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 n815e wrote:
This is how I imagine the typical PB workday goes.

After stumbling into work they do a few order fulfillments and fill out paperwork. Mid- to late-morning Kevin invites everyone to watch a movie in the warehouse or some really funny youtube videos he has been bookmarking all morning.
After the videos, extended lunch.
After lunch, they sit around the conference room gaming.
Post-gaming includes cleaning up and perhaps some late afternoon order fulfillment.
If the gaming session or the movie was inspiring to Kevin, then he gets a brainstorm that means actual worktime. Wayne calls his family to say it wll be a late night.

Kevin (and others around him) have repeatedly said that he doesn't have time for gaming anymore. I'll take a moment to let that sink in...

The rest is probably accurate.

 Stormonu wrote:

 n815e wrote:
This is how I imagine the typical PB workday goes.

After stumbling into work they do a few order fulfillments and fill out paperwork. Mid- to late-morning Kevin invites everyone to watch a movie in the warehouse or some really funny youtube videos he has been bookmarking all morning.
After the videos, extended lunch.
After lunch, they sit around the conference room gaming.
Post-gaming includes cleaning up and perhaps some late afternoon order fulfillment.
If the gaming session or the movie was inspiring to Kevin, then he gets a brainstorm that means actual worktime. Wayne calls his family to say it wll be a late night.

Kevin (and others around him) have repeatedly said that he doesn't have time for gaming anymore. I'll take a moment to let that sink in...

The rest is probably accurate.

They best part is even when he played his own settings he didn't use the RAW.

...because he knew the RAI?

Thank you Alph, I so wanted to make that joke but decided not to intrude.

But yes, clearly the Kevissiah would know the RAI, so he'd never need to refer to the RAW.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Last year there was a group attempting to make a RIFTs minis game, but it fell through because Palladium is terrible to work with.

Any news on Savage Worlds: RIFTS?

Sometimes they are their own worst enemy.

Skirmish a WIP

Sometimes!?! there has not been a single situation in this kickstarter where they haven't been their own worst enemy.

ced1106 wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
Last year there was a group attempting to make a RIFTs minis game, but it fell through because Palladium is terrible to work with.

Any news on Savage Worlds: RIFTS?

That's outside my sphere of knowledge/influence.

Asterios wrote:
Does PB sound desperate here?

Licensing

Palladium is looking for licensing opportunities (and partners) for our many I.P.s. We would especially love to see licenses for Rifts®, Splicers®, Nightbane®, Heroes Unlimited, BTS, and . . . well, all our I.P.s as board games, miniature games, card games, videogames, etc. In the meanwhile, we’re excited about the upcoming adaptation of the Rifts® RPG to the Savage Worlds® game system.

I've been staying out of commenting on this thread due to my role on the Palladium Forums. However, I felt the need to clear up something here so that folks don't get the wrong idea.

Palladium has been very public in that they have been working on getting their IPs licensed since at least the mid 1990s. There has been limited progress(ie Rfts movie option has been renewed several times but not been turned into a movie yet, the Promise of Power game was released and was really good, but the platform failed to achieve commercial success, Dream Pod 9 made a series of books in support of Palladium's Macross II RPG offering . . .).

Calling the statement desperation would imply that this is something new in response to the current situation. The only thing new in that statement is the announcement of the Savage Worlds licensed Rifts product. This statement about licencing is business as usual for Palladium.

Lulz.

Jefffar wrote:
I've been staying out of commenting on this thread due to my role on the Palladium Forums. However, I felt the need to clear up something here so that folks don't get the wrong idea.

Palladium has been very public in that they have been working on getting their IPs licensed since at least the mid 1990s. There has been limited progress(ie Rfts movie option has been renewed several times but not been turned into a movie yet, the Promise of Power game was released and was really good, but the platform failed to achieve commercial success, Dream Pod 9 made a series of books in support of Palladium's Macross II RPG offering . . .).

Calling the statement desperation would imply that this is something new in response to the current situation. The only thing new in that statement is the announcement of the Savage Worlds licensed Rifts product. This statement about licencing is business as usual for Palladium.

Appreciate the position you're in here. But you've also got to understand the backer's position. Or at least those portion of backers that no longer have faith in what PB says. There's two parts.

