfect template formation. A plasma Predator is a joke when it can only hit three models per turn, and then has its damage reduced even more by cover saves. Have fun shooting a plasma Predator at a tactical squad for the entire game and still not being able to kill it.

But, its much more circumstantial, not all of your units will get this ability.

And the IF rule isn't circumstantial? It's a rule that applies to one weapon, I'd say that's a pretty good definition of 'circumstantial'. For example, what happens in your fight between tactical squads when a heavy support squad full of krak missiles decides to enter the fight? The Ultramarines squad does 16.5% more damage, which (percentage-wise) is more of an increase than the 11% more wounds the IF bolters inflicted.

Also, in practice you are hugely relying on luck on how many ones you roll to wound. BS5 to hit is simply much more guaranteed because its the first roll you make and you won't get as many potential ones for your Ultra if you miss with most of your shots.

You don't understand how math works. Which die a re-roll or bonus applies to is irrelevant, all that matters is the magnitude of the effect on that die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Plasma guns are already killing everything on twos

What's your point? Re-rolling 1s to wound with plasma guns is still a 16.5% increase in firepower. Do the math before you make assumptions about how valuable an ability is.

and there are much better ways of getting actual tank hunters without me shooting boltguns at land raiders.

Really? So defining your entire army by your choice of legion is easier than having a random bolter marine (the last survivor of a squad, who will probably never accomplish anything by himself) forfeit its single bolter shot to give a better unit a significant firepower increase?

There is no logic in having a ten man tactical marine squad, 150pts, shadowing a plasma squad so that it can re-roll 1s.

But the point is that you don't have this specific assignment. Virtually every target you shoot at is going to require multiple shooting units to kill it, so the Ultramarines rule will apply by default. The only way you won't get to use it is if you're bad at the game and never bother to focus fire on key targets, but if that's the case you're going to lose no matter what legion you pick.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
No, the best way to deal with big blobs is to take big blasts, plasma predators and other assorted nastiness that doesn't benefit from this rule BTW.

Maybe if people are stupid and deploy their models in perfect template formation. A plasma Predator is a joke when it can only hit three models per turn, and then has its damage reduced even more by cover saves. Have fun shooting a plasma Predator at a tactical squad for the entire game and still not being able to kill it.

But, its much more circumstantial, not all of your units will get this ability.

And the IF rule isn't circumstantial? It's a rule that applies to one weapon, I'd say that's a pretty good definition of 'circumstantial'. For example, what happens in your fight between tactical squads when a heavy support squad full of krak missiles decides to enter the fight? The Ultramarines squad does 16.5% more damage, which (percentage-wise) is more of an increase than the 11% more wounds the IF bolters inflicted.

Also, in practice you are hugely relying on luck on how many ones you roll to wound. BS5 to hit is simply much more guaranteed because its the first roll you make and you won't get as many potential ones for your Ultra if you miss with most of your shots.

You don't understand how math works. Which die a re-roll or bonus applies to is irrelevant, all that matters is the magnitude of the effect on that die.

Um, right. 3 plasma pred with three shots each. Even IF they only hit one model that's nine hits. Before they shoot their lascannon sponsons. Or I just shoot a fellblade at the squad and laugh. Seriously I've cleared whole squads like that whereas fury tac squads inflict pathetic casualties. You remind me of a mate of mine who takes one ten man squad tactical squad (whereas I take three blobs of twenty) and he keeps going on and on about how effective infantry are. But he never uses infantry and has the most tank heavy force of anyone. HH is not about infantry, even less so than 40k.

I don't need to re-roll ones to destroy a squad with krak missiles. Again, 150pts upgrade. I could get a master of signals for less (plus an orbital bombardment) and make them BS5 for less points.

Iron Hands have toughness 5 versus shooting.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd much rather have had an actual buff instead of some mediocre rules that don't offset my army offering up free victory points and taking an armywide pinning test.


