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 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Making them bigger pansies somehow makes the fluff better?

There is literally nothing about the 7th ed fluff which is cooler than the 5th ed background, lol.

If the 7th ed had given us an alternate explanation for how eldar are indoctrinated (and later promoted) in the Incubi ranks, then we might-could consider it a retcon. But that didn't happen. They just copy-pasted like they always do, and omitted a bunch of stuff (like they started doing fairly recently) in order to have more room for miniature photographs.

I did have a thought though: maybe they ARE regenerated. Clearly, Archons still get killed, yeah? Even when they're protected by Incubi? Maybe the Shrine still pays to have Incubi who've lost internal duels (to subordinates or to prospective Incubi) resurrected, but once they're back alive, those 'failed' Incubi are given the most dangerous (suicidal) assignments, or are the warriors assigned to clients that the Shrine isn't going to be broken up about losing to assassination or combat death.

That would make sense, fluff-wise, and still fit with the theme and tone of the Dark Eldar.

Yeah, except that a shrine would not want to lose any client. Not only would they miss the income from that job, it would also be bad advertisement for possible future contracts.

Unless everyone knew exactly why Archon Fumbleface died. (His Incubi died with him, probably, which is how they save face.). And in the world of Commorragh, do you really think the shrine doesn't get paid up front?

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Making them bigger pansies somehow makes the fluff better?

There is literally nothing about the 7th ed fluff which is cooler than the 5th ed background, lol.

If the 7th ed had given us an alternate explanation for how eldar are indoctrinated (and later promoted) in the Incubi ranks, then we might-could consider it a retcon. But that didn't happen. They just copy-pasted like they always do, and omitted a bunch of stuff (like they started doing fairly recently) in order to have more room for miniature photographs.

I did have a thought though: maybe they ARE regenerated. Clearly, Archons still get killed, yeah? Even when they're protected by Incubi? Maybe the Shrine still pays to have Incubi who've lost internal duels (to subordinates or to prospective Incubi) resurrected, but once they're back alive, those 'failed' Incubi are given the most dangerous (suicidal) assignments, or are the warriors assigned to clients that the Shrine isn't going to be broken up about losing to assassination or combat death.

That would make sense, fluff-wise, and still fit with the theme and tone of the Dark Eldar.

Yeah, except that a shrine would not want to lose any client. Not only would they miss the income from that job, it would also be bad advertisement for possible future contracts.

Unless everyone knew exactly why Archon Fumbleface died. (His Incubi died with him, probably, which is how they save face.). And in the world of Commorragh, do you really think the shrine doesn't get paid up front?

I think it is more like a monthly fee or anything. Mercenaries usually require regular payments after all.

I just don't think taking them from "we're such hardcore killers we only admit people who can prove they're just as hardcore by killing one of us" to "if any of us die, we just pay a little money and come back." They are supposed to be the most hardcore warriors in Commorragh, and that would just make them basically Trueborn with big swords.

Another possibility occurs: the notion of the death duel thing might be like the idea of samurai killing themselves after a defeat. It probably happens/happened sometimes, but it obviously didn't literally happen every time. I could see an apprentice defeating an Incubus in a duel by reaching a point where he could kill the more experienced warrior. The older warrior chooses whether to yield or die. Then, surrendering his armor, the older Incubus wanders into Commorragh. Some of them might go off to become Corsairs, or defect to the Craftworlds, but most will probably just craft a new warsuit, and join a different shrine, possibly under a different name.

That seems like it could work.

Personally I'm in favour of the 'fight to the death then resurrect' theory. Perhaps a special deal with certain haemonculi for special cases of interest?

Ok, let's say 100% of the Incubi killed promoting an aspirant gets resurrected, now comes the next problem -- what about their armor? Surely they don't just walk on the street and find a wargear workshop and buy a suit of armor not even the richest and most powerful archon can buy? If the shrine provides the losers with spare suits of 3+ armor, how do they keep the spare suits from onlookers like the Kabalites?

@Icmiracle

When it comes to equipment, you have to make distinction between game stats (which needs a minimum of balance and restriction) and fluff. Incubis armor are very heavy compared to all other dark eldar armors which are very light. It offers more protection than other armors, but you need to learn ho to fight in a heavier suit of armor and Archons might not like to be weigth down and ghost plate offers similar protection thanks to it's power shield.