First, the claim that they're "actively working" on the project (as per their BBB/Michigan AG responses, as well as the few times they've mentioned it in KS Updates/PBWU's, And have nothing to show for it. Like, literally. They can TELL us whatever they want, but after the past 24 months, it's hard to just take their word for it. It was just over 24 months ago, September 26th, 2013, where they were still shooting for December 2013 for full (not split wave completion), when it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know, given what happened since, that was an impossible claim when made. In addition, as Forar said less than 10 hours ago,

Days since the last update: 6 (though the last one said nothing useful about wave two)
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on all the pieces: 95 (seriously?)
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 226 (knowing that they're screwed on the figures isn't really news, we've known that for ages)

Days until the end of 2015: 80 (impossible)
Days until the end of Q1 2016: 171 (highly unlikely) [Addendum, the last date of record, no retraction or revision since]

I'll add Days since Conventional Forces stats were due: 108

Secondly, there has seemed to be an increased uptick in "flash sale" items this year, over an extended time. Sure, Palladium have often been fairly prodigious in their sales, but they've ramped it up significantly, with Christmas in July starting June 25th, running through mid July, immediately into Flash Sales that continued for eleven weeks, culminating in an almost clearance level sale of RRT stuff (30-50% off). And there'll probably be another sale in six weeks, and then a month and a half of Christmas Grab Bag spruiking. Now, the CiJ, and the Thanksgiving onward stuff are business as usual. As is the spruiking of "We have IP to license". Nothing out of the ordinary, except when seen in aggregate with everything else.

A lot of the above could be mitigated by two very simple solutions. "Show, don't tell", and "Don't wait for everything before showing backers something". They need to SHOW actual progress instead of just claiming they are "actively working on it". And they need to show backers even partial progress. The 95 days for a full breakdown thing? That's ludicrous. If one or two components are hard to pin down? Fine. Just specify those as hard to pin down. But if there's literally nothing that they can report the status on, three months after it was announced? That's a significant issue. If there's not a single sprue parts breakdown, that's again, a significant issue.

A third solution, stop treating the backers based on the actions of the minority (PB claims it's a couple dozen critics that are the problem, but while I don't think it's a majority, I do think it's more than that). When PB are open and honest, backers for the most part give them the benefit of the doubt. Sure, you can't please EVERYONE. But in an effort to not rile up the unwinnable*, they put more and more people offside. And they need to stop doing that if they want there to be a community at the end of this. There's a small minority of "haterz", a small minority of "fanbois", a small portion of vocal winnables, and a CRAPLOAD of otherwise winnable silent backers. Apathy works when you're not moving forward, until you need them to move later. Unless Palladium have written off moving past fulfillment in terms of support (and yes, some "haterz" think PB have written off fulfillment, but let's assume PB haven't), they need to do more than sit on their thumbs publically, even if they are making progress privately. Having Wave 2 eventuate, and be met with "Who gives a feth?" from a significant portion of backers will kill the game as surely as anything else. While PB definitely don't have a lack of publicity moving forward, a lot of that publicity is bad, and unless they move to change that, it'll only be diehards playing moving forward, in an industry that's fairly well saturated.

I am also a backer, if that matters.

As a moderator I am not paid by Palladium in any way nor do I enjoy a special access to them and their operations beyond those of the typical fan/consumer.

I just wanted to clear up what I saw as a potential confusion about Palladium seeking licensing options on their IPs.

Jefffar wrote:
I am also a backer, if that matters.

As a moderator I am not paid by Palladium in any way nor do I enjoy a special access to them and their operations beyond those of the typical fan/consumer.

I just wanted to clear up what I saw as a potential confusion about Palladium seeking licensing options on their IPs.

And that's fair enough, when taken as a single datapoint. It's when it's combined with all the other circumstantial data that makes people less willing to accept it in the right context. That may be unfair, but it's also the kind of thing that needs to be considered.

It's kind of like our former Prime Minister. He used the word "holocaust" to describe an economical situation in a speech. He used the word correctly, by a strict dictionary definition of the word. And people lost their minds. Because being accurate on a single point is irrelevant if it's lost in the general context of the situation. Him being correct (or PB having this not being an exception) is irrelevant, and in both cases, the party should have known their audience better and used better phrasing, else any point attempted to be made will be lost in the backlash.

Taking time out from not providing backers stuff they were due 21 months ago, after 14 weeks of selling physical product at heavily discounted sale, to add in that they also have virtual (IP) products for sale, was always going to be taken by some as a collective, and not as individual distinct issues.

I agree with Jeffar that what Rick quoted is just standard talk from Palladium. As someone who has been following them for 25 years roughly (on and off), I don't see it as anything new but rather the same as when they wanted fans to contact Jerry Bruckheimer to convince him to not just sit on his movie rights but actually make a movie. Sadly, it seems like ALL palladium game IPs are on the decline (including Robotech) and are less likely to be licensed in the future. I had hoped Robotech would break the trend of not seeing a Palladium game played in public (except at gencon) for over a decade. Unfortunately, my only demo game is the only Robotech game I've seen played (although admittedly I haven't been to the store much this year).

The Savage Worlds things definitely surprised me though. If Robotech Tactics had gone differently and I had actually gotten all my rewards remotely close to the original delivery date, I'd have jumped on it. I loved playing in the Rifts universe but liked the mechanics of it less and less as I was exposed to other more cohesive rulesets (Palladium rules were my intro to tabletop RPGs). Now? Nah, no interest until I get what I already paid for long ago. I don't want to support Palladium with another penny (whether directly or through a licensed product) until they fulfill their long overdue existing promises to me.

I'm at about halfway; agreed, they've been looking to license off their IP for years, from the movie to the N-Gage game.

However, at a cursory glance, this is new material in their usual copy/paste, at least after browsing through the last quarter worth of newsletters.

So why the sudden interest in mentioning "oh hey yeah guys, if you know someone that'd totally pay us for some juicy IP and merchandising royalty money, that'd be swell!"?

On its own, it's business as usual. Contrasted against the ongoing theory that they're either broke or at least running out of funds as the months go on, it's interesting.

I mean, they've allegedly been 'trimming the piece count' for months, if not entire quarters. Chinese factories might work cheap, but I doubt they work for free. Now it's possible they're lying about all this ongoing work (which is its own bag of worms), but unless they have the best contract ever in place, I can only assume that time, money, man hours available, or another factor will require them to either gak or get off the pot.

Or I suppose a third option would be that the work is done (so they're not hemorrhaging money) and they're just sitting on that info behind the "totes trimming piece counts!" excuse while trying to pull in the funds to get molds cut/production underway.

Obviously this isn't an exhaustive list.

How many glitter boy in flames $300 jackets do they have to sell to make wave 2 a reality?

One thing I noticed recently, during their distributor show they mentioned how they have been in business for 30 years and found that most people haven't heard of them.

If I were Palladium, I would consider that a major problem and failure on my part to get my products out there.
Their solution seems to have been to make a plea to the very people that already know them to tell their friends.

Look, I knew Palladium was poorly managed before I backed because I bothered to look around on line. I managed my own expectations of them in what I thought was a reasonable level, not only based on their history but based on my personal experience in implementing large projects. I also considered that Ninja Division didn't know what they were doing and Harmony Gold is a gak company with the laziest people in the entertainment industry running the Robotech franchise.

That being said, I'm actually amazed at how poorly managed Palladium is and how they are able to ruin everything for themselves.
There's no good reason why the communication aspect of this was handled so badly. That one thing, that would take up so little of their time, would set the tone of all the conversations, expectations and success of the game.

 n815e wrote:

If I were Palladium, I would consider that a major problem and failure on my part to get my products out there.

Therein is the problem. Palladium's only failures in their eyes are loving the fans too much, trying too hard, and trusting others too much. I agree though that this campaign took my already low expectations and dashed them completely. The glimmer of hope that the old dog had indeed learned some new tricks (like getting someone else to fetch ala Ninja Division) have long since faded. I feel like palladium is just running out the imaginary legal clock by posting vague comments about working on the project with NOTHING to show for it for the past 8 months. And, no, renders from 2 years ago don't count; the last parts breakdown was in February IIRC and who knows if that is even valid anymore given the unsubstantiated talk of changing the parts count. Since you have to read tea leaves and cast chicken bones to glean anything meaningful from Palladium's bipolar communications, I suspect they've changed or are trying to change factories and NOTHING from wave 2 is close to manufacture at this point.