"A single squad survivor". Right, so I assume the other 19 have already died? How is describing a super circumstantial event selling this?


Where are you getting 16.67% bonus from

1 shot

0.5 chance to hit

1 in 3 misses may be re-rolled

That gets you to about 15% but you still have to actually roll to wound again.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
3 plasma pred with three shots each. Even IF they only hit one model that's nine hits. Before they shoot their lascannon sponsons.

So now you've got a really expensive tank squadron and/or you've used up all of your heavy support slots on plasma Predators. Ever wonder why IG players don't spend all of their heavy support slots on squadrons of LR executioners?

Or I just shoot a fellblade at the squad and laugh.

Well yeah, a 500+ point superheavy tank is going to hurt a ~200 point unit. But if your answer to basic bolter marines is "use my LoW" I think you have bigger strategic issues than your choice of legion.

I don't need to re-roll ones to destroy a squad with krak missiles.

Then you don't understand how math works.

Again, 150pts upgrade.

No it isn't, because you're already bringing the 150 point unit and you're already shooting it at the same target. The whole point I'm trying to explain to you is that when you have large infantry squads and/or high AV tanks it takes multiple shooting units to kill them. So in virtually every 30k situation once you pick a target you're going to shoot at it with multiple units, regardless of which legion you're playing. And the Ultramarines rule gives a significant firepower boost to every unit after the first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Seriously I've cleared whole squads like that whereas fury tac squads inflict pathetic casualties.

So then why is a special rule that only applies to these "pathetic" tactical squads so awesome?

"A single squad survivor". Right, so I assume the other 19 have already died? How is describing a super circumstantial event selling this?

That was just one example. Replace "single survivor" with "last 2-3 survivors" or whatever if you want, the point is that you'll very frequently have weak remains of units that won't accomplish much by themselves but can hand out a significant shooting boost to another unit.

Where are you getting 16.67% bonus from

A die has six sides. With bolters against MEQs you wound with 4, 5 and 6. Adding 1s would give you 33% more firepower, but you only get half of those 1s which is 16.5%. Example: 10 normal bolter shots inflict 1.111 unsaved wounds against MEQs, Ultramarines inflict 1.296 wounds. That's a difference of 0.185 wounds, which is 16.5% of 1.1111.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
3 plasma pred with three shots each. Even IF they only hit one model that's nine hits. Before they shoot their lascannon sponsons.

So now you've got a really expensive tank squadron and/or you've used up all of your heavy support slots on plasma Predators. Ever wonder why IG players don't spend all of their heavy support slots on squadrons of LR executioners?

Or I just shoot a fellblade at the squad and laugh.

Well yeah, a 500+ point superheavy tank is going to hurt a ~200 point unit. But if your answer to basic bolter marines is "use my LoW" I think you have bigger strategic issues than your choice of legion.

I don't need to re-roll ones to destroy a squad with krak missiles.

Then you don't understand how math works.

Again, 150pts upgrade.

No it isn't, because you're already bringing the 150 point unit and you're already shooting it at the same target. The whole point I'm trying to explain to you is that when you have large infantry squads and/or high AV tanks it takes multiple shooting units to kill them. So in virtually every 30k situation once you pick a target you're going to shoot at it with multiple units, regardless of which legion you're playing. And the Ultramarines rule gives a significant firepower boost to every unit after the first.

Most games of heresy are in the 4k range. I have to squadron them up in order to take the two heavy weapon squads.

You mean the lord of war that only costs as much as two 20 man blobs and can kill one a turn with impunity from across the map? Also, again, most games of heresy people are carting out titans and super heavies along with lots of tanks.

What I know is that in practice they just don't need that boost to erase a ten man squad. In the real world, re-rolls of a one, especially your second dice roll.

Which is 150pts that could be better spent than shooting their boltguns at land radiers. Plus, I keep saying 150pts with the assumption you would actually take a ten man squad and not a twenty man blob.


