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Lets review their average lateness;

Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide
Scheduled: Fall 1998
Released: May 15, 2001

Armageddon Unlimited (Minion War: Part 4)
Scheduled: March 14, 2006 PR – December 2006
Released: February 11, 2011

Mutant Underground
Announced: April 2000
Released: February 24, 2003

Book 11: Eastern Territory 3
Scheduled: Spring 1999
Released: April 10, 2001

Mysteries of Magic—Book One: The Heart of Magic
Scheduled: Summer or Fall 2003
Released: September 25, 2009
of course book 2 and 3 were never mentioned again

Book 4: Skraypers (originally Scrapers and Scraypers)
Announced: January 1995
Released: May 24, 1998

Book Five: The Anvil Galaxy
Announced: Summer 1998
Released: May 20, 2002

Book Six: The Three Galaxies 6
Announced: 1998
Released: March 28, 2003

Book 10: Hades—Pits of Hell (Minion War: Part 1) 7
Announced: June 11, 2004
Released: August 20, 2007

Book 11: Dyval—Hell Unleashed (Minion War: Part 2)
Announced: "Coming in 2006"
Released: March 31, 2009

Book 12: Dimensional Outbreak (Minion War: Part 3)
Announced:"Coming in 2006"
Released: March 9, 2010

Book 13: Fleets of the Three Galaxies (originally Phase World Spacecraft)
Announced: November 2, 2006 PR – "Coming 2007"
Released: July 27, 2009

Book 14: Thundercloud Galaxy
Announced: "Planned for 2009"
Released: April 26, 2011

Heroes of the Megaverse: A Rifts Dimension Book and Minion War Crossover
Announced: April 19, 2006 PR
Released: September 15, 2010

Shemarrian Nation
Announced: February 8, 2006 PR – "Slated for 2006"
Released: April 24, 2009

Vampires
Announced: December 4, 2009 PR – "Planned for the first half of 2010"
Released: April 11, 2013

Book 24: China 1—The Yama Kings
Announced: Rifter 12 (Oct 00) p.10 – Late 2001
Released: January 26, 2004

Book 31: Triax Two (originally Triax: 109 P.A.)
Announced: December 2, 2005 PR – "Slated for 2006"
Released: April 28, 2010

Book 32: Lemuria 10
Announced: 2008
Released: April 5, 2012

Book 33: Northern Gun One (originally Northern Gun Sourcebook)
Announced: 2007
Released: October 24, 2013

Book 34: Northern Gun Two
Announced: September 29, 2011 PR – "In development"
Released: May 16, 2014

Book 35: Megaverse in Flames (Minion War: Part 5)
Announced: "Coming in 2006"
Released: August 9, 2014
this one works out to 8 years

Rifts Chaos Earth: A Complete RPG
Announced: Jan 98
Released: June 24, 2003

The New Generation Sourcebook
Announced: "Coming in 2008"
Released: December 2, 2011

Beyond the Supernatural, Second Edition RPG
Announced: Early 1999
Released: January 21, 2005
the remaining books for this incomplete rpg have never been released



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now how about still never released;

Palladium Fantasy RPG: Land of the Damned 3—The Citadel (originally The Bleakness)
Announced: Fall 2001

Rifts Sourcebook: Sovietski
Announced: March 14, 2006

Rifts Sourcebook: Voodoo (originally Voodoo and the Spirit World)
Announced: March 14, 2006

Rifts World Book: Deep South—Dark Woods
Announced: June 1, 2006

Rifts World Book: Deep South—Delta Blues
Announced: March 14, 2006

Atorian Empire
Announced: "Coming in 2001"

United Worlds of Warlock
Announced: "Coming in 2003"

Africa 2: The Legacy of the Four Horsemen
Announced: "Coming in 2001"

Australia 2: Mystic Australia
Announced: Spring 1999

Australia 3: Dreamtime
Announced: Summer 1999

New Generation Freedom Fighters
Announced: December 31, 2009

Spacecraft Compendium / Book of Spaceships
Announced: "In development" for 2009

Mechanoid(s) Space
Announced: Jan 98
this is the biggie; 18 years

Warpath: Urban Jungle RPG 4
Announced: February 8, 2006

Rifts World Book: New Navy (originally Underseas Two)
Announced: May 14, 2010

Robotech: Expeditionary Force Marines Sourcebook One (originally United-Earth Expeditionary Force Marines)
Announced: May 22, 2009

Couple of things to point out there on that list.

