Switch Theme:

Robotech® RPG Tactics™-License lost, the end is near!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Forar wrote:
Basically it's the X-Wing/TIE Fighter standard; the 'good guys' have surprisingly tough units versus a swarm of imperial/zerg/zentraedi/whatever individually weaker units, but a lot of the series focused on the 'teeny tiny not really supposed to be front line battle gear' units so they shone and have importance beyond their role/size.

Even more reasons to do a "zoomed-in" game for that ones alone, IMHO.
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

 Albertorius wrote:
That's another thing: IIRC, a cyclone bike had a laser gun and a couple of disposable mini missiles, didn't they? Whereas each Regult battle pod has half a dozen laser guns, each as big as the whole cyclone... I don't think 2 stands should have a bit less firepower than 6 battlepods: I think 1 stand might have as much firepower as a single battlepod, tops.


That's technology for ya; often getting better and smaller at the same time (at least until we all decide we want half a laptop screen on our phones).

If there was a 4th part of the Robotech saga they'd probably need to be piloted by children and have 10,000 MDC and hit hard enough to crack moons in half.

... which is basically Dragonball Z. And I should probably stop giving them ideas.

 Albertorius wrote:
 Forar wrote:
Basically it's the X-Wing/TIE Fighter standard; the 'good guys' have surprisingly tough units versus a swarm of imperial/zerg/zentraedi/whatever individually weaker units, but a lot of the series focused on the 'teeny tiny not really supposed to be front line battle gear' units so they shone and have importance beyond their role/size.

Even more reasons to do a "zoomed-in" game for that ones alone, IMHO.


Oh, I'm a fan of there being a skirmish game with a variety of Invid opponents and Cyclones at a larger scale, but as part of RRT I can see why having massive Alphas and Betas is an issue.

Which brings us full circle to the elegance of Warboss' sliding scale for the table top.

PB is years away from later series, even if they remain profitable, I have to imagine they're a decade away from such a thing, and then it becomes a question/race between whether or not they can even justify staying with minis in the first place.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The Cyclones are so small that a single shot from most weapons is huge compared to their body size so to help make up the difference I also made it so that cyclones and normal infantry cannot Roll with Impact. The problem is controlling the power creep from the RPG which these will be based on and have good justification. They did reduce the MDC on the Monster so there is some precedent.

Keep in mind that most of the firepower comes from the arm missiles. If you look at the Rand Type Cyclone each one does like 1 or 2 points and has a really short range. I hope that will balance things out. One Regult Squad should be about the same cost as a Cyclone Squadron. If they got in close it should be a good fight. At long range the Pods could snipe the Cyclones to death pretty easily. Up close the tables could turn.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The idea is that if you get a hit on a cyclone it's much more likely to go pop, but you need to hit first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 14:00:07


Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Mike1975 wrote:
The Cyclones are so small that a single shot from most weapons is huge compared to their body size so to help make up the difference I also made it so that cyclones and normal infantry cannot Roll with Impact.

Actually, I'd say that's even more reason to roll them in into a full unit statline instead of tracking each one separately. And actually, I'd say they have more reasons to be able to roll with the impact, not less (being so tiny it will be a bitch to actually hit them, they are very mobile, they can take cover in anything, the moment you actually shoot them they're in another place... they write themselves).

The problem is controlling the power creep from the RPG which these will be based on and have good justification. They did reduce the MDC on the Monster so there is some precedent.

The problem is looking at the RPG at all. Stop doing that.

Keep in mind that most of the firepower comes from the arm missiles. If you look at the Rand Type Cyclone each one does like 1 or 2 points and has a really short range. I hope that will balance things out. One Regult Squad should be about the same cost as a Cyclone Squadron. If they got in close it should be a good fight. At long range the Pods could snipe the Cyclones to death pretty easily. Up close the tables could turn.

Gonig by logic, arm missiles should be 1) mini missiles at best and 2) one-shot. So they probably should be able to shoot them as a one shot version of one of the missile bays from a Spartan destroid, or something like that (or the mini missiles from a FAST pack, for example).

The idea is that if you get a hit on a cyclone it's much more likely to go pop, but you need to hit first.