The fact that weapons and armor can be exclusive to a cast of warriors might have to do with pact they made with various artisans if they don' build them themselves (which would be the case if they are like Aspect Warrior whose armor are made by their Exarch).

 lcmiracle wrote:
Ok, let's say 100% of the Incubi killed promoting an aspirant gets resurrected, now comes the next problem -- what about their armor? Surely they don't just walk on the street and find a wargear workshop and buy a suit of armor not even the richest and most powerful archon can buy? If the shrine provides the losers with spare suits of 3+ armor, how do they keep the spare suits from onlookers like the Kabalites?

There is no shortage of armor. DE can manufacture whatever they like. Why they dont all run around with 2+ saves(drazhar's armor) or ghost place is anyones guess but it probably comes down to style. DE want to revel in the battle, they want to be unencumbered and feel the pain. Wyches are use to fighting in pits with tridents etc and not really needing armor. Perhaps being that light is how they get their 4++ dodge.

Incubi use to lack fleet, back when fleet was actually something you really wanted. The side effect of having 3+ armor, showing that this was a choice.

Incubus Armour is special and requires a full Craftworld Eldar Spirit Stone to produce each suit. While the Incubi shrines are capable of making new Warsuits, each one is a piece of art, not like the mass produced standard DEldar armour.

In effect, the Warsuit is the Dark Eldar equivalent of Imperial Artificer Armour.

Drazhar is his armour, its irreplicable.

 Exergy wrote:

There is no shortage of armor. DE can manufacture whatever they like. Why they dont all run around with 2+ saves(drazhar's armor) or ghost place is anyones guess but it probably comes down to style. DE want to revel in the battle, they want to be unencumbered and feel the pain. Wyches are use to fighting in pits with tridents etc and not really needing armor. Perhaps being that light is how they get their 4++ dodge.

Incubi use to lack fleet, back when fleet was actually something you really wanted. The side effect of having 3+ armor, showing that this was a choice.

Well it ain't any more. And also it doesn't show that it was a choice -- let's say you are a Kabalite Warrior -- some random dude who just want to survive in Commorragh, ladder climbers who if is ever killed, he's dead, he ain't got resurrection on him because he's a poor bastard. And now on the top of the social ladder they just forget about getting better personal protection. That doesn't make sense, if it were a choice, for no one Archon to has access to an Incubi Armor, .

Furthermore, I have two problems with this solution: first being Lexicanum says otherwise "Another aspect of Incubi equipment that is fairly unique is their use of power armour like the Incubus Warsuit. This warsuit is used only by Incubi and not even Archons have access to this kind of armoury." Which if is to be believed, indicates that the Incubus Shrines somehow, despite being independent organizations, collectively control the monopoly of either producing or at least maintaining Incubus Warsuits.

Now to be fair, that article is no cited, so here's the second issue I have: Incubi, AFAIK, has Fleet since at least 5E, which is why I think Lexicanum says: "The warsuit is as tough as power armour and so perfectly designed it barely inhibits dexterity at all." So as of 5E (the previous being 3rd Edition, which is a re-release of 2nd Edition -- in 40K for me, it belongs to a distant memoriy, one which I haven't the time nor will to check), Incubus Warsuit has an approximately equal flexibility to anything any other DE warriors wear. So if were a choice, it would have been a very easy choice. Unlike the Wyches and Succubus, who deliberately wear exposed armors due to ritual/stylistic choice, Kabalites are just DE thugs, they can wear whatever armor they want and can get access to. The fact that no Archon can have an Incubi Warsuit either means Incubus Warsuits are exclusive products of the Shrines, or that its number is fixed and only Incubus Shrines have access to them.

So the Incubus Shrine can produce Incubi Warsuit and resurrect Incubus died in the promotion duel and provide the resurrected with additional gear? Sure, that makes sense. What makes no sense is the defeat is then rendered naked until defeating another Incubus -- that'd still keep number down. Let's not forget, as rare as it may be, not all DE who has a pact to be resurrected can be resurrect -- sometimes things happens -- Mandrakes drag those bodies away and did Khaine knows what to them or a warp rift happened and everybody in it just disappeared, etc. That's still a stupid procedure for any mercenary cult, or any organisation for that matter.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Incubus Armour is special and requires a full Craftworld Eldar Spirit Stone to produce each suit. While the Incubi shrines are capable of making new Warsuits, each one is a piece of art, not like the mass produced standard DEldar armour.

In effect, the Warsuit is the Dark Eldar equivalent of Imperial Artificer Armour.

Drazhar is his armour, its irreplicable.

I want to believe the point of having an Aspirant killing an Aspect Warrior is to not only acquire a Tormentor but also to acquire their Aspect Warrior armor. But existing fluff from 5th Edition just doesn't support this. To acquire a 3+ armor save armor and Aspirant would have to exclude Howling Banshee and Dire Avengers from their hit list. Anyways, where is the Spirit Stone made Warsuit bit from? I'm curious.

Incubi lacked Fleet in the 3rd edition codex, because in 3rd edition they invented Fleet (of Foot) specifically to represent the fact Eldar had, until that point, moved an inch further (two when running) than most races. At the time, there was a rule in place (bearing in mind that the rule only appeared in the Eldar codices) that any model with a 3+ armour save (so Reapers, Scorpions and Incubi) couldn't use Fleet of Foot.

 Ashiraya wrote:
And then got hypno-indoctrinated into superhuman intellect and great knowledge, yes.

Are you sure? I have never seen marines acting like they got superhuman intellect or great knowledge, honestly.

So, Dark Eldars have trouble manufacturing something even the Imperium has mastered mass production? Seems weird to me. Only make sense if the Incubi armor is really, really much better at allowing fast movement than Astartes power armor…

Its less that the technology isn't available, and more that the warsuits are a religious thing.

That said, the Imperium has to outfit what, maybe six million individuals with power armour in the entire galaxy, while having a resource base of perhaps four million forge worlds to produce it?

Commoragh has a single city worth of resources and upwards of ten million soldiers to equip - and thats only counting Trueborn.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Commoragh has a single city worth of resources and upwards of ten million soldiers to equip - and thats only counting Trueborn.

It's been described on these boards. Commoragh is incredibly vast, perhaps comparable to all the worlds in a sector combined, perhaps larger.

I was going to type something, but by the time I get down to the end of the forum I have seemingly forgotten what the post topic is about! Seriously though, the reason I for one perceive Space Marines as boring is due to most battles that are told in stories are of them winning and therefore it is hard to feel at risk in most situations while reading about them.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
And then got hypno-indoctrinated into superhuman intellect and great knowledge, yes.

Are you sure? I have never seen marines acting like they got superhuman intellect or great knowledge, honestly.

So, Dark Eldars have trouble manufacturing something even the Imperium has mastered mass production? Seems weird to me. Only make sense if the Incubi armor is really, really much better at allowing fast movement than Astartes power armor…

Their neurons literally fire faster than is humanly possible, their entire nervous system must get an upgrade somewhere, maybe some nerve cluster like a Stegosaurus to "boost" the nerve signal. They also can run high math equations in their head on the fly coupled with their eidetic memories. There's also chapters like the Blood Angels who are all artisans and produce work that puts some of the greatest Italian artists to shame. Plus the lot of all Space Marines are master swordsmen who would put any modern fencing master to utter shame. They make bionic limbs as well, items of such quality they perfectly replicate the limb that was lost and put modern engineers to shame. Their Apothecaries are also highly knowledgeable of medical sciences.

But it depends on what you qualify as "intelligence". You aren't ever going to find a space marine gifted in astrophysics drafting his own theories of relativity. But you will find craftsmen, doctors, and engineers by the dozen.

EDIT

However this also raises the question of how they learn such skills. For all we know their learning abilities are utter gak, and their knowledge is instead burned into their brain along with the hypnotic training.

Exergy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Commoragh has a single city worth of resources and upwards of ten million soldiers to equip - and thats only counting Trueborn.

It's been described on these boards. Commoragh is incredibly vast, perhaps comparable to all the worlds in a sector combined, perhaps larger.

Does not change the fact that it is a city built in an artificial pocket dimension - an environment that is not known for vast mineral deposits from which might be mined the raw materials to mass produce heavy armour.

Eldar don't mine their armor, they grow it.

DEldar don't really use Wraithbone.

 Ashiraya wrote:
DEldar don't really use Wraithbone.

Their armor still does not appear to be made of any naturally occurring materials.

when you find something in 40k that looks unsustainable then odds are it's likely just that. The world of 40k is unsustainable. It's a setting that is circling the drain

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
DEldar don't really use Wraithbone.

Their armor still does not appear to be made of any naturally occurring materials.

Sure it does. Looks like ceramic or cast metal from here.

Unless they're 3D Printing it, there's no way it's either cast metal or ceramic. Their helmets appear to be made from a single "panel", which is downright impossible when it comes to something this complex. The concave cheeks, the ridges in the face, etc.

Also checking the wiki, their armor is held in place by barbs while the underlying suit is similar to the Nanosuit of Crysis, hardening to receive incoming munitions and glance them off.

Incubi warsuits, just like all other dark eldar armors aren't made of wraithbone because you nned specilised psykers to mold it and grow it (bonesingers). Dark eldars are forbidden to use any psychic powers. They must use a none psychic material that wouldn't be used on any Craftworld. Like all armors in 40K, its probably from a fictionnal alloy that makes our best alloy look like carton and made using technics that we would think impossible. 40K is a science-fantasy after all.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Eldar don't mine their armor, they grow it.

in the 5th edition codex it mentions that DE technology is as advanced as CWE tech but that it is manufactured, not grown.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
DEldar don't really use Wraithbone.

Their armor still does not appear to be made of any naturally occurring materials.

steel is not a naturally occuring material
carbon fiber is not a naturally occuring material
plastic is not a naturally occuring material

all of them are manufactured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Unless they're 3D Printing it, there's no way it's either cast metal or ceramic. Their helmets appear to be made from a single "panel", which is downright impossible when it comes to something this complex. The concave cheeks, the ridges in the face, etc.

You can do a lot with milling, stamping and extruding

 Wyzilla wrote:

Also checking the wiki, their armor is held in place by barbs while the underlying suit is similar to the Nanosuit of Crysis, hardening to receive incoming munitions and glance them off.

So it's a functionally graded, reactive composite. Stuff we can make now.

Furyou Miko wrote:

Exergy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Commoragh has a single city worth of resources and upwards of ten million soldiers to equip - and thats only counting Trueborn.

It's been described on these boards. Commoragh is incredibly vast, perhaps comparable to all the worlds in a sector combined, perhaps larger.

Does not change the fact that it is a city built in an artificial pocket dimension - an environment that is not known for vast mineral deposits from which might be mined the raw materials to mass produce heavy armour.

Why do you think the Dark Eldar are so fond of raiding? Their raids are necessary to gather slaves and resources to keep Commorragh running.

Wyzilla wrote:Eldar don't mine their armor, they grow it.

Trying to grow wraithbone would probably be one of the fastest ways to get yourself killed in Commorragh, and might doom the entire dimension too. Psychic powers were outlawed for a reason.
That said, Dark Eldar no longer have psychic powers, so they probably couldn't even grow wraithbone if they wanted to.

Also, I don't think Dark Eldar simply mine for their resources. Their technology is incredibly advanced, even more so than that of the Craftworld Eldar. These are guys who weaponise dark matter and extinguish suns just for giggles and kidnap them to power their alternate dimension.

One of the Eldar source books mentions that raw resources are gathered in the Webway. One presumes not many, though.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Their neurons literally fire faster than is humanly possible

I literally have no idea what this means.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They also can run high math equations in their head on the fly

Where the hell have you read any story about a marine solving math equations?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Plus the lot of all Space Marines are master swordsmen who would put any modern fencing master to utter shame.

Meh. They are WS4. So are Crusaders. DCA are WS5. Ork boyz are WS4.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They make bionic limbs as well, items of such quality they perfectly replicate the limb that was lost and put modern engineers to shame.

Their Apothecaries are also highly knowledgeable of medical sciences.

Have you missed the memo about 40k “science”? They are just following the ritual. No intelligence, no judgment involved. They are exactly like this :

Apothecaries are just the marine version of ork Mad Doks, except that unlike the orks, they are unable to innovate at all.

 Wyzilla wrote:
But you will find craftsmen, doctors, and engineers by the dozen.

Like Orks.

 Wyzilla wrote:
For all we know their learning abilities are utter gak, and their knowledge is instead burned into their brain along with the hypnotic training.

Exactly like orks, except for Orks it happens automatically when they mature from their spores, and that Orks are able to innovate.

So conclusion, Space Marines seems literally like orks in regard to intelligence, albeit more limited.

Marines are only smarter than humans by inference and deduction - its not actually stated in the fluff.

That said, the 'high-speed maths' Wyzilla mentioned probably refers to the handful of times in novels Marines have hyjacked large artillery weapons and fired them 'from the hip' so to speak, with a hit as the result - setting an artillery gun against a target does require maths due to the ballistic arc of the shells.

I am quite unconvinced…

I am, that kind of maths is well within the realm of a well-trained human.