The UEEF marines sourcebook is out as of this fall.

Books 33 and 34 were the only two previously crowdfunded products in Palladium history (crowdfunded on their own site incidentally) and while delayed both did appear.

Recon, a miniatures wargame that Palladium bought any turned into an RPG in the 1980s promised a new RPG version cross compatible with the standard Palladium system in the 'next 6 months' in my 1989 copy. My understanding is that project has been through the hands of several authors (including Kevin's now ex-wife) and different conceptualizations but has never done better than coming up for pre-orders before sinking back below the radar.

I'm pointing this out to show that:

1 Palladium has a 100% record of being late but complete on Crowdfunded products before RTT.

2 Kevin has a habit of talking about projects very early (sometimes at the conceptual stage) in the development cycle which results in a lot of projects missing their original delivery dates by a considerable margin. In part this is due to the weird rules distributors for some of his products force on him (apparently they buy 6 months in advance so if he doesn'thype a product at least 6 months before he releases it they wwon't buy it when it comes out) but mostly its because he gets excited about a product but can't reliably predict when it will be completed.

How much did NG1 and 2 draw in? Across how many backers?

Wait, don't answer, let's Google it.

According to PB themselves, here, NG1 drew in ~$27,030 from 353 gamers.

NG2, noted here, drew in $25,535 across 284 people.

Even ignoring the 'omg I'm going to explode if I don't tell you about this!' early announcements, they took a combined 52 grand or so (give or take, I have no idea what cuts might've been from credit cards or paypal or whatever) from less than 650 backers (with overlap). They were due out that year (Summer and Fall respectively), meaning NG1 was around a year late, and NG2 around a year and a half late, if we're charitable with what constitutes "summer", etc. RRT is now over 2 years late (optimistic estimates for full delivery in the 2.5-3 years late range), so hey, they learned that crowdfunding really does mean not needing to give a gak about what we backers think or say!

So around 5-15% of the backers contributed roughly 3-4% of the amount of cash the RRT crowd did. Not to show disrespect to those who helped make those books happen, merely pointing out that using their last two campaigns as evidence of them getting things done is to equate the 3 as somehow comparable, whereas even combining those 2 books into a single "PB's Last Crowdfunding Endeavor" still makes it a rounding error compared to the contributions made here.

Kevin's long standing inability to keep things close to the vest when they're mere glints in his eye isn't relevant. As per ND, the models exist. PB already made wave one, they're not babes lost in the woods anymore. I'm sure it's difficult, time consuming, and frustrating, but they don't get to hide behind 'omg this is so new and terrifying!' anymore.

Bluntly, they need to gak or get off the pot. It's been hours, nobody buys that they're struggling with all their might, despite the occasional gasp and groan emitted from within.

Jefffar wrote:

I'm pointing this out to show that:

1 Palladium has a 100% record of being late but complete on Crowdfunded products before RTT.

2 Kevin has a habit of talking about projects very early (sometimes at the conceptual stage) in the development cycle which results in a lot of projects missing their original delivery dates by a considerable margin. In part this is due to the weird rules distributors for some of his products force on him (apparently they buy 6 months in advance so if he doesn'thype a product at least 6 months before he releases it they wwon't buy it when it comes out) but mostly its because he gets excited about a product but can't reliably predict when it will be completed.

