Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

^^^ exactly

 Mike1975 wrote:
^^^ exactly

That I am an idiot??
Liking RRT just that little bit better.
Thanks Mike.

Now we need some wave 2 happening...

 Talizvar wrote:
Okay... glad we had this discussion.
So a battleoid form Veritech has flight.
Am I the only idiot here? (correction, others admit missing as well... still in shock)
Now it can do all the things in the shows.
I am a wee bit upset not seeing this earlier.
Now going back and reading cards a little more critically.

I missed that as well. My battloids twice entered terrain and spent 2x their movement to get a crappy shot in my game last weekend. There was an obvious progression on the other stats from just walking to hover to aircraft which might grant flight as well (gotta double check that). I just didn't notice the general flight trait for all three.

Real simple. Hands and what they do are straight forward. If you don't read and understand what Hover is then you never realize that with just Hands and Hover then you never get that WTH moment where you realize the guardian mode should have something else. Much of the problem comes from people assuming they know what Hover is. Hover was really badly named. It just means the unit is quick and hard to hit. Nothing more.

yeah my point other then the destroids what the hell good is terrain for ?

 Forar wrote:
That seems like a spurious statement. Surely there are ground or sea based miniatures games that don't worry about height/elevation.

RRT even says it ignores elevation on page 10 of the rule book.

Apologies for the pedantry, but stating it definitively like that is just begging to either fail immediately or be 'no true Scotsman'd'. (as in, "oh, X isn't a real mini's game")

Three dimensional models are by their very nature three dimensional. But feel free to actually prove me wrong, show me a miniatures game that doesn't consider three dimensions.

RRT tells us to ignore vertical distance and then procedes to give us rules regarding vertical distance. Can't have it both ways and it is riduculous to tell everyone to play on flat, empty planes. It ignores the fundamental nature of playing in a three dimensional environment.

Asterios wrote:
yeah my point other then the destroids what the hell good is terrain for ?

To block line of sight until you get there?
Not that one squad of pods could not blow it all away in one turn.
Had a couple moments of getting cover behind a building, getting it shot-up, then getting unloaded on.
Secondary reason: to look pretty?
Third use: for some units to fall off of after it is shot out from under them?
Yep, tapped out here.

Plus destroids, Zen Infantry, and more don't ignore terrain. Pods only ignore terrain during their Leap. You last example remember? It shows that Pods need to spend a bit choosing when to jump. Just because some units can fly over terrain is no reason to freak out....again.

Then you'll have foot infantry and Bioroids and much more that will have to deal with terrain. Southern Cross Battloids. Masters Terminator Infantry.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's pretend I have 3 units next to some "Rough" terrain. Let's say the terrain is about 8 inches across and it is some heavy woods. They all need to get past it and use it to advance and for cover bonuses.

One is a Tomahawk without any movement modifiers/modes. Another is a Battleod with a Leap of 5. The last is a Male Power Armor or Veritech with a Move of 5 and Flight.

The Tomahawk has no way to mitigate the terrain and will move at half speed only moving 2.5 inches a turn and take 3 turns to pass through the woods. Ouch

The Pod can leap 5 inches into the woods and then move another 2.5 inches with his 5 inches of normal movement. In one turn he will be to the edge of the woods, have cover, and then next turn will need to decide to stay or move.

The Veritech or Male Power Armor can move a full 5 inches due to flight but then is in the middle and next turn he can move to the edge and stay in the woods or, in the case of the veritech, transform. Point is, they will be more than halfway through but not all the way like the Pod. They can fly but not very fast.

So does terrain make a difference here? You decide.

What does shoot some things in the foot are buildings and how easy they made them to blow up. They need to be 4x as strong or have rules aginst the UEDF wantonly destroying buildings.

Now as far as measuring range. I'm on the fence because mini to mini makes more sense and I pointed that out ages ago. The reason I think it was done the way it was, or at least the way I understand it, is that if you have a bunch of pods together, and unit love to stay in Close Formation, and you want to measure from one pod to a target, often terrain like tress and lampposts can be on the table and get knocked down if you are not careful. Measuring vertically, while less intuitive and realistic, removes the problem of knocking things over as you measure range. Personally I prefer to take the chance of knocking things over, and have many times when I play.

 n815e wrote:
Three dimensional models are by their very nature three dimensional.

But feel free to actually prove me wrong, show me a miniatures game that doesn't consider three dimensions.

If you want to go down that rabbit hole, boardgame pieces aren't 2 dimensional either. Even thin paper bits exist in all three dimensions.

But surely we've all realized by now that definitively stating things as absolutes is a futile endeavor. Regarding actual height/elevation, you mean to tell me you don't think there's a single miniatures game out there that ignores unit height/elevation? Because I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one.

RRT tells us to ignore vertical distance and then procedes to give us rules regarding vertical distance. Can't have it both ways and it is riduculous to tell everyone to play on flat, empty planes. It ignores the fundamental nature of playing in a three dimensional environment.

I think it's odd as well.

But that didn't seem to be what you were saying with that snippet of a statement earlier.

This is much clearer.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Plus destroids, Zen Infantry, and more don't ignore terrain. Pods only ignore terrain during their Leap. You last example remember? It shows that Pods need to spend a bit choosing when to jump. Just because some units can fly over terrain is no reason to freak out....again.

Then you'll have foot infantry and Bioroids and much more that will have to deal with terrain. Southern Cross Battloids. Masters Terminator Infantry.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's pretend I have 3 units next to some "Rough" terrain. Let's say the terrain is about 8 inches across and it is some heavy woods. They all need to get past it and use it to advance and for cover bonuses.

One is a Tomahawk without any movement modifiers/modes. Another is a Battleod with a Leap of 5. The last is a Male Power Armor or Veritech with a Move of 5 and Flight.

The Tomahawk has no way to mitigate the terrain and will move at half speed only moving 2.5 inches a turn and take 3 turns to pass through the woods. Ouch

The Pod can leap 5 inches into the woods and then move another 2.5 inches with his 5 inches of normal movement. In one turn he will be to the edge of the woods, have cover, and then next turn will need to decide to stay or move.

The Veritech or Male Power Armor can move a full 5 inches due to flight but then is in the middle and next turn he can move to the edge and stay in the woods or, in the case of the veritech, transform. Point is, they will be more than halfway through but not all the way like the Pod. They can fly but not very fast.

So does terrain make a difference here? You decide.

What does shoot some things in the foot are buildings and how easy they made them to blow up. They need to be 4x as strong or have rules aginst the UEDF wantonly destroying buildings.

Now as far as measuring range. I'm on the fence because mini to mini makes more sense and I pointed that out ages ago. The reason I think it was done the way it was, or at least the way I understand it, is that if you have a bunch of pods together, and unit love to stay in Close Formation, and you want to measure from one pod to a target, often terrain like tress and lampposts can be on the table and get knocked down if you are not careful. Measuring vertically, while less intuitive and realistic, removes the problem of knocking things over as you measure range. Personally I prefer to take the chance of knocking things over, and have many times when I play.

ok say as the UEDF I have no Destroids, just veritechs, armored vertitechs and such which have flight, I am the Zentraedi with anything but Zentraedi soldiers.

so tell me what good is terrain then ? terrain is meant to be more then a line of site blocker, but also a modifier to movement, it can't modify movement if the blasted vehicles can ignore the movement.

Suppose I have all aircraft....what good is terrain then?

That idea is kinda ridiculous. You can ALWAYS build a force to specifically ignore terrain. It will also cost you a bit more since units that have flight generally cost more on a unit to unit basis.

Again, terrain as I explained does provide advantages to some units like in my example the Battlepod would take one turn crossing what MPA would take 2 turns to cross.

Then again there is the cover thingy. Terrain does more than block LOS, it provides cover. Makes you harder to hit. It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.

Again, there are plenty of things that are effected by the terrain. You can even add some Hazardous terrain that cannot be moved through like lava flows or a large set of water rapids or just use an open field and see what happens if that works for you.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid can fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.

 Mike1975 wrote:
It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.

Of course not.

We've already established the superiority of the Battlepod kickline.

If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid cannot fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.

Wait, I thought we just established that Battloids can fly?

 Forar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.

Of course not.

We've already established the superiority of the Battlepod kickline.

If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid cannot fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.

Wait, I thought we just established that Battloids can fly?

hate to say it, but yeah what Forar said, that Battlepod kickline is ugly plain and simple, and lava flows don't slow up flyers.

 Forar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.

Of course not.

We've already established the superiority of the Battlepod kickline.

If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid cannot fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.

Wait, I thought we just established that Battloids can fly?

Damn typo...fixed

 Forar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.

Of course not.
We've already established the superiority of the Battlepod kickline.

Massed shooting and massed kicking has been painful.
I need to read the rules "again" to see how hand to hand is limited i.e. if it is only with "fast movers" because if Veritechs fly in all cases and ground based units cannont HtH flyers...
Anyway, you see where I am going with this because each time I was in bioroid or guardian mode when this happened and I thought they did not fly.

If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid cannot fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.

Wait, I thought we just established that Battloids can fly?

I think Mike was not sure if Asterios had an issue with a bioroid veritech being able to fly.
Pretty sure the hard-core fan in him would not object...
It feels to me like they should "leap" since I cannot envision them doing the "superman" flying around, always seemed to be limited to quick "hops" or drops, at least jet or guardian would be more efficient for extended flight.

Asterios wrote:

 Forar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.

Of course not.

We've already established the superiority of the Battlepod kickline.

If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid cannot fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.

Wait, I thought we just established that Battloids can fly?

hate to say it, but yeah what Forar said, that Battlepod kickline is ugly plain and simple, and lava flows don't slow up flyers.

I've only had HTH a few times. Things are usually dead before HTH has any use except for the Spartan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Out of curiosity I posted a poll on whether the Veritech in Battloid mode should fly on the FB page. Already racking in some results.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I've only had HTH a few times. Things are usually dead before HTH has any use except for the Spartan.

After the "Itano Circus" is over, the shooting is typically the mop-up stage.
I had beefed up the buildings to 4X in our games so it did allow for some alleyway "muggings" which were best left unseen to the genteel public.
Would love to see the special character with the Spartan and two clubs have a go, too bad as a walker it is unlikely that would happen.

 n815e wrote:

 Forar wrote:
That seems like a spurious statement. Surely there are ground or sea based miniatures games that don't worry about height/elevation.

RRT even says it ignores elevation on page 10 of the rule book.

Apologies for the pedantry, but stating it definitively like that is just begging to either fail immediately or be 'no true Scotsman'd'. (as in, "oh, X isn't a real mini's game")

Three dimensional models are by their very nature three dimensional. But feel free to actually prove me wrong, show me a miniatures game that doesn't consider three dimensions

Full Thrust? X-Wing? Silent Death? Anything focusing on space combat?

I wrote this a while back...advantages and when to do HTH

1. A Zen or Malcontent player has another players destroids outnumbered and he can reduce their firepower by getting into hand to hand because they cannot fire in hand to hand combat and help their buddies and it helps reduce their overwhelming firepower. IF you are in range to move into hand to hand with a pod or two you are most likely to be better off sitting still and using the Focus Fire of the pod and Accuracy of the main guns so now you can fire your primary and secondary weapon for free and can hit easier. So you get a 50% increase in firepower and an increase in accuracy.

2. You have something like a FPA that is behind enemy lines that will die really quickly unless she does something to prevent the other units from firing on her. Zooming up a squadron of FPA and going HtH with a Mac II would be interesting since the Mac can no longer fire and the FPA cannot be fired on. The only hope for the Mac is some nearby units coming to the rescue.

3. You have units that excel in Hand to Hand like a Spartan and want to duke it out. A Spartan can kill two pods in a turn in Hand to Hand. It gets 2 attacks and each does 2 more points of damage. He can pay two command points and power punch twice and kill 2 pods doing 6 damage with each clubbing attack.

so far

Poll is flawed. Cheese should be broken up into flavors. I hate blue cheese but love most every other non-stinky kind!

Was that really an issue on facebook? Here it seems the biggest issue is that almost no one noticed that the battloid has flight due to the way the cards are laid out, not that it shouldn't.

I was just curious....I also made a post with pics on how to see and understand the cards....


Why sometimes Flight and the Veritech can be confusing.....

If you look at the pics the Tomahawk and all the other mecha list Mecha Traits that affect them right under the MDC listing as with the Tomahawk shown.

On a Veritech it lists the initial traits as shown in the second pic because they are not specific to any mode or as in the case of the Battloid Restriction are quite explicit in the actual description as to what they limit. Although you can argue many times Battloids are seen shooting missiles from their wings by Max.

The additional information is kinda confusing for some since it does not show flight under each individual mode as some people would expect.

The mecha cards are the exact same way as you can see in the third pic.

The problem is also augmented by Hover. People assume Hover has some elements of VTOL Flight in Guardian Mode or has something to do with actual movement. If only adds a negative to-hit modifier for really quick units like the VT in Guardian mode and contrary to what many assume, has nothing to do with the actual movement. In essence it was misnamed IMHO.

I hope this helps some of you out there.

It's more potentially confusing because the aircraft ability for the jet mode GRANTS flight so someone who just looks at the modes sees the battloids walking (which is mainly what they do), the guardians hovering/skimming just above the surface (which is mainly what they do), and jets flying (which is all they do). The rules still make sense even without that flight mention on the other side of the card.

Yes but Guardian modes can fly....and Hover has nothing to do with movement if you read the ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem is that Hover as a Trait does not match what people assume Hover is.....

 Mike1975 wrote:
Yes but Guardian modes can fly....and Hover has nothing to do with movement if you read the ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem is that Hover as a Trait does not match what people assume Hover is.....

Hover =/= flying. It is by definition moving at a very low altitude (usually a few feet on a cushion of air or magnetically in real life) which is what the trait grants you and simulates in the game . I'm not sure how you can say that "hover has nothing to do with movement if you read the ability" if you actually read the ability. Are you working on the advanced rules version or something? My retail release has the hover rule include that you treat rough terrain as open terrain FOR THE PURPOSES OF MOVEMENT.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Forar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.

Of course not.
We've already established the superiority of the Battlepod kickline.

Massed shooting and massed kicking has been painful.
I need to read the rules "again" to see how hand to hand is limited i.e. if it is only with "fast movers" because if Veritechs fly in all cases and ground based units cannont HtH flyers...
Anyway, you see where I am going with this because each time I was in bioroid or guardian mode when this happened and I thought they did not fly.

If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid cannot fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.

Wait, I thought we just established that Battloids can fly?

I think Mike was not sure if Asterios had an issue with a bioroid veritech being able to fly.
Pretty sure the hard-core fan in him would not object...
It feels to me like they should "leap" since I cannot envision them doing the "superman" flying around, always seemed to be limited to quick "hops" or drops, at least jet or guardian would be more efficient for extended flight.

problem is in feasibility and flight simulation, a batteloid cannot fly, plain and simple, it can thrust, but not fly in the true sense of the word, its thrusters will shoot it in the direction they are pointing, now people will say they have attitude thrusters to change directions like when in space, problem is, those only work in space, they are like a fire extinguisher and have "0" power on earth, so technically Battleoids do not have flight, even the show just shows them thrusting and then changing to other modes to fly around.

so why on gods green earth would someone give battloids controlled flight, it would be like giving a rocket the power to do controlled loop d'loops and such it doesn't happen.

 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
Yes but Guardian modes can fly....and Hover has nothing to do with movement if you read the ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem is that Hover as a Trait does not match what people assume Hover is.....

Hover =/= flying. It is by definition moving at the very low altitude of a few feet (usually on a cushion of air or magnetically in real life) which is what the trait grants you and simulates in the game . I'm not sure how you can say that "hover has nothing to do with movement if you read the ability" if you actually read the ability. Are you working on the advanced rules version or something? My retail release has the hover rule include that you treat rough terrain as open terrain FOR THE PURPOSES OF MOVEMENT.

Not be definition in RRT.....you just treat rough terrain as open.....but Guardian Modes also fly. The principal addition is the -1 penalty to be hit. So Hover is not =/= Flying. It is quite different. Hover is more akin to the Hover of a Hovertank. So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.

 Mike1975 wrote:
So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.

I'm not claiming otherwise. You're the one who said it has "nothing" to do with movement when fully half the rule is explicitly about movement. I don't mean to sound rude but you seem to be uncharacteristically blunt, stubborn, and wrong about this one particular aspect of the game. Is there something behind the scenes going on with that rule or something? Did you get into it with Carmen about flying/hovering conventional units or something? You've been rudely "correcting" folks about this for a few days but some good did come of it I guess since we didn't notice about the flight for all modes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mike1975 wrote:
So Hover is not =/= Flying. It is quite different. Hover is more akin to the Hover of a Hovertank. So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.

Which is my point so I'm not sure why you're arguing it back to me. Hover is NOT misnamed in this game as it does give you what "hover" should, skimming above the surface like a hovertank. The question I think you're trying to pose is whether or not guardians actually do that as opposed to flying (but without aircraft/afterburner).

 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.

I'm not claiming otherwise. You're the one who said it has "nothing" to do with movement when fully half the rule is explicitly about movement. I don't mean to sound rude but you seem to be uncharacteristically blunt, stubborn, and wrong about this one particular aspect of the game. Is there something behind the scenes going on with that rule or something? Did you get into it with Carmen about flying/hovering conventional units or something?

well mike did say to me he was not happy with what they called it, he said they should have called it jink od dodge or something other then hover, since what is the sense to have hover when it has flight ?

 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.

I'm not claiming otherwise. You're the one who said it has "nothing" to do with movement when fully half the rule is explicitly about movement. I don't mean to sound rude but you seem to be uncharacteristically blunt, stubborn, and wrong about this one particular aspect of the game. Is there something behind the scenes going on with that rule or something? Did you get into it with Carmen about flying/hovering conventional units or something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mike1975 wrote:
So Hover is not =/= Flying. It is quite different. Hover is more akin to the Hover of a Hovertank. So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.

Which is my point so I'm not sure why you're arguing it back to me. Hover is NOT misnamed in this game as it does give you what "hover" should, skimming above the surface like a hovertank. The question I think you're trying to pose is whether or not guardians actually do that as opposed to flying (but without aircraft/afterburner).

I agree, I reread it and was wrong that it has no effect on movement but to say, as you did, that Hover =/= Flying is just flat out incorrect. Guardians do not simply hover along like a Hovertank but can quite adequately fly. Hence the idea that people see Hover and assume flight is part of the reason why people make incorrect assumptions when looking at the Mecha Traits on a Veritech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's easy to call obstinate something you don't agree with. Just as I could say you are being obstinate in thinking that a Guardian Mode veritech is correct only having Hover and not also including flight.

Note that Having Flight also negates the movement portion of the Hover trait and makes it so that it simply provides a -1 to strike for that unit.