But that's not what the units as they are in your rules are. Yo've stated them, each one, as units tougher than Regults (and you have 4 per base, so they take as much space as one and are waaay easier to hide) that get free dodges.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm forced to use the RPG, that is the basis for all the stats and the license. So I can tweak, if I can justify it.

Again, I have cyclone and doing one per stand takes a lot of space on the table. At the very least I'd say two per stand.

The arms each had 2 missiles. They were only mini-missiles so they only do 2 points each. At most that is 4 points from a single Cyclone and then they have to use something else. The Saber Cyclones with the chest missiles are the main firepower. Cyclones need to hope to shoot out the eye on any Invid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have statted them out like the cartoon....I can't justify dropping the MDC more than maybe one more point from the RPG. I have to balance all 3; cartoon, RPG, and Minis-Game playability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 14:34:15


Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






Well, as long as those aren't official stats I'd say you could do whatever you want with them. You aren't "forced" to do anything unless you're being paid by Palladium and you stats are meant for the official game.

And you won't need to worry about official stats for at least one more year, so...

As to statting them as the cartoon... no Cyclone interacted with a Regult battlepod (or anything out of Mospeada) in the cartoon that I'm aware of, so I can't see how could you do that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 14:47:29


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

My gut is that at 6mm they should be a single statline with one damage track (not sure of the amount of the MDC though.. definitely not 4.. maybe 2 rpg models worth?) and a couple of command points to simulate the multiple models present but with a special rule that that they can refire any weapon with a command point (is that rapid fire?) and a vulnerability to blast weapons. I do like your idea of not having the dodge cost a command point to simulate the autododge.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 warboss wrote:
My gut is that at 6mm they should be a single statline with one damage track (not sure of the amount of the MDC though.. definitely not 4.. maybe 2 rpg models worth?) and a couple of command points to simulate the multiple models present but with a special rule that that they can refire any weapon with a command point (is that rapid fire?) and a vulnerability to blast weapons. I do like your idea of not having the dodge cost a command point to simulate the autododge.

At the very least it would certainly be easier than needing to track individual minis in a base, that much is for sure.

Anyways! Wave 2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 14:49:13


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The idea is to work with something that PB will use. My First Gen stats were close enough that they thought they had a mole. If we can test these and make sure they work well I have a better chance that PB will accept something we all approve or at least are happy with then letting them struggle through it themselves and crossing my fingers.

Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Mike1975 wrote:
The idea is to work with something that PB will use. My First Gen stats were close enough that they thought they had a mole. If we can test these and make sure they work well I have a better chance that PB will accept something we all approve or at least are happy with then letting them struggle through it themselves and crossing my fingers.

I at least don't know what they will use. I don't believe they are forced by their contract to follow their own RPG stats mindlessly, so I simply don't think they need to do it. They might want to do it because it's easier for them, though.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





When I was poking my head in and they had me as part of a few conference calls....the RPG stats were important. All the mecha MDC except the Monster is identical to the RPG/25 and the weapons do the same as the Max in the RPG/20. That is one of the reasons it was so easy to convert. Since this is under the RPG license it is a requirement to avoid potential legal issues.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Monster also has a very high DF to justify the lower MDC. The higher DF is like a representation of thicker armor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 14:56:30


Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Mike1975 wrote:
When I was poking my head in and they had me as part of a few conference calls....the RPG stats were important. All the mecha MDC except the Monster is identical to the RPG/25 and the weapons do the same as the Max in the RPG/20. That is one of the reasons it was so easy to convert. Since this is under the RPG license it is a requirement to avoid potential legal issues.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Monster also has a very high DF to justify the lower MDC. The higher DF is like a representation of thicker armor.

Have you heard/seen/whatever that as an actual statement of the license, or you're just inferring? Because to me it looks more like a "path of least resistance" case, TBH, rather than contractual enforcement.

And even if it is indeed contractual enforcement... what if they someday want to change the RPG stats, then? Would they be obligated to cross change them for RRT, too? That sounds mind-blowing stupid, even more than usual.