NG1 was a few weeks away from being done when crowdfunded... and took around a year to come out. NG2 was a month or two out supposedly when crowdfunding... and took around two years. Those products were not "very early" in the development cycle but rather Palladium was flat out clueless as to their actual status and the effort they were willing to devote to getting it done just like with Robotech Tactics and the infamous 98% done advertised on the kickstarter. Having a few weeks turn into a year is simply a failure at multiple levels at Palladium and no where else. Other companies have to deal with the same "weird rules" of the distributors yet they don't routinely as a matter of course have release dates that are MULTIPLE YEARS off from their advertised release dates. Distributors didn't force Kevin Siembieda to start advertising Lemuria in the 1990's when it came out around 2012. There may be the occasional title that ends up vaporware or years late with other companies but with Palladium that level of incompetence in project management is routine and the standard. In the past five years (and I only say five years because I stopped following releases for years before that), I can think of only one "book" that actually came out within a year of its first advertised release date and that was the Dead Reign "book" (and I put that in quotes because it was 32 pages which qualifies it by page count as a pamphlet as well) that they said nothing about until it was ready to go to print.

Also, Palladium does NOT have a 100% late but complete rate for crowdfunding. There are over a dozen products in wave two that are NOT complete. If you count up the individual SKUs (both RPG and minis), they're only around 50% "late but complete".

You seem reasonable from your posts here and in the past with your moderation on the megaversal forums (unlike Comrade Commissar Ruiz) so I don't want the above to seem like I'm trying to discourage you from posting or trying to jump down your throat.. but the level of suck that Palladium has created with this product is unfortunately much greater than your post indicates and the blame lands squarely at the feet of Palladium. They continue to compound the problem by ignoring it.

Can someone list PB's output for 2013, 2014 and 2015?

 Alpharius wrote:
Can someone list PB's output for 2013, 2014 and 2015?

This site might help although it looks like it was last updated in February 2015 (kind of like Robotech Kickstarter backers!) but gives you a good indication (assuming the dates are correct) of previous years and I quoted/linked their 2015 "goals" as well below. I've spoilered it because it's long winded and this post took more effort than palladium has publicly put into the entire Robotech Kickstarter cummulatively in the past 6 months.



TL;DR

Right now, we have 22 books in development, and that does not include getting Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) and Wave One products released to our backers and stores around the world, nor the massive number of items that are part of the RRT Wave Two release coming later in 2015.

ZERO robotech kickstarter wave two products out of the "massive number" came out and three out of "22 books in development" made it out the door in 2015.

Warboss,

You seem to have missed my qualifier referring to crowdfunding projects before RTT.

The Lemuria announced in the 1990s was actually cancelled before it was published. The more recent version of Lemuria was actually a completely new product with the same name, so dating it back to the 1990s isn't accurate. The Lemuria book as produced has a 4 year (2008 to 2012) development time frame, which seems pretty typical of the works that reach fruition.

Some more clarification on the 6 months figure. This isn't a target number but part of their operations. If they aren't talking about their products at least 6 months prior to release, they don't feel that they will have the day 1 sales necessary to cover the cost of producing the item. Back in the 90's, when they were releasing books almost monthly, there was a real danger that if they didn't start chatting up the product early, the distributors wouldn't pick it up for several months after release.

If there was a delay or a cancellation it didn't matter as much as something else was close to being ready anyway and could take it's place in the release order. But that meant that as some products might get pushed ahead (For example, Rifts World Book 12 was released after Rifts World Book 16) there had to be chatter about them as well to generate orders.

Nowadays, with a much longer average development time per book this isn't necessary, but the habit has stayed.

Combine this with Kevin's habit of getting really excited about ideas and penchant for hyperbole we get the issue with over promising and over promoting that has been repeatedly noted in this thread.

I'm not going to say Palladium's record of publishing in a timely fashion isn't bad (I did bring up an item that has been outstanding longer than anything else on the list). I was providing some detail as to what are the mechanisms behind the delays seen in the list above.

I don't doubt that Kevin sincerely wants to bring everything on his to do list to fulfillment. I don't doubt he wants to deliver everything we've paid for. In my experience of being a customer of Palladium for more than 25 years is that the issues are related to transitioning from concept to finished product rather than some of the mustache twirling villainy I've seen ascribed to him in this thread.

Jefffar wrote:
Warboss,

You seem to have missed my qualifier referring to crowdfunding projects before RTT.

Missed? Nah... I just prefer to fairly evaluate their (lack of) completion instead of particularly specific cherry picking especially considering that the Robotech apple was concurrent with two of the three previous orange RPG kickstarters.