It does remain sad that people whose livelihood is entirely based on communicating things through the written word, and have been doing so for over a third of a century, are so bad at it.

They seem to have a blind spot, where things can't be 'good', they have to be 'perfect', and keep focusing on that. They keep repeating "we're told to not give dates!", as though that explains their silence, but nobody sensible is asking for dates.

That update at the end of February with 5 sprue breakdown renders? Probably their best of the year. If they'd just fething do that once a month, they'd probably get a gakload less trouble from people.

For feths sake, people don't expect them to drop "oh, we're done, ship leaves port tomorrow" this week, but 7 months without tangible progress is not acceptable.

I can only imagine that if they were paying someone to work for half a year and they had nothing to show for it, they'd be pretty pissed off. Of course, given their small staff and reliance on freelancers, I doubt that happens, but the point remains; it requires being willfully oblivious to the actual issues to miss the point as hard as they are.

 Forar wrote:

They seem to have a blind spot, where things can't be 'good', they have to be 'perfect', and keep focusing on that. They keep repeating "we're told to not give dates!", as though that explains their silence, but nobody sensible is asking for dates.

That update at the end of February with 5 sprue breakdown renders? Probably their best of the year. If they'd just fething do that once a month, they'd probably get a gakload less trouble from people

That's the thing... I think the first part is just talk. It's like all the white knights that kept years ago (and, yes, it is pathetic that I can officially say that) that Palladium should just take their time and do it right instead of meeting the looming October 2013 revised "estimate"... they took their sweet time (and ours) and didn't do it right. It's just a canned response to a failure on their part.

As for the last part, I'd be fine with a monthly update that showed February update levels of detail and progress. Sadly, I think that update was cummulative since the previous summer when wave 1 went into production finally and that nothing much has been done since to actually show. It's hard to classify a few phone calls and emails a week as discernable progress but that is what I suspect Palladium is actually devoting to the project. It's like their claims of working so many hours of so many days of the week including holidays and weekends. With the actual level of output they have, they're either lying or "working" incredibly inefficiently. There is simply no other option given the multiyear (for Robotech) and multidecade (for RPGs) results.

Jefffar wrote:
I am also a backer, if that matters.

As a moderator I am not paid by Palladium in any way nor do I enjoy a special access to them and their operations beyond those of the typical fan/consumer.

I just wanted to clear up what I saw as a potential confusion about Palladium seeking licensing options on their IPs.

 warboss wrote:
I agree with Jeffar that what Rick quoted is just standard talk from Palladium. As someone who has been following them for 25 years roughly (on and off), I don't see it as anything new but rather the same as when they wanted fans to contact Jerry Bruckheimer to convince him to not just sit on his movie rights but actually make a movie. Sadly, it seems like ALL palladium game IPs are on the decline (including Robotech) and are less likely to be licensed in the future. I had hoped Robotech would break the trend of not seeing a Palladium game played in public (except at gencon) for over a decade. Unfortunately, my only demo game is the only Robotech game I've seen played (although admittedly I haven't been to the store much this year).

The Savage Worlds things definitely surprised me though. If Robotech Tactics had gone differently and I had actually gotten all my rewards remotely close to the original delivery date, I'd have jumped on it. I loved playing in the Rifts universe but liked the mechanics of it less and less as I was exposed to other more cohesive rulesets (Palladium rules were my intro to tabletop RPGs). Now? Nah, no interest until I get what I already paid for long ago. I don't want to support Palladium with another penny (whether directly or through a licensed product) until they fulfill their long overdue existing promises to me.

I disagree, this whole aspect of theirs is new, look at weekly updates in the past there is no mention of this anywhere, it could be they just lost a potential IP licensing holder? it could be they wish they did the d20 thing? it could be no one wants to work with them? it could be their funds are extremely low and they might not even be able to pay the rent soon, all in all it comes down to 61 days, nuff said.

but what it all comes down to is PB has hit the downward curve, less and less (if any) people are getting into RPG's (PB's bread and butter) PB realizes this, and they realize they realized it to late, i'm sure sales are dropping like a rock and who can blame that with very little new product hitting the shelves and a declining fan base and RPG players, and lets face it how many copies of a book do you need?

Asterios wrote:

but what it all comes down to is PB has hit the downward curve, less and less (if any) people are getting into RPG's (PB's bread and butter) PB realizes this, and they realize they realized it to late, i'm sure sales are dropping like a rock and who can blame that with very little new product hitting the shelves and a declining fan base and RPG players, and lets face it how many copies of a book do you need?

In order for sales to drop like a rock, they need to be high first. If you have a source for that, please share it. Otherwise, I'll go with the more logical stagnant to steadily declining option. And, if you're Jorel, you need a half dozen copies or more of a single book...

 warboss wrote:

Asterios wrote:

but what it all comes down to is PB has hit the downward curve, less and less (if any) people are getting into RPG's (PB's bread and butter) PB realizes this, and they realize they realized it to late, i'm sure sales are dropping like a rock and who can blame that with very little new product hitting the shelves and a declining fan base and RPG players, and lets face it how many copies of a book do you need?

In order for sales to drop like a rock, they need to be high first. If you have a source for that, please share it. Otherwise, I'll go with the more logical stagnant to steadily declining option. And, if you're Jorel, you need a half dozen copies or more of a single book...

well I never did say their sales were high in the first place, just that they are on a downward curve, from meddling to mediocre or worse.

This wasn't just a new product to sell, this was an entirely new and revitalizing source of income for them.

The average miniatures gamer spends more on products than the average RPG gamer.
Instead of one person buying an occasional book, one person would buy hundreds of dollars in miniatures.

This would have been sales on a level they have never experienced before.

 n815e wrote:
This wasn't just a new product to sell, this was an entirely new and revitalizing source of income for them.

The average miniatures gamer spends more on products than the average RPG gamer.
Instead of one person buying an occasional book, one person would buy hundreds of dollars in miniatures.

This would have been sales on a level they have never experienced before.

I think they did have an inkling of that which is why the current rumor is that they spent the kickstarter money that was supposed to go to wave 2 to buy dead retail stock of wave 1 instead. What they apparently didn't count on due to their RPG experience is that their massive delays, poor management/communication, overly complex sprue layouts, and misleading of backers as to the true state of the project would have a negative effect on both the tone of the community as well as sales. They'd been doing that on the rpg side for decades with only a very slow decline so were likely surprised that it would kill a minis game before it had a chance to grow.

 warboss wrote:

 n815e wrote:
This wasn't just a new product to sell, this was an entirely new and revitalizing source of income for them.

The average miniatures gamer spends more on products than the average RPG gamer.
Instead of one person buying an occasional book, one person would buy hundreds of dollars in miniatures.

This would have been sales on a level they have never experienced before.

I think they did have an inkling of that which is why the current rumor is that they spent the kickstarter money that was supposed to go to wave 2 to buy dead retail stock of wave 1 instead. What they apparently didn't count on due to their RPG experience is that their massive delays, poor management/communication, overly complex sprue layouts, and misleading of backers as to the true state of the project would have a negative effect on both the tone of the community as well as sales. They'd been doing that on the rpg side for decades with only a very slow decline so were likely surprised that it would kill a minis game before it had a chance to grow.

Their big mistake was comparing Miniature wargamers to RPGers, while slow turn around and such may be acceptable to RPGers it is not acceptable to Miniature wargamers.

My best guesses of the PB perspective:

- Tabletop is a new thing to them, out of their comfort zone, so as much RPG publishing method they can inject into the process the better they feel.
- The China manufacture they probably felt forced into, probably felt the value for money for the tooling was poor (How bad is printing costs in comparison?). Also the amount of product they figured they needed to sell to get return on the investment (which I feel caused an error in creating too much retail stock).
- When things are less than perfect... no one needs to know UNLESS someone else can be blamed. Standard operating procedure.
- Kevin being the only decision making point is subject to all the wants and prejudices of a human being who is a bit on the needy side and takes his toys and goes home when people are less than receptive to his "fabulous" work.

PB really has been a small fry in the scheme of things and rarely take long-term steps to try to succeed for more.
Short term thinking has always been the Albatross around their neck and this is why they can pretty much be ignored on most things.
The handling of the RRT KS is enough to show they are willing to write-off KS as a method of product launch.