Also, if they've been able to change it for the Monster because reasons, they could do the same for basically anything. They're just choosing not to.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I've not seen actual contracts or anything but from the conference calls that I have been on that was part of the concerns/discussion.

Again changes from RPG conversions are very small....and usually require justification so that if any question comes up it can be explained why the change. The only change was a few SPD stats and the Monster having the MDC reduced but having a high DF.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Considering that the RRT is in fact supposedly an extension of the RPG first and a minis wargame second, it makes sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 15:37:26


Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Albertorius wrote:

Have you heard/seen/whatever that as an actual statement of the license, or you're just inferring? Because to me it looks more like a "path of least resistance" case, TBH, rather than contractual enforcement.


Keep in mind that PB wasn't allowed to do conventional units 'because of the license' up until Simbieda realized that Wave Two wouldn't happen without some Hail Mary Passes.

And now, oops, turns out that they can do them. So they're going to take a cut of someone else doing them.

Their license is so incredibly, awesomely, specific on some things, but "subcontracting another seller" is, apparently, something that Harmony Gold overlooked.

So, what's more believable? The scenario I just gave, or Simbieda lying yet again?
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

For consistency, you would need to look at the mechanic of how each unit was converted to RRT and consistently apply it to the cyclones. I REALLY need to get my RPG books back from my brother to look into this.

If there was any leeway for tweaking I would look at them in a similar way as "proto-mechs" in Battletech and not so much as a troop stat-line.

I must admit my first Robotech anything was a cyclone figure (metal and plastic) a long time ago, it was $20 brand new way back when:
.

<sigh> I did like cyclones and the Alphas, Beta's not so much but when they linked that was a huge ship. Ah well, Palladium: I may still remain stubborn on not going for this.

Wave the heck 2 you! "Nothing to see here" indeed.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Talizvar wrote:
For consistency, you would need to look at the mechanic of how each unit was converted to RRT and consistently apply it to the cyclones. I REALLY need to get my RPG books back from my brother to look into this.

If there was any leeway for tweaking I would look at them in a similar way as "proto-mechs" in Battletech and not so much as a troop stat-line.

I must admit my first Robotech anything was a cyclone figure (metal and plastic) a long time ago, it was $20 brand new way back when:
.

<sigh> I did like cyclones and the Alphas, Beta's not so much but when they linked that was a huge ship. Ah well, Palladium: I may still remain stubborn on not going for this.

Wave the heck 2 you! "Nothing to see here" indeed.


I've had the mechanic written down for a while now. Every unit, MDC, Weapon, etc.

Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

 Albertorius wrote:
what if they someday want to change the RPG stats, then? Would they be obligated to cross change them for RRT, too?


While not technically impossible, the idea of Palladium updating their RPG is almost there. It took them 7 years of not having the license and relaunching the entire brand to tweak some stats to use 98% of the same rules with. I think we're safe from them updating the RPG for many years to come. Their chance to truly update the rules, stats, and look of the RPG has sadly come and gone.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Talizvar wrote:
For consistency, you would need to look at the mechanic of how each unit was converted to RRT and consistently apply it to the cyclones. I REALLY need to get my RPG books back from my brother to look into this.


That's the problem, of course. The RPG books were idiotic on a lot of things, but especially the Cyclones.

A Macross VF had, what, 350 Main Body MDC? A cyclone has, what? 200MDC? 250MDC?

Garbage in, garbage out.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

Merijeek wrote:
 Talizvar wrote:
For consistency, you would need to look at the mechanic of how each unit was converted to RRT and consistently apply it to the cyclones. I REALLY need to get my RPG books back from my brother to look into this.


That's the problem, of course. The RPG books were idiotic on a lot of things, but especially the Cyclones.

A Macross VF had, what, 350 Main Body MDC? A cyclone has, what? 200MDC? 250MDC?

Garbage in, garbage out.


Agreed. For clarity, the current cyclones have roughly 140-250ish depending on the model. The "light" and "saber" series ones are under 150 and fairly reasonable for the RPG (still powerful for their size when you add in the autododge but on the upper edge of reasonable). It's only when you get to the battler version (with the forearm rockets) and the "super" version that they go right past light speed to ludicrous speed. Of course, in the first edition the VF-1 was 250mdc and the cyclone battler was 200 IIRC so they previously went to plaid... improvement, right?!?