You're also ignoring the comparison to what other legions get, with almost no drawbacks and yet Ultra get some weak benefits for an army breaking set of limitations.

You have to take the legion as an overall package. The Ultramarines don't get great legion rules, but they have amazing units, great unique wargear (at-initiative AP2!) and a solid rite of war. Rowboat Girlyman has some pretty spectacular benefits for your army as well - sure he's not that amazing in a primarch versus primarch fight, but you don't want him there anyway. Potentially giving half your army Interceptor versus a reserves-heavy enemy is brutal, but sitting a scoring Land Raider Achilles in cover and laughing at any attempt to remove it is also an option.

Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:
You have to take the legion as an overall package. The Ultramarines don't get great legion rules, but they have amazing units, great unique wargear (at-initiative AP2!) and a solid rite of war. Rowboat Girlyman has some pretty spectacular benefits for your army as well - sure he's not that amazing in a primarch versus primarch fight, but you don't want him there anyway. Potentially giving half your army Interceptor versus a reserves-heavy enemy is brutal, but sitting a scoring Land Raider Achilles in cover and laughing at any attempt to remove it is also an option.

Oh as I say above, the rite of war is great as are the unique units. But, so do a lot of other legions and yet they get significantly better legion rules with no downsides.

I can only hope that they'll update them when they get to the Shadow Crusade/Underworld War like they did with World Eaters. Coz atm they're almost unusable with that armywide pinning and free victory points rule.

What I had really hoped for was something which incentivised me to take more infantry and not be beholden to taking as many anti tank weapons and tanks as possible. Something like Imperial Fists for example.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You mean the lord of war that only costs as much as two 20 man blobs and can kill one a turn with impunity from across the map?

Maybe if you're playing against stupid people who don't know that maximum coherency distance is 2". Against better players your Fellblade is certainly not killing 20-man infantry squads every turn, especially if they're getting cover saves.

In the real world, re-rolls of a one, especially your second dice roll.

As I've already explained to you it doesn't matter which die gets a re-roll or bonus. If you believe otherwise you don't understand how the math works.

Plus, I keep saying 150pts with the assumption you would actually take a ten man squad and not a twenty man blob.

And the point is that it doesn't matter. You're already taking that 10-man or 20-man squad regardless of which legion you're playing, it isn't a special Ultramarines-only tax. You don't have to build your army around the Ultramarines bonus, its benefit is a natural and inevitable consequence of the fact that you're almost always concentrating fire from multiple units into a single target. The only way you wouldn't get it would be if MSU armies were common and focused fire from two squads would be overkill, but that's not the case in 30k.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You mean the lord of war that only costs as much as two 20 man blobs and can kill one a turn with impunity from across the map?

Maybe if you're playing against stupid people who don't know that maximum coherency distance is 2". Against better players your Fellblade is certainly not killing 20-man infantry squads every turn, especially if they're getting cover saves.

In the real world, re-rolls of a one, especially your second dice roll.

As I've already explained to you it doesn't matter which die gets a re-roll or bonus. If you believe otherwise you don't understand how the math works.

Plus, I keep saying 150pts with the assumption you would actually take a ten man squad and not a twenty man blob.

And the point is that it doesn't matter. You're already taking that 10-man or 20-man squad regardless of which legion you're playing, it isn't a special Ultramarines-only tax. You don't have to build your army around the Ultramarines bonus, its benefit is a natural and inevitable consequence of the fact that you're almost always concentrating fire from multiple units into a single target. The only way you wouldn't get it would be if MSU armies were common and focused fire from two squads would be overkill, but that's not the case in 30k.

You mean gamey people who spend two hours moving their army? I don't get why you're trying to defend infantry armies. They are utter rubbish and pathetically inferior to the tanks and lords of war choices available. I saw one Iron Warriors player lose all of his iron havocs in two tunrs even though they were in cover because a warhound titan just hosed them down. Plus you obviously play on tiny boards and cram as much cover as you can onto the board. I'd like to see you get 100 models into cover or get 2'' coherency. Or try fitting a twenty man blob into a crater.