As a customer, they have only one thing I want: Robotech license for gaming.
I am pretty much over RPG for quite some time now.
Rifts was of interest to me for a time, the guys who made Shadowrun for PC could have aced this for them, too bad they are busy making BATTLETECH.
Actually, if they completed BATTLETECH, what if they extend the engine just a tiny bit and make Robotech?
Explore THAT why don't they.
This "fan-base" is almost literally dying off as the years pass (started 1985 for RT), really only those almost 40+ would remember this show and is getting long in the tooth.
There can be some younger folk who may stumble across it as a classic and develop an interest I must allow.

I am afraid they think wave 2 is "too costly" and with the glut of wave 1 starter boxes they feel that view is justified.
Shipping has stuck in their craw as well so even less incentive to get product to ship.
So... going with what is natural to them, they are trying to find the cheapest way possible.
My fear is that they will feel it is better to avoid doing it all together and are waiting for an appropriate "crisis" to present itself.

So, how can we convince them that wave2 and wave1 product combined will bring them revenue rather than keeping the dollars they have now? (a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush!).
With their lack of marketing, late in coming "plans" for gaming support, slow tweaking of rules, it may be a self fulfilling prophesy that RRT will fail and they will "regret" not just taking the money and pretending working on the project for the next decade and then quietly dropping it.

Since nothing is happening on so many fronts to do with this, I will probably do what PB wants me to do: walk away from wave 2.
Paradoxically, spend your money! Many worthless trinkets in the works! That other stuff we will get right on that when we are done being fired up with all these sales!

Yep, I still care but really trying not to.

I think the big problem for backers, is that PB may have latched on to the Kickstarter loophole.

As Talizvar (and others) have said, PB may be at a point where it's too costly to move forward. Admitting they can't complete it, is corporate suicide. Even if they're only required to pay pro-rata on the BattleCry, they only account for ~$900,000 of the total pledged (6500 listed in the pledge bars on the front page of the KS * $130US = ~850K, add in another 50K of Pledge Manager addons). As I mentioned in a prior post, depending on how you calculate it, it's anywhere from 25-40% of that outstanding. So, the ~500K from addons, plus the 225-360K from outstanding Battlecries puts it at 725-860K owed backers.

For a company that doesn't appear to have that kind of liquidity, that's simply not an option. First, it'd kill the company. Second, it'd kill Kevin's reputation. I feel that the latter is more important to him. Anyways, with that not being an option, and them possibly not having the funds to do so, the obviously glaring loophole gives them an out. That if they're "actively working" on the project, it hasn't failed to deliver (and triggering the owing of refunds), it's just "late". And as long as it continues to be "late" and not "cancelled", they're able to skate on borrowed time.

While writing this post, I did a little research, and there's a small possibility PB may just be running out the clock, looking for September 9th 2018 (or perhaps May 21st 2018) as their out. I'm no lawyer, but a quick search found that the statute of limitations on wire/mail fraud in the United States is five years. We're already more than two years into that. I don't know if that's a plan, but at this point, given the situation they're in, the lack of progress and the backwards movement communication wise, While PB occasionally surprise me in their inability to meet the exceedingly low expectations that I expect from them, I doubt anything at this point would shock me.

I freely admit I could be wrong, either on the situation or on the legalistics. And if anyone wants to show how on the latter, I'm all for it. On the former, only PB can answer that. And they're not communicating. Talking, yes. Communicating, no. Contrary to PB's claims in the BBB/AG responses, there is a difference.

They're changing the subject. It's like if someone borrowed something from you and promised to give it back but it's been years since they promised and everytime you ask them about it they change the subject to how the weather is or something else they'd like to borrow from you. That's palladium style communication.

Longtime Palladium fan here.

Not at all surprised at what a disaster this has become. PB is an old school, small market pen and paper RPG company. They were wildly inexperienced with the miniature market/scene, and woefully underprepared for such a successful KS and all the expectations it brought.

It's a shame because I really like the RRT mini's and the rules are pretty good. For a first shot at the big time wargaming scene, they did alright with the actual product itself...however...the KS disaster, poor customer service, and total lack of communication dwarfs the actual quality of the product.

Hopefully Palladium finds a way to redeem themselves, fix their bad rep, and continue to improve an already good product.

BRB gonna go buy that slick new Glitterboy mouse pad now...