Jefffar wrote:

I don't doubt that Kevin sincerely wants to bring everything on his to do list to fulfillment. I don't doubt he wants to deliver everything we've paid for. In my experience of being a customer of Palladium for more than 25 years is that the issues are related to transitioning from concept to finished product rather than some of the mustache twirling villainy I've seen ascribed to him in this thread.

At this point, his original intentions (as well as 98% of everything else told to us) are almost meaningless after almost 3 years. At this point, what matters is his insistence on NOT fulfilling his production and communication obligations despite multiple promises to do so. His responses come off as empty, meaningless, petulent, petty, and spiteful because we don't appreciate his supposed super double secret efforts ignoring the fact that he hasn't shown any discernable progress since February. You could describe the fanbase's reactions to his public inaction on this KS as such as well but Palladium is setting the tone for the discussion, not the other way around. Palladium has had dozens of opportunties to improve relations (including the much publicized and ultimately pointless "restart" of the discussion) and yet almost every time they've chosen not to do anything meaningful but rather just double down on the mistakes of the past. They could be offering refunds to make up for the fact that they've massively failed the fanbase on the project... but they haven't. They could have been open and honest (without rushing to play the blame game like they're wont to do in the past) about the issues and used the backers to catch issues with both the models and the rules... but they haven't. They could have done the necessary legwork in the first place to make sure that the KS campaign wasn't 98% smoke and mirrors... but they didn't. Everything they do is seeming for their own ultra short term benefit with no real thought as to the reprecussions. Backers are responding fairly to Palladium's mutliple failures regarding this project. Backers didn't fail palladium but rather Palladium failed its backers.

As backers, we're out of the loop. The only thing we can judge Palladium on are their actions (or in this case more accurately their inaction). There is that old quote about success being 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. Publicly, we only see that first 10% which is why the project post funding has been as "successful" as it has been by the only metrics we have access to. If we had put 10% of the money down that we did, I suppose that would be fair but we instead funded the project over 1400%. The backers did their job quite well. The same can't be said of Palladium currently.

But you've got to remember, PB and KS being completely historically incompetent, to a defender, is actually a mitigating, not aggravating circumstance.

Besides, PB and KS only care about their fans. Someone who has an issue with how PB and KS do business aren't fans. And, therefore, don't count.

Merijeek wrote:
But you've got to remember, PB and KS being completely historically incompetent, to a defender, is actually a mitigating, not aggravating circumstance.

Despite disagreeing with him on most points, I don't really see the blind fanaticism that one (decreasingly) finds on the megaversal forums from fans nor the North Korean style vindictive reaction to the truth that you find in NMI's moderation. I think he rather just has more hope in the company and their efforts than their actions have actually warranted in 2015.

Or he is here to soft-peddle because the opposite hasn't worked.

And, really, 2015? Should probably include 2013 and 2014....

Just because he isn't a shrieking cultist doesn't mean he isn't a happy supporter. The last KS update had 27 likes after all, even if it managed to both say nothing an yet still contain a blatant lie - even if it wasn't actually a lie until a week later.

I meant to ask for RPG books that PB has put out in 2013, 2014 and 2015.

They've got to be busy doing something, right?

...right?!?

 Alpharius wrote:
I meant to ask for RPG books that PB has put out in 2013, 2014 and 2015.

They've got to be busy doing something, right?

...right?!?

3 out of 22 in 2015... 3-4 in 2014 and iirc 2-3 in 2013. Apparently two dice bags and embroidered jackets take precedence.

That's because they're Easy Money(c)(r)(tm). All they need to do is let someone else do the work and take their cut.

You know, just like Robotech Tactics.

 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I meant to ask for RPG books that PB has put out in 2013, 2014 and 2015.

They've got to be busy doing something, right?

...right?!?

3 out of 22 in 2015... 3-4 in 2014 and iirc 2-3 in 2013. Apparently two dice bags and embroidered jackets take precedence.

Don't forget the Malcontent dice that Mike was working to get done, that they decided to co-opt once they realized demand was there.

Oh, wait. Simplest fething thing, a known market, bugger all work needed, infrastructure to do it already in place, and given what they're charging for the current ones, likely a reasonably profitable thing.

And it would have been a nice stopgap thing. But I guess 15+ months isn't enough time in Siembeda-World (quick search put it at the end of September last year that Mike ran the drive).

I did mine regardless....

I'm pretty sure I saw some dice like that last time I was in an adult store.

So then it is agreed that if they could not meet their own expectations, how in creation can they meet ours?

Yeah, all you out there start the "Ha, ya foolz, PB always fethed-up, ya get what you dezerve!!"
I still maintain we were blackmailed into it for Robotech from PB or nothing and the Ninja Division bait and switch.

Looking at their history, approximately publication occurred 3-4 years past promised date.
We are on track?

http://www.animemaru.com/harmony-gold-to-adapt-macross-delta-as-robotech-spin-off/

Harmony Gold is Roboteching Macross Delta this summer. WTF? Here is a link to Episode 1 of the Macross version.

https://kissanime.to/Anime/Macross-Delta/Episode-001?id=121544

edit: As pointed out by Thane below, this is probably a hoax/joke.

Based on the other articles that appears to be a satire website, so no reason for yet another scale poll

 ThaneCawdor wrote:
Based on the other articles that appears to be a satire website, so no reason for yet another scale poll

That's a good catch. I didn't bother reading the rest of the blog.

 warboss wrote:
http://www.animemaru.com/harmony-gold-to-adapt-macross-delta-as-robotech-spin-off/

Harmony Gold is Roboteching Macross Delta this summer. WTF? Here is a link to Episode 1 of the Macross version.

https://kissanime.to/Anime/Macross-Delta/Episode-001?id=121544

edit: As pointed out by Thane below, this is probably a hoax/joke.

It's interesting to see what they did with the mech designs, however the singing dance number musical combat was so dumb it made my brain hurt.

Jeffar, are what point would he become the moustache twirling villan?
When he keeps exhibiting the same behaviour no matter the effect on his customers?
When the amount of money becomes quite significant?
When years from now they're still working on wave 2?
Willing incompetence is not an excuse.

OK, trying to go through and figure out what's been delivered and what we're waiting on so I can file with my AG in Washington State. Does someone have a quick summary? I just found my breakdown of what I pledged for.

Thanks!

Just a sidenote on the BBB, complaints there can, and generally are bought off by businesses that receive them.

If Palladium does indeed have an F rating with them it could be another indicator that money is in short supply.

csimian wrote:
OK, trying to go through and figure out what's been delivered and what we're waiting on so I can file with my AG in Washington State. Does someone have a quick summary? I just found my breakdown of what I pledged for.

Thanks!

Here is the original Wave 1/Wave 2 announcement from nearly two years ago.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/734271

That details what has been delivered and what remains missing.

I think it is more of a matter of Palladium not being a member and not caring to.
In reality, it doesn't do a whole lot to damage them.

 Swabby wrote:
Just a sidenote on the BBB, complaints there can, and generally are bought off by businesses that receive them.

That is a bit of a nasty allegation.
"Pay us money or else the world will see how bad a business you are!" <cue curling moustache and evil laugh>

Well, with a little research, that statement seems correct:

Actual example of nailing a publication for criticizing them.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110919/14221016016/criticize-better-business-bureau-theyll-pull-your-accreditation.shtml

An outline of the conflict of interest and how useless the process is (which I can attest)
http://referencedesigner.com/blog/better-business-bureau-a-useless-institution/545/

The ABC investigation "Pay to play".
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/business-bureau-best-ratings-money-buy/story?id=12123843

Bloody guys are no better than PB!

BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

I've never seen it as a 'magic bullet', but they're at least well known enough that it seems like a fine, low effort addition to the 'attempts at resolution' paper trail.

If I were to pursue something, it'd probably be on my checklist just to say I'd done it (and have the email/whatever in the pile).

There's no massive benefit for doing so, but there's basically no drawbacks either, as long as one isn't a massive idiot while submitting (ie; stick to the facts, remain calm/civil, etc), but someone ranting at length is going to harm their own cause regardless of who they're speaking to.

When I called and talked to Chuck I was polite but noted my displeasure clearly. It's entirely possible to disagree with someone or a business without being a massive donkey cave about it.