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That timeline on the site Mike linked to is very telling (why didn't you just link to the english version, like http://miniset.net/cfp/kickstarter-1295579858?language=en?)

With every orange dot being an update (though not necessarily a relevant one), it's easy to see how since last October there's been longer and longer gaps between communications. Unfortunately, it doesn't show how uninformative the 2015 updates have been...

Merijeek wrote:

 Forar wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Thats great, but I was specifically referencing the mention that the calls are still outstanding. Your most recent update is more than 2 years old. Do we have confirmation that these are still not complete?

That's great? As I said, that's what I found with a little cursory google'ing. Unless someone wants to pay my hourly rate, I'm not putting hours into a fully cited endeavour.

If only there were some way someone, perhaps a moderator of their forums, could check into this? Certainly at least a few of the people making noise ON THE FORUMS could be contacted by someone on those forums.

Crazy thought, I know. I wonder if they have some sort of person who does some sort of work there, I think the term is moderator, who could look into that?

Or perhaps the person who claims that something is happening (on the Facebook group) could provide links to it so that someone, like myself,( who is not a moderator of that group), could find it easily and verify their claim.

Yes, it's called "argumentum ad nausem", and was quite successful back in the days before people knew how the Internet worked.

But, hey, there's no evidence that Simbieda would EVER lie about whether or not something had been done. So, you're clearly the one arguing from a point of strength here.

Jefffar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:

 Forar wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Thats great, but I was specifically referencing the mention that the calls are still outstanding. Your most recent update is more than 2 years old. Do we have confirmation that these are still not complete?

That's great? As I said, that's what I found with a little cursory google'ing. Unless someone wants to pay my hourly rate, I'm not putting hours into a fully cited endeavour.

If only there were some way someone, perhaps a moderator of their forums, could check into this? Certainly at least a few of the people making noise ON THE FORUMS could be contacted by someone on those forums.

Crazy thought, I know. I wonder if they have some sort of person who does some sort of work there, I think the term is moderator, who could look into that?

Or perhaps the person who claims that something is happening (on the Facebook group) could provide links to it so that someone, like myself,( who is not a moderator of that group), could find it easily and verify their claim.

Actually no matter how annoying people seem to get by being asked to prove an assumption it does not invalidate the question. Just like people who say 97% of the scientists say Global Warming is a real thing caused by man.....then you investigate the poll and how that number came into being and you see how full of crap the poll is and how reality is much closer to 50/50.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your best bet would be to go directly to PB's FOTM forums and get an answer from the most likely place you'll find to find fans that would pay to talk to Kevin S.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Actually no matter how annoying people seem to get by being asked to prove an assumption it does not invalidate the question. Just like people who say 97% of the scientists say Global Warming is a real thing caused by man.....then you investigate the poll and how that number came into being and you see how full of crap the poll is and how reality is much closer to 50/50.

you notice how nobody mentions that this isn't the first global warming of the planet and it has happened several times before man even showed up in the picture? Global warming is a natural occurance of this planet and will occur whether man was here or not, and lets not forget a massive Volcanic Eruption as has been seen by mankind several times, spews more hazardous chemicals and pollutants into the air then man does.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Just like people who say 97% of the scientists say Global Warming is a real thing caused by man.....then you investigate the poll and how that number came into being and you see how full of crap the poll is and how reality is much closer to 50/50.

... you really do pick some of the strangest analogies.

I have a lot of weird friends

[REDACTED]

Well there's a wonderful barometer of opinion right there.

I thought this was a miniatures gaming forum.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Don't you start bringing real science into this. Nor mention the Little Ice Age. Or Krakatoa. Nope. Global warming is 100% man-made. Yup.

John, can you maybe take the tinfoil hat consipiracies to the off topic forum? Unless global warming is secretly caused by the Robotech Masters or the SDF-1's reflex furnance overheating somewhere in the Pacific, I can't think of how it fits in this thread.

We are 111 pages into the new Palladium threads, and you're not picking up when something was obviously tongue in cheek?
____

redacted the nonsense. Sorry.

Yeah, but this thread is bad enough without extra LULZ posts.

So sure, a KEEP IT ON TOPIC suggestion is more than OK.

We do, as noted, have an Off Topic Forum for all that other...fun stuff.

So, Forar, how many days until the 1,000 day anniversary of the successful funding of the KS? Are we planning some sort of celebration to mark this milestone? Instead of all the products supposedly starting manufacturing within 40 days of the KS funding, we'll be at 1,000 days with roughly half the products still not ready to make. That's a 2,500% delay! Surely that deserves recognition even by Palladium standards.

 warboss wrote:
So, Forar, how many days until the 1,000 day anniversary of the successful funding of the KS? Are we planning some sort of celebration to mark this milestone? Instead of all the products supposedly starting manufacturing within 40 days of the KS funding, we'll be at 1,000 days with roughly half the products still not ready to make. That's a 2,500% delay! Surely that deserves recognition even by Palladium standards.

Now that would be good to know! I might be able to have Nodal Wars ready for it depending on the date.

Perhaps they'll have a sort of millennial sale. Special RRT surprise packages? Another Note From Kevin telling us that we are not forgotten, good things are coming but we can't know what, they are working hard, he'll write that it is all up to us to make the game successful and we'll get more details in a week.

 warboss wrote:
So, Forar, how many days until the 1,000 day anniversary of the successful funding of the KS? Are we planning some sort of celebration to mark this milestone? Instead of all the products supposedly starting manufacturing within 40 days of the KS funding, we'll be at 1,000 days with roughly half the products still not ready to make. That's a 2,500% delay! Surely that deserves recognition even by Palladium standards.

Easily done on this site.

Given a finish date of May 21st, 2013, adding 1000 days ends in a result of Monday, 15th of February, 2016.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 warboss wrote:
So, Forar, how many days until the 1,000 day anniversary of the successful funding of the KS? Are we planning some sort of celebration to mark this milestone? Instead of all the products supposedly starting manufacturing within 40 days of the KS funding, we'll be at 1,000 days with roughly half the products still not ready to make. That's a 2,500% delay! Surely that deserves recognition even by Palladium standards.

Easily done on this site.

Given a finish date of May 21st, 2013, adding 1000 days ends in a result of Monday, 15th of February, 2016.

I can shoot for 1000 but I think more realistically I'll make 1200 days.

Just after Valentine's Day!? *gasp*

I wonder when their rights to the IP expire this time? Of all the assertions that have been leveled against them, that one I find most compelling.

If their right to even do the work is lost next year, then that's an awfully short clock to run out before 'oops, sorry, we CAN'T do it, legally'.

Not that it'd change the expectation for them to make good on things anyway (refund demands and other product or whatever), but hey, a way to turn some of those cores laying around the warehouse into something other than dust collectors!

According to Wikipedia, they had the license from 1986 to 1995, and reacquired the license in 2007. Though their own Website claims it was in 2008. Looks like their Shadow Chronicles book was released in Sept 2008, so obviously they had it before then.

Sooooo, if they got another decade long contract, and that thing runs out in 2017....

 Forar wrote:
Just after Valentine's Day!? *gasp*

I wonder when their rights to the IP expire this time? Of all the assertions that have been leveled against them, that one I find most compelling.

If their right to even do the work is lost next year, then that's an awfully short clock to run out before 'oops, sorry, we CAN'T do it, legally'.

Not that it'd change the expectation for them to make good on things anyway (refund demands and other product or whatever), but hey, a way to turn some of those cores laying around the warehouse into something other than dust collectors!

According to Wikipedia, they had the license from 1986 to 1995, and reacquired the license in 2007. Though their own Website claims it was in 2008. Looks like their Shadow Chronicles book was released in Sept 2008, so obviously they had it before then.

Sooooo, if they got another decade long contract, and that thing runs out in 2017....

Wouldn't mean squat. As per a statement from PB that I quoted a couple days ago, March 18th, 2014, an expiry of license puts them right in the crapper.

Palladium Books on March 18, 2014
This isn't Jeff, this is Wayne. I was nearby while Jeff was on the phone with you, and he was calm and polite the entire call, whereas you were rude and resorted to name-calling. He simply did not say the things you claim.
We're sorry about the delay in delivering the rewards for this project, but it is coming, and soon. There is no question about whether we will deliver. If something were to happen that would cause us to be unable to deliver we would, of course, offer refunds as Kickstarter's terms dictate. But that is not the case here; not even close. We'll deliver as promised, as soon as we can. Wave One will deliver in June or July, as we've said before. Wave Two by the end of the year, hopefully well before. Screaming and calling names won't speed up the process.

The highlighted text being the relevant bit. If they legally can't make the product, I'd like to know how they can argue that that wouldn't count as "unable to deliver". It's the very definition of the phrase.

Ahhh, "The Zero Incident", the gift that keeps on giving.

And he was even gracious enough to note that it wasn't Jeff (who is no longer with the company, and thus can be easily distanced from), but Wayne, whom is a long time employee.

 Mike1975 wrote:
[Actually no matter how annoying people seem to get by being asked to prove an assumption it does not invalidate the question. Just like people who say 97% of the scientists say Global Warming is a real thing caused by man.....then you investigate the poll and how that number came into being and you see how full of crap the poll is and how reality is much closer to 50/50.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your best bet would be to go directly to PB's FOTM forums and get an answer from the most likely place you'll find to find fans that would pay to talk to Kevin S.

That would be great advice for Cypher if he wants to provide the proof that I'm wrong.

I didn't say I doubted him, I just asked for proof.

Forar's proof was that they hadn't been completed by the time of a post made in 2013. As I hadn't recalled any further complaints about the calls not being done after that, I assumed they were done. Cypher said the complaints were much more recent than that but provided no proof other than it may be in the FB page.

If he, or anyone else can find proof of recent complaints about those calls, I'll retract my statement, it's that simple.

But I won't go to the effort of proving myself wrong for somebody else's benefit, that's up to them.

I could care less if Kevin has made those calls now. That a year and a half had passed since the KevinKS(TM) had occured and the calls hadn't been made is the real issue.

As is the fact it's been over 2 years since this KS ended "98% ready" and we don't have everything and we don't know the status of the second half is what is relevant to us.

Jefffar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
[Actually no matter how annoying people seem to get by being asked to prove an assumption it does not invalidate the question. Just like people who say 97% of the scientists say Global Warming is a real thing caused by man.....then you investigate the poll and how that number came into being and you see how full of crap the poll is and how reality is much closer to 50/50.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your best bet would be to go directly to PB's FOTM forums and get an answer from the most likely place you'll find to find fans that would pay to talk to Kevin S.

That would be great advice for Cypher if he wants to provide the proof that I'm wrong.

I didn't say I doubted him, I just asked for proof.

Forar's proof was that they hadn't been completed by the time of a post made in 2013. As I hadn't recalled any further complaints about the calls not being done after that, I assumed they were done. Cypher said the complaints were much more recent than that but provided no proof other than it may be in the FB page.

If he, or anyone else can find proof of recent complaints about those calls, I'll retract my statement, it's that simple.

But I won't go to the effort of proving myself wrong for somebody else's benefit, that's up to them.

In these cases I think both parties should either search out evidence or let it go since in essence it's all heresay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
I could care less if Kevin has made those calls now. That a year and a half had passed since the KevinKS(TM) had occured and the calls hadn't been made is the real issue.

As is the fact it's been over 2 years since this KS ended "98% ready" and we don't have everything and we don't know the status of the second half is what is relevant to us.

It's not a big loss for them except the $ they lost.....I spoke to him on the phone once and it was an "interesting" conversation.

The opening comment about it still happening remains unproven. Fine, fair enough, I think we're all in agreement there.

The fact it took at least 16 months to make 16 phone calls (could've been done at one a month even!) rather than a week or two (hell, a month or two to really spread them out and avoid impacting the business) is what is baffling. He even clarified that most people were only getting about 20 minutes; 6+ hours (longer calls for the guys at the top, presumably) is a lot of time in a single session, and sorting out scheduling when he's free and they are as well might take a bit of doing, but we're talking something that should have been cleared out in what, a month at most? There is no good reason other than "it got forgotten about or known and procrastinated over".

I don't care how busy he was/is; don't offer things for rewards you can't back up. It was a problem then, and it's a problem now.

The original point was that they made good on their other crowdfunded campaigns, and a challenge that it wasn't without shenanigans of their own. Moving past the unsupported allegation that the calls remained missing, there absolutely needs to be an asterisk there noting that yeah, the books were delayed (perhaps not massively compared to some on their roster, if going purely from the funding period to delivery, rather than the ancient 'who knows how much is actually done' period half a decade prior), and that some of the other rewards weren't exactly handled well either.

And even by that standard, 31+ months and counting on full delivery, with a target at the 37+ mark, and the potential to get up to well past that (3.5 years? 4? A nice half a decade?) isn't remotely acceptable. That's not "oh Kevin thinks it's a good idea, he'll mention it in a newsletter and string it along for 5 years", it's a *product line* they *took money for*. Some like to say that it's not a pre-order, and you're right, I can get my fething money back from a pre-order. This is worse, and thus I hold them to a higher standard, not a lesser one.

I don't care what he claims about being misled by Ninja Division in the Great History Of Everything. They have made models before. They have made countless products (books, dog tags, mousepads, pencils, etc). Getting a factory slot isn't the 12 labours of Hercules, transporting product across the ocean doesn't require discovering a new element. I'm sure it's a lot of work, I'm sure that even with wave one behind them it's still new(ish), but it's not rocket surgery, and every week and month and YEAR that goes by, the fewer acceptable excuses they have, triply so based on their ongoing (and sometimes seemingly unprompted) statements about how they haven't run off with the money, and they're not in trouble, and everything is going forward.

Eventually it strains credulity that anyone could put hundreds and thousands of hours into something with nothing to show of it, even if by accident.

They have put more effort into discussing mental illness in the last few weeks than they've put into discussing Wave 2 in the last year. They are not (officially, as a business) a mental health support group or service. They are (allegedly) making Robotech figures, and have been well paid significantly in advance on that. That's not okay.

"But Forar, people can do multiple things at once!" some might say. And that is true.

But they need to show their fething work for us to know that, and frankly even saying that isn't all that high a bar to clear. They found the fortitude to knock out 19 pages about assorted random gak half a year ago, they can find a couple hours to put out a page or two detailing what state everything is in.

And if that state is "a render, and maybe a sprue breakdown, kinda", they what the ever loving feth have they been doing for the last year and a half?

Because they sure as feth have not been working on wave two.

... I may have gone on a bit of a rant there.

 Forar wrote:


... I may have gone on a bit of a rant there.

It's good to release from time to time. Sarcastic wit doesn't scratch every itch on the Palladium Rash of DuplicityTM. I even felt better reading it.

I still think "Zero Incident" sounds pretty cool.

Hard to believe that it is almost 1000 days since the campaign ended though...

 Alpharius wrote:
I still think "Zero Incident" sounds pretty cool.

Hard to believe that it is almost 1000 days since the campaign ended though...

Didn't it take less time to rebuild the Spaceship that crashed on Macross Island and return to space with it than this kickstarter is taking to fulfill?

If the random sites I'm bringing up on Google are to be believed, the SDF-1 crashed in July 1999, and the launching ceremony was supposed to be in June 2009, so no, not quite.

Again, these are from random sites on the interwebz, if someone has the Perfect Collector's Edition with a time line in gold leaf or whatever, feel free to share it.

More substantially, according to WIkipedia, they seem to have gotten the license to Robotech back in or around September 2007.

Meaning that if licensing is actually a concern/consideration, they have ~19 months (give or take the specific dates involved) before that kicks in.

Which, given that 6-12 months is currently the generous estimate for completion, isn't exactly a lot of wiggle room.

But then, from what Kevin's puppet Wayne said, they'd offer refunds!