So you're not even going to discuss the armywide pinning and free VP? You're just going to keep going on and on about this re-roll one thing that I honestly think I'll forget because its so terrible. Really made a mistake collecting an army without the rules. Should have got Raven Guard or Imperial Fists.

Plus you haven't even made a single comparison to the other legions. Which are almost all vastly better with few actual drawbacks.

Ultra rules are quite bloody good, sure we get cc buffs but who cares if I never get there.

Rr wounds with multiple units is bloody amazing, take 3 quad heavy bolters, Rr hit and wound, that's nasty as hell, bolter a termy squad then hit them with plasma cannons, ensuring every hit wounds, plain evil

Charge a tac squad in, lock enemy, charge your termie squad in and Rr those 1s to wound, excellent.

The ability to ensure that every hit actually wounds is very very good, tac and heavy/special weapon teams combined arms feels very ultramarine, the trait is good and nowhere near the worst.

Its re roll ones in shooting only. Not close combat.

Plus its only re rolls to wound. Not a re roll of 1 to hit AND to wound ie preferred enemy.

You get to Rr wound against already engaged unit don't you?

And I never said anything about Rr 1 to hit, just Rr wounds on already shot unit.

 Formosa wrote:
You get to Rr wound against already engaged unit don't you?

And I never said anything about Rr 1 to hit, just Rr wounds on already shot unit.

No its re roll the charge distance if you're joining a friendly unit locked in assault.

I misread that then, Rr charge distance is also pretty good, very few units get that.

 Formosa wrote:
I misread that then, Rr charge distance is also pretty good, very few units get that.

Only if one of your units is already locked in combat. Quite circumstantial.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You mean gamey people who spend two hours moving their army?

I see, so unless you use stupid tactics and set yourself up to lose you're a "gamey person"? Spacing out your models to reduce the impact of blast and template weapons is just basic knowledge of how to play the game. If you're losing whole units because you refuse to do it then you have only yourself to blame.

I don't get why you're trying to defend infantry armies.

I'm not. I'm just pointing out that your assumptions about the effectiveness of anti-infantry options are badly flawed.

They are utter rubbish and pathetically inferior to the tanks and lords of war choices available.

And then the metagame cycles, people drop anti-infantry weapons from their armies to take more anti-tank, and no longer have the ability to kill large blobs of infantry. If tanks are all that matter then why are you wasting your points on a Fellblade (a truly awful anti-tank unit with a primary role of killing MEQs) instead of a better anti-tank LoW?

Plus you obviously play on tiny boards and cram as much cover as you can onto the board. I'd like to see you get 100 models into cover or get 2'' coherency. Or try fitting a twenty man blob into a crater.

If you're so desperate for cover that a crater is your best option then your table doesn't have enough terrain. And if you don't have enough room for 100 models at 2" coherency then your table is way too small. Perhaps the problem here is that you're trying to cram too many points onto a small table and turning the game into a shooting match between LoW?

You're just going to keep going on and on about this re-roll one thing that I honestly think I'll forget because its so terrible.

And this is my point: you keep saying "blah blah blah terrible re-roll" and ignoring the math that demonstrates that it's actually a pretty good bonus. A 16% increase in firepower for doing something you're already doing is not a trivial bonus.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I misread that then, Rr charge distance is also pretty good, very few units get that.

Only if one of your units is already locked in combat. Quite circumstantial.

circumstantial that happens every game if you want it to, also a solid thing to build an assault army around, yeah pretty circumstantial.

I think rerolling 1s for overwatch could be pretty good though. Its the same as bs2 I think ?

I read this thread, and all I can think is:
"It could be worse, you could be playing Emperor's Children."



Guess which legion I play?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I read this thread, and all I can think is:
"It could be worse, you could be playing Emperor's Children."



Guess which legion I play?

Is it Alpha Legion?

What do the Emperor's Children get? Now I'm worried...

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I read this thread, and all I can think is:
"It could be worse, you could be playing Emperor's Children."



Guess which legion I play?

Is it Alpha Legion?

What do the Emperor's Children get? Now I'm worried...

Charnabal sabres

 Vash108 wrote:

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I read this thread, and all I can think is:
"It could be worse, you could be playing Emperor's Children."



Guess which legion I play?

Is it Alpha Legion?

What do the Emperor's Children get? Now I'm worried...

Charnabal sabres

Really? Well, looks like someone is going Alpha Legion!

I'm extremely curious to see what Blood Angels get as far as 30k / Horus Heresy rules and what-not. I actually want to re-start my Blood Angels as a 30k friendly force that I can also use as my 40k force as well eventually, depending on units and rules, etc.

Also, I very much want to see Forge World's take on a Sanguinius Sculpt. Almost all of the Loyalist Primarch sculpts have been downright jawdropping (and many of the Traitor Primarchs are also incredible to behold as well).

Here's hoping we see something in the near future.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I agree on the sculpts, imagine how glorious it will look with all 20 sitting in a display Cabinet....

We play games on 8 by 4 boards. That's not small. Such board sizes favour the use of artillery and lords of war over regular at guns.

There is a lot of cover and the people who run the club are very particular about following FW practices on this. However a few craters only provide 5 plus cover and line of sight blockers can be circumvented.

I bought the Fellblade because it's a cool model. Also because the baneblade I was using had performed so well in its function.

You seem to be assuming that tactical squads are priced appropriately compared to some of the lords of war. They only work if given a strong legion buff like Iron Hands, Night Lords or Imperial Fists. Because I have 60 of these guys I was hoping the ultra legion rules would follow a similar path. But as you yourself are saying the ultra rules heavily favor special weapon squads. Personally I don't see the logic of special weapon squads as they have a very high cost per model but are very easy to kill; unlike the new ultra terminators for example. Also on big boards they are very difficult to survive getting into range and lack easy access to drop pods. So as I said HH favours the use of all tank armies and lords of war.

It's not a question of stupidity, it's a question of practicality. If I saw a player spreading his models out obscenely then you would have to start measuring the gap between every model and make sure they didn't just pile their units in during close combat if it's trailing two foot back. This would over complicate the games, which are largely casual anyway an take several hours to finish anyway. It also provide a very minor bonus with partial hits anyway.

If you hit less often then your benefit from re rolling ones to wound won't be a flat 16 percent buff. Plus you have to still actually succeed in making the re roll to wound. A flat buff on the first roll that you get automatically is just better. What you have done is get one dice roll divided by 6 to get 16 percent that isn't accounting for all the factors as it's only the chance of a re roll not a successful extra wound. With a bolter you only have an 8 percent chance of wounding and you only had a 2 in 3 chance o hitting him in the first place. So really this re roll only creates a 5 percent increase in effectiveness.


Also you re still refusing to make an actual comparison to the other space marine legions. You can't judge if the Ultea rules are good in a vacuum. Most of them are significantly better in their core legion rules than the ultra. You have also completely th armywide pinning check. Night Lords, as a comparison I mentioned earlier, get bonus to wound when outnumbering and a cover save on the first turn and night vision to compensate for their armywide morale check if the warlor dies. Even then Night Lords are very exceptional in having such a severe penalty and some of the others just get outright broken bonuses for no downside.

That's because of fluff, ultras fit their fluff, so do night lords etc. Not all legions are equal, it's up to you to play to your legions strengths, and ultras are combined arms and Counter punch force, they have some good gear and good unique units, they are solid on the leadership front too and you could possibly give up a vp for losing a vp, so what, I give up slay the warlord every game as a world eaters player.

You sound like a competitive player and 30k is thankfully few of these kind of players players, try thinking of the fluff and play the campaigns And don't take the game so seriously, 30k is fun and fluffy.