Another issue for balance is their firepower. The standard hand weapon of a battler cyclone does 1d6x10 damage per burst attack and has a 4,000ft range whereas the cannon on the alpha that is BIGGER than the whole damn cyclone does exactly the same. Lol... balance!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 17:06:25


We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
Innocent SDF-1 Bridge Bunny






This whole cyclone debate is really about unrealistic expectations due to inflated stats in the RPG.

In many ways I find it hilarious that the decision to make them extremely overpowered is coming home to roost 30 years later.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Oh, absolutely. No doubt about it.

...and all that comes from "having to" base it off the RPG books. Which I find to almost certainly be a load of crap.
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

At 20 points per base, I wonder how the game would handle them 'out-swarming the swarm'. The cheapest RDF squads are 50 points if I'm not mistaken (6 per 100 point game).

Laying down 15 Cyclone teams would be 60 Command points, and have a combined MDC of 360, but their shorter range and reduced killing power could make them a slog.

Basically, what purpose would they play in the game, would they do it well enough to justify all this debate (not to mention swapping scales, sliding or otherwise), and most importantly would they be fun to play/play against?

I suppose they could be objective takers/holders and a nightmare if they had a 'walk through buildings and be protected by them' rules in place (and buildings didn't die if mechs looked at them funny).

Plus I wonder if the Saber Cyclones will get the "parry any (energy?) attack and take zero damage" ability.

I abused the gak out of that in my Rifts campaign.

And I agree that it's just another aspect of fun distractions, but there's only so many times one can ask about Wave Two.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 18:53:42


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

For those casual readers who are wondering what the fuss is about, this pic should illustrate it.



It's kind of like in 40K where you take a single tactical marine and he is tougher, more maneuverable, and has longer ranged weapons than a Reaver titan... oh, wait, yeah, that's not the case there.

I know Zentraedi were not outfitted with the best tech and the cyclone is advanced armor but unless their battle pods were made from the discarded Masters' candy wrappers and the cyclone is from Wolverine's Weapon X nail clippings then we have a bit of a balance and perception issue for a tabletop minis game.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Nice battelpod paint job, though.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Guys, I am soliciting some help. I want some 6mm and 10mm infantry and stuff if you have them in some pics next to some RRT stuff.. Also if you have pics of some of the blobs that are the 3D Printed stuff that you can add that would be great. I think that part of the issue is the misconception of the detail that 6mm infantry can have due to the horrible 3D ones that have been made.

Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in us
Innocent SDF-1 Bridge Bunny






I think you are on to something mike. The low res 3d prints and lack of a paint job are certainly a factor.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Almost certainly.

And?

Want to know about the quality of miniatures that can be produced for human-sized 6mm troops? They're everywhere. No need to find ones that look like armored guys with tires on their backs.

Maybe the people making the decisions could spend a couple minutes actually looking at other companies' products to see what can be done?

Nah. Too much sense in that idea.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

 Mike1975 wrote:
Guys, I am soliciting some help. I want some 6mm and 10mm infantry and stuff if you have them in some pics next to some RRT stuff.. Also if you have pics of some of the blobs that are the 3D Printed stuff that you can add that would be great. I think that part of the issue is the misconception of the detail that 6mm infantry can have due to the horrible 3D ones that have been made.


Is it any worse than the 3d printed Spartan? Put the 3d prints next to the original spartan-gate model and problem solved as they will both look bad

Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

 paulson games wrote:
Is it any worse than the 3d printed Spartan? Put the 3d prints next to the original spartan-gate model and problem solved as they will both look bad
Well if you are going to be snarky about it, you should sculpt something and show them how it's done! Oh yeah, you had done that...

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

I have my own cyclones and invid Not going to post them though as they might be confused with Palladiums stuff again, my macross sculpts that Maz painted still keep popping up in RRT threads as an example of RRT minis lol. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up for Mospeada,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 20:27:30


Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
 
Forum Index » Other Sci-Fi Miniatures Games
Go to: