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So...
All flush with the "success" of the recent update, there is actually not much to talk about.

I am waiting on a BBB response letter from PB, I am sure it will be exciting.

I guess we shall see how it goes from here, if another uninformative "update" happens along, further government fun may need to be applied.
My options are much more limited as a Canadian citizen than what is available to our USA friends.
I am still very disappointed how little there is for consumer protection in Canada, "archaic" springs to mind.
I did find this interesting document:
http://cmcweb.ca/eic/site/cmc-cmc.nsf/vwapj/Sales_Template.pdf/$file/Sales_Template.pdf
Well, looks like some collective is available that I could lodge a complaint through here:
http://www.econsumer.gov/english/resolve/overview.shtm
It appears to be hosted by the FTC.
Anyway, back pocket for now, hopefully they now need to show some movement on this project.
I am oddly filled with some optimism.

It seems to be a bit of an uneasy truce, or at least apathy has settled back in for most.

They've moved the goalposts repeatedly, but have (repeatedly) doubled down on this vague 4-7 month time frame. For that to be real, they'll either need to have things to start showing progress in the next few months, or begin to walk it back further. Or they'll resume their silence.

Any of the 3 will drive topics of conversation, now it's just a waiting game to see which happens (or doesn't happen, as the case may be) first.

I agree that silence is the worst choice at present, as it just feeds ammunition to those who are beginning to sense blood in the water. A slow but steady (2-3 updates per month) trickle of *tangible* progress will let them drag things out, but even then we're only a few months from even the far end of that target being untenable and they're back at square one.

Well, I had succeeded in what I set out to do:

Identify clear and easy means of having recourse for a backer if a creator decides it is a low priority to finish a project or choose not to complete promised product.

The apathy of the backers was largely based on thinking there was nothing they could do. The "blood in the water" is now people cluing-in that there are easy ways to apply pressure.

I think that REALLY made Kevin angry realizing he truly is answerable to his promises, I think he may rethink kickstarters now due to the accountability.

"It is an "investment" and no guarantee of getting anything", indeed... debunking that was a happy moment.

I still REALLY want to see wave 2 happen and I think with these "gentle" means of motivation we may have a hope of seeing it before the heat-death of the universe before it is 98% complete!

Haven't they already walked it back? I was under the assumption they would have wave 2 out the door by the end of the year. Last update mentioned end of the year, or after Chinese New Year.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Haven't they already walked it back? I was under the assumption they would have wave 2 out the door by the end of the year. Last update mentioned end of the year, or after Chinese New Year.

Yes, they conceded next year first quarter.
I figured a while back they were roughly paralleling the wave 1 release with Chinese new year woes and stuff, so expect to see a big push for GenCon 2016 and a poll on retail release of wave 2 before we get them.
Karma will of course bite them in the butt and North America will see delivery December 2016 and the rest of the world around April 2017.

This is assuming of course no holdups of no money for dies.

 Talizvar wrote:

This is assuming of course no holdups of no money for dies.

Or assuming they don't hold us up for additional shipping money or the project dies.

Off the top of my head (as in, I simply cannot be bothered citing this forum post), around Adepticon the goal was the end of the year, during the Open House it was the end of the year (but maybe Oct/Nov) or early 2016. Now it's been again stated to be the end of the year or Q1 2016.

So if I'm not mistaken, there's been some minor drift, in that the "maybe early" language is missing, which is sensible, because Oct/Nov would require gak being loaded onto a ship within mere weeks, and they're still sorting the bloody figures out.

As per previous conversations, yes, if substantial quality improvements were being made, delays would be more justified and tolerable. However, I have minimal faith in them substantially improving anything, so lengthy delays for negligible returns isn't an even deal in my eyes.

If they actually get boxes in the mail by the end of March and/or make vast improvements on the figures, I'll revisit that stance, but (to me) they haven't remotely begun to rebuild benefit of the doubt on that.

blood is in the water, if PB doesn't show any physical tangible proof of their working on things then they will be fighting to keep the doors open.

Yeah, I think PB's reaction to all of this has further eroded any remaining goodwill rather than quell ill feelings.

Personally, I'm sick of them moving the goalposts. If the AG ever contacts me back, I'm going to push them to go after PB as there is no way in hell they'll make December, and that date was the final deadline for me.

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, I think PB's reaction to all of this has further eroded any remaining goodwill rather than quell ill feelings.

Personally, I'm sick of them moving the goalposts. If the AG ever contacts me back, I'm going to push them to go after PB as there is no way in hell they'll make December, and that date was the final deadline for me.

You may as well do it now, then. Wave Two is never getting produced, clapping fan-friends notwithstanding.

Merijeek wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, I think PB's reaction to all of this has further eroded any remaining goodwill rather than quell ill feelings.

Personally, I'm sick of them moving the goalposts. If the AG ever contacts me back, I'm going to push them to go after PB as there is no way in hell they'll make December, and that date was the final deadline for me.

You may as well do it now, then. Wave Two is never getting produced, clapping fan-friends notwithstanding.

I've already e-mailed them about a week ago (along with the BBB), I'm just waiting for a reply at this point.

I don't know I'm on the fence about contacting my states BBB and AG as well as Michigans. The last update was just a rehash of what was said before. The only new info is that the backers are mean and that PB cares soooooo much about rrt and "you the backers."

I'm not looking for a refund, but I do want my wave two models.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
I don't know I'm on the fence about contacting my states BBB and AG as well as Michigans. The last update was just a rehash of what was said before. The only new info is that the backers are mean and that PB cares soooooo much about rrt and "you the backers."

Yet, it's being seen by some as an actually informative update. Which boggles my mind. I guess it's true what they say, if you crap on long enough, some people will believe it. The only three bits of actual news were speaking with the broker, working to cut down parts count, convention exclusives having the release date extended, and the conventional vehicles being the same but with the caveat limited sales might see them not produced. The first isn't new (mentioned in the pre-GC KSU), I'm pretty sure the second isn't either (can't source it), the third is no surprise, and the fourth is irrational (as the only thing needed to produce them is the stats and some basic artwork, as the miniatures are from an existing line, and don't need sculpting). Of course, the real news is coming "soon".

 Cypher-xv wrote:
I'm not looking for a refund, but I do want my wave two models.

To quote Stephen from Braveheart, "The Almighty tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're fethed.".

There was another piece of info that you missed Morgan - moving delivery in Q1 (so, around end of March). Although he words it as "possibly", we all know full well that once dates start getting thrown out, it'll be the far extreme date or beyond.

here ya go fern:

these are the responses for the BBB from Kevin.

Saved, thanks.

 Stormonu wrote:
There was another piece of info that you missed Morgan - moving delivery in Q1 (so, around end of March). Although he words it as "possibly", we all know full well that once dates start getting thrown out, it'll be the far extreme date or beyond.

I guess you're technically correct (the best kind of correct!), but as I don't consider completion dates to be worth anything from PB, it didn't trigger as news. This is what, the third or fourth pushback for Wave 2. EOY 2014 (remember that?), EOY 2015, Q1 2016. Probably another in there. And at least the last two have been while under the new policy of "we don't give release dates". For someone who doesn't give release dates, they sure do give a lot of release dates.

I guess you could also count "We DO listen to you. We learn, adapt and make changes." as news. Because prior to this announcement, there's been zero evidence that this has been happening. Kevin later goes on to talk about how they've "been trying to listen to all the voices on the web", and this leads to analysis paralysis, which means they've been missing quite a few of their voices. For years now, Forar (and others) have been pointing out the enemy of the good is the perfect, essentially pointing out that any kind of informative movement/communication is better than silence. Add in the number of people with a direct line to KevCo (Mike, NMI, Jeffar) who have stated (and I've got no reason to disbelieve they have), that they've passed messages on up to Kevin and Wayne personally, and still gotten silence, well... doesn't put much faith in them listening.

"And it has caused Palladium Books to be too quiet while some frustrated and angry backers rail against us and seem to find fault in EVERYTHING we say and do.". See, this is just utter crap. Most "frustrated and angry" backers DON'T find fault in everything they do, indicating they DON'T fething listen. Most "F&A" backers find fault when they're silent for long periods of time, or being completely dismissive of their concerns, despite having had their money for two plus years and counting, and showing little actual movement towards completing the project.

Did people get mad over Max/MiriyaGate? SpartanGate? Gen-Ghazi? And the continual "sorry, we'll try to communicate better"? Sure. But when they've shown actual progress ("ten questions", Feb Wave 2 prototypes, actual informative updates, hell, even the Wave split was accepted by most of what they would consider "haterz"), there's been mostly supportive, along with mostly constructive criticism. It's when they've failed to follow up on these things (still waiting on some answers to those "ten questions", and the followup questions they were supplied), that's when they get derision and mockery. But I guess it's easier to just throw all complaints, justified and not, into one bucket and label them "haterz", than actually address those concerns.

While sure, there are a few people they can never win over, there are a crapload more they've turned against them. And that's not on those backers, that's on Palladium.

Taking a while for the other BBB letters to process, I should check on it. Should be notifications though.

I don't really know why I'm typing this up...guess I need more to do with my life.

As an outside observer, one of the things that bothers me (and I of course have less cause to be bothered than many here) is how they continue to act like there's no blueprint for how they could dramatically improve their communications with the backers and thus the project as a whole. It's not like they're explorers in some brand-new frontier anymore like could have been argued when they first funded lo these many years ago. Certainly in 2013 the idea of million-dollar KickStarters for small companies and major scope creep were reasonably novel in how these companies coped with it. You can see sort of a learning period wherein these companies (and their backers) get a rough education in manufacturing and the many pitfalls that they were not really privy to as much in the past.

If one looks around the KickStarter landscape today though, there's ample information on how to make that work. Projects that show this off the top of my head and an Obvious Lesson that Palladium Books Will Miss (OLPBWM) from them:

KD:M - Technically even later that Robotech; the Core game was supposed to be November of 2013 (as was Robotech *cough*) and it will likely get to backers September of 2015. That can go down as a bit of a miscalculation. However, as Orlando mentioned, the backers aren't filing with the BBB and rallying behind anyone like Rick-the-Ultimate-Instigator-of-All-Evil, even though KD:M has half the updates on the KS as Robotech. OLPBWM: Quantity is less important than quality. KD:M's fewer updates are *packed* with tangible proof of progress, and the quality is high. Now, Adam does have a significant advantage that he's selling a personal vision so nobody can tell him that the Gorm's left bottom mandible arm is .2mm too short according to the source materials, but being able to dodge nit-pickers isn't that huge of an advantage.

Dreamforge Games - Ended up being pretty late for everything, with an entire year passing between products actually being released despite supposedly being done in that year that was missed. Obviously scope creep reared it's head there, along with the naivete of the time from all parties in terms of what could be accomplished. Withall these delays, people did indeed get antsy and as a true one-man show Mark did sometimes fall behind on communication. F&A backers can be seen in the thread at Dakka. When given ample opportunities to throw his partner under the bus he continually emphasized that the delays were on him, and that the buck stopped there. He would also engage in honest conversation about things such as the process and where things were. While I'm sure it didn't placate everybody, I think the products have enjoyed reasonable success. OLPBWM: If you act worthy of respect and trust, people will respect and trust you. This makes everything easier, for what should be obvious reasons.

Mantic - They've run I think half the gaming KickStarters on the site it feels like, and that's just what they've done in the last week. They've made a HUGE assortment of...shall we say negatively-received decisions in terms of quality and material and you can readily find a good number of people will never buy from them again due to various factors. Mantic also sometimes get a few things to retail before it gets to backers, similar to GenConGate. Yet they still have successful KickStarter projects. If PB ever wants to attempt to go back to the crowdfunding well, this would be a company to examine in-depth, but they mostly accomplish this (I think) by being reasonably accessible. When they're called out on the carpet, they do often accept it as feedback and incorporate it back into how they do business. While some of the things are obvious and shouldn't have needed to be pointed out, the fact that they do change things demonstrates that they are, in fact, listening. Everyone makes mistakes, so people are generally willing to forgive (if not forget) so long as they try to make amends and improve. OLPBWM: Not every detractor is complaining for the sake of complaining and negative feedback is more important for improvement than positive. Nobody is perfect, so if you believe you can't improve you're lying to yourself. As a corollary to that, false humility without visible change can be argued to be worse than doing nothing; the latter just makes you appear foolish, the former means you're foolish and a liar.

SDE:TFK - I know I've brought this up before, but Ninja Division ran what I would describe as a near-perfect (from a communications standpoint) campaign here. Their updates were regular, contained quality information like we discussed earlier and kept the backers in the loop on what was happening. It showed they clearly had a plan, and when things went sideways they were quick to mention it to people so that bad news was relayed as quickly as possible. Yes, your company still gets burned by bad news, but it's eventually going to happen regardless is it not? Why add weeks of silence and/or obfuscation as fuel to that fire? People as a group know "technical truths" when they see them, and they don't appreciate having information they should have known kept from them. OLPBWM: Take your lumps when you deserve them; trying to hide what you know only hurts you twice as the people you tell are now angry about the bad news itself and the fact you didn't tell them. Being told "the latest from the manufacturer shows these kits may need some major tweaking, so X is probably going to delay things" isn't going to make anyone happy, but at least they know where things stand.

Of course, that all these things are obvious to a random person on the Internet also lends credence that PB knows full and well what they could be doing, but don't want to be doing these things because the reality is indeed that bad. Not stating that as a fact, but based on the information at hand it does seem a strong possibility. Since I've certainly blathered on for long enough, what are some OLPBWM that are out there from other projects? Yes, yes Rick...if you feth up badly enough it doesn't matter if you deliver something, you'll still be fined. I'm thinking of more quasi-positive angles for this fanciful world powered by unicorns where PB would ever internalize the wisdom of learning from the evidence offered by the experience of others.

Well said, Krinsath. Wish I could exalt it twice, and even more I wish PB would read it and take it to heart.

Krinsath: Awesome.
PB seems to not look for best practices by others.
They unfortunately need to be poked with sharp sticks.
Speaking of that, my BBB saga continues on, Cypher may have more to add to his list soon.

here is my top ten list of things PB has done wrong in this project:

1: Communication, communication is key in all things, its how we pass along things and so forth, if you tell your backers there is going to be a delay and then be honest about why the delay instead of blaming anyone and everyone including the meter lady, you might have some receptive backers.

2: PB still lives in the 80's seriously Kevin called table top miniature games a new hobby companies and people are just now breaking into, seriously., as it goes Kevin is still stuck in the 80's and if it wasn't for many of his fan friends and such helping him and doing things for him, he would still be accepting orders by mail only.

3: treating this game like an RPG game, this game while may have RPG in the title and have some rules for RPG is not an RPG game, especially in Kevin's hands, as far as Kevin is concerned if he puts out an RPG book for a game every other year hes happy and all is good, you can't do that with table top miniature games you have to bring out product every year and or even twice a year.

4: too many fething pieces, this game is a disaster because its not a starter game, the starter box should have had easy to assemble or single piece minis, not this fething disaster we got.

5: too many unique units, PB brought out way too many unique units in this kickstarter (and can see the Conan game falling because of this too), they should have just added more of the basic game units to the pledges for stretch goals and saved the other unique pieces to bring out each year or so.

6: PB seriously underestimated costs, PB might have been able to deliver a Kickstarter on what they got, problem is they over did everything, from making so many piece minis to reserving factory time and their GC booths and false advertising (false release dates advertising), and constant changing of things, they are most likely out of money, was any of it spent on things other then RRT? maybe, but without looking at the books no telling and if they were on what? well probably on Con Exclusives and keeping the lights on and maybe even the NG books.

7: not hiring a project manager, PB's biggest mistake was not hiring a manager to over see this whole project and one who knew what they were doing not a friend.

8: Kevin, yes Kevin he is his own worst enemy he is doing more damage to the company and this project then anyone could ever hope to accomplish.

9: listening to fan friends, sorry Kevvy boy listening to your fan friends is not the best advice, you might be better to get hold of a real lawyer, instead of the armchair lawyers defending you, you have been listening way too much to CoK (Cult of Kevin) which has caused you to live in a fantasy world where you think you are above the law, and perfect, well Kevin is probably finding out he is not above the law and wonders why people are being mean to him(since he still thinks he is perfect).

10: refunds think of all the problems PB could have made go away with refunds (full refund so they can be booted from the KS), seriously Kevin isn't a few hundred dollars or so per backer worth it to get rid of thousands of dollars of headaches?



As it goes Attorney generals are being called in, we backers could let it go with just that and PB is screwed no matter what, there are only 2 avenues open to PB to get out of this now

1: Bring out Wave 2 this year.

2: Refund backers who filed.

if PB does neither of these this year, PB will not be around for another year. furthermore PB could even lose their IP to Rift's and such.

PB can even try filing for bankruptcy but a fine is a fine and will be collected and with each state filing it could be a lot of fines.

If that were a Palladium rpg style top ten, it would have 9 bullet points because only unimaginative types would limit a top ten list to 10 items (but 9 would be split up in 9a and 9b... and 5 would be listed before 3 because reformatting it is too hard)... and you would have posted it 3 years after posting the first line.

Some good points raised again by both of you that will again be ignored by anyone with the power to effect change.

 Krinsath wrote:
As an outside observer, one of the things that bothers me (and I of course have less cause to be bothered than many here) is how they continue to act like there's no blueprint for how they could dramatically improve their communications with the backers and thus the project as a whole.

What I've noticed with crowdfunding, is that, if a project funds, the creator doesn't change how they do business. Doom that Came to Atlantic City is the most egregious example. The creator misspent crowdfunding funds the same way he did funds from a previous private group of investors. Not too hard to find other examples, if you don't mind tearing scabs off wounds.

Thanks for your post, though. Myself, I haven't kept up with Mantic post-funding, so appreciate the info!

ced1106 wrote:


What I've noticed with crowdfunding, is that, if a project funds, the creator doesn't change how they do business. Doom that Came to Atlantic City is the most egregious example. The creator misspent crowdfunding funds the same way he did funds from a previous private group of investors. Not too hard to find other examples, if you don't mind tearing scabs off wounds.

Thanks for your post, though. Myself, I haven't kept up with Mantic post-funding, so appreciate the info!

People seem so desperate for an 'Anti-GW', they have given Mantic a pass on some pretty egregious behavior during and after their Kickstarter campaigns, and generally very poor after the fact customer service. After backing two of their campaigns, no more forever. Mantic is dead to me.

Asterios wrote:
here is my top ten list of things PB has done wrong in this project:

1: Communication, communication is key in all things, its how we pass along things and so forth, if you tell your backers there is going to be a delay and then be honest about why the delay instead of blaming anyone and everyone including the meter lady, you might have some receptive backers.

AGREED


2: PB still lives in the 80's seriously Kevin called table top miniature games a new hobby companies and people are just now breaking into, seriously., as it goes Kevin is still stuck in the 80's and if it wasn't for many of his fan friends and such helping him and doing things for him, he would still be accepting orders by mail only.

AGREE, but only in Part. Yes, PB needs to update basically almost everything.


3: treating this game like an RPG game, this game while may have RPG in the title and have some rules for RPG is not an RPG game, especially in Kevin's hands, as far as Kevin is concerned if he puts out an RPG book for a game every other year hes happy and all is good, you can't do that with table top miniature games you have to bring out product every year and or even twice a year.

Nope, the license requires things to be based off the RPG, so it was. That's been well known for a long time now.


4: too many fething pieces, this game is a disaster because its not a starter game, the starter box should have had easy to assemble or single piece minis, not this fething disaster we got.

Agreed, again in part. I'm not so much against the number of part, but how they were split up. If the legs had not been in so many pieces it would have been better. The arms on them were done the right way except the forarm being two pieces. The shoulder and elbow joints worked out really well.


5: too many unique units, PB brought out way too many unique units in this kickstarter (and can see the Conan game falling because of this too), they should have just added more of the basic game units to the pledges for stretch goals and saved the other unique pieces to bring out each year or so.

Possibly, they jumped all the way to the end of the story. They should have left things like the Upgraded MPA and FPA as well as the YF-4 and Jotun out of the KS and focused on the rest.


6: PB seriously underestimated costs, PB might have been able to deliver a Kickstarter on what they got, problem is they over did everything, from making so many piece minis to reserving factory time and their GC booths and false advertising (false release dates advertising), and constant changing of things, they are most likely out of money, was any of it spent on things other then RRT? maybe, but without looking at the books no telling and if they were on what? well probably on Con Exclusives and keeping the lights on and maybe even the NG books.

Again, this is assuming PB did the costs. All evidence points to ND running the KS campaign with little to no oversight. PB does not have the expertise to know what to oversee even if they had tried. They should have gotten a PM to manage it.


7: not hiring a project manager, PB's biggest mistake was not hiring a manager to over see this whole project and one who knew what they were doing not a friend.

Again, answered in #6.


8: Kevin, yes Kevin he is his own worst enemy he is doing more damage to the company and this project then anyone could ever hope to accomplish.

I long ago stopped reading most of the rinse and repeat updates on everything including breakfast. The unnecessary hyperbole is in the updates is very unprofessional.


9: listening to fan friends, sorry Kevvy boy listening to your fan friends is not the best advice, you might be better to get hold of a real lawyer, instead of the armchair lawyers defending you, you have been listening way too much to CoK (Cult of Kevin) which has caused you to live in a fantasy world where you think you are above the law, and perfect, well Kevin is probably finding out he is not above the law and wonders why people are being mean to him(since he still thinks he is perfect).

Yes, PB needs to open their ears up and get out of their holes and find out what is up. It's like someone who only watches Rachel Maddow day in and day out. That is an issue. I doubt that will ever change.


10: refunds think of all the problems PB could have made go away with refunds (full refund so they can be booted from the KS), seriously Kevin isn't a few hundred dollars or so per backer worth it to get rid of thousands of dollars of headaches?

That all depends on the number and amount of the refunds and the state of the project. If they opened that door to a few, it would be expected every time someone got their pee pee hurt. Since the project was budgeted and promised for certain items, giving many refunds may very well prove more problematic. Let's say they gave a bunch and could no longer afford to make the YF-4? Do they simply say sorry, due to backer refunds the last X campaign promises are now null and void?

The AG and the rest is moot. We all know that you have openly stated your objective, the destruction of PB (A.K.A. Revenge) . #1 I see as unlikely in the extreme and #2 I see as even less likely.


As it goes Attorney generals are being called in, we backers could let it go with just that and PB is screwed no matter what, there are only 2 avenues open to PB to get out of this now

1: Bring out Wave 2 this year.

2: Refund backers who filed.

if PB does neither of these this year, PB will not be around for another year. furthermore PB could even lose their IP to Rift's and such.

PB can even try filing for bankruptcy but a fine is a fine and will be collected and with each state filing it could be a lot of fines.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

3: treating this game like an RPG game, this game while may have RPG in the title and have some rules for RPG is not an RPG game, especially in Kevin's hands, as far as Kevin is concerned if he puts out an RPG book for a game every other year hes happy and all is good, you can't do that with table top miniature games you have to bring out product every year and or even twice a year.

Nope, the license requires things to be based off the RPG, so it was. That's been well known for a long time now.

My point was that as a miniatures game they need to put out new product every year unlike an RPG which can go years with nothing new (like PB), not talking as in play style but release style.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Asterios wrote:
5: too many unique units, PB brought out way too many unique units in this kickstarter (and can see the Conan game falling because of this too), they should have just added more of the basic game units to the pledges for stretch goals and saved the other unique pieces to bring out each year or so.

Possibly, they jumped all the way to the end of the story. They should have left things like the Upgraded MPA and FPA as well as the YF-4 and Jotun out of the KS and focused on the rest.

not just those, but left all of the wave 2 stuff off, that way they could release a new model or two every year and keep interest going in the game till the next generation comes out.

 Mike1975 wrote:
The AG and the rest is moot. We all know that you have openly stated your objective, the destruction of PB (A.K.A. Revenge) . #1 I see as unlikely in the extreme and #2 I see as even less likely. [/b]

its not revenge, revenge would mean passion while i do have passion for Robotech (love the show and stuff) I feel no true hatred or animosity towards PB, this is more like a civic duty, if I see someone robbing the bank I'm not going to ignore it and go on my way, i will contact the authorities and inform them of the situation.

ced1106 wrote:

 Krinsath wrote:
As an outside observer, one of the things that bothers me (and I of course have less cause to be bothered than many here) is how they continue to act like there's no blueprint for how they could dramatically improve their communications with the backers and thus the project as a whole.

What I've noticed with crowdfunding, is that, if a project funds, the creator doesn't change how they do business. Doom that Came to Atlantic City is the most egregious example. The creator misspent crowdfunding funds the same way he did funds from a previous private group of investors. Not too hard to find other examples, if you don't mind tearing scabs off wounds.

Thanks for your post, though. Myself, I haven't kept up with Mantic post-funding, so appreciate the info!

Doom seems to have been run intentionally to defraud backers though. The whole thing with the guy using other peoples names to promote the KS, getting the KS money, using it to move to another state, take uni courses and buy stuff etc, seems to indicate that.

No, I'm saying that how a creator behaves after funding has, from the crowdfunding projects I've seen, pretty much the same as before funding. Doesn't matter if its fraud or mismanagement.

Sining wrote:
Doom seems to have been run intentionally to defraud backers though. The whole thing with the guy using other peoples names to promote the KS, getting the KS money, using it to move to another state, take uni courses and buy stuff etc, seems to indicate that.

What it did establish is what was promised needs to be fulfilled or some reimbursement.
What we are facing here is PB may not "feel like it" or the efforts may be inconvenient at the time or a financial hardship in their eyes and they decide to expand the timeline.
Say they spent all the money on the KS, now it is out of their pocket to complete the promises.
If they can push out production, not creating anything tangible for 10 years, can anyone say they do not intend on completing what was promised?
They are very quick to point out that the "estimated completion" is just that, when does it get ridiculous in the eyes of the law? (obviously not in PB's projects)

PB is quick to point out their high amount of frustration, that is typically at it's worst when things are out of your control.
I wonder if they are tapped out of money and us cheap hobbyists are not getting them the revenue they expect.
From the flurry of X-mas in July and "trinket" sales, these are unprecedented for PB so I can only assume this is the case.
It would be irritating to have a clear path to completion but stopped dead due to lack of liquidity.
If they came clean and said they ran out and the project was more than they expected, some support could be found for them.
Their hesitation to say anything can lead me to think money went to areas not directly part of fulfilling the KS rewards.

Anyway, repeating myself way too often.
I blame PB because of them not providing anything new!