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@forar - Oh I agree they are ahead of the game, I even pointed out that they have the molds etc...but if they have no funds to produce those things, or no way to get funding to produce those things, those molds etc are useless.

I think they vastly underestimated the costs to make this with all the bonus stuff they added. I also think that HG got 15% of the kickstarter money for the royalties.

firesped wrote:
from what I have observed of PBs actions is that they are trying to raise money anyway they can. I do think they want to finish this project. Given the latest PB update, I think they are looking into licensing out their IP to raise the money. So someone else might be putting out a Rifts Miniature wargame.

BoC is the way to go. I was going to give them until their current projected deadline or if they change the date again.

the Robotech License renewal, if true, is just to put a stop to that issue imo. Given HG though, it is probably true.

PB really need to come clean if they want to try and rebuild trust. I don't think their is any possible way to re-launch the game though.

I don't think any bake sale or lemonade stand equivalent (i.e. the nonconexclusives and grab bags) is going to help them enough to produce wave 2. There are trying to license out their IP but they've been trying to do so for over a decade in fits and spurts with largely nothing to show for it than a failed game on a failed platform; it's nothing new for them even if the impetus to accomplish it is more pressing now. That's where honesty and integrity come in as you said. Whatever financial situation they're in now with regards to the remainder of KS funds they likely knew they'd be in once they paid the final shipping costs for wave one in the summer of 2014. If Jaymz's theory is correct then they should have come clean at the latest when the initial "rush" of retail sales failed to hit their shores. If they're truly out of money, trying to run out the clock and further bleeded away the fans they have left certainly won't help.

I won't argue with you there warboss. Palladium should have just come clean along time ago about what the frak is going on.

jaymz wrote:
Do any of you realize that if the project only manages to break even after rewarding the backers, even though they may now have the tools to manufacture more, they would still be effectively at square one again since they no longer have any funds to produce anything?

Only, you know, with a product already developed. Which is supposed to be the whole point of a KS, as per the site's blurb, their declaration of intentions and... well, eveything, ever.

As far as I know and as far as I can get from the horse's mouth, the point of KS is not to earn money, but to get help developing something.

So... it would be working as advertised, then?

Perhaps Jeffar would care to explain all the thread closures and bans given as a result of spreading "lies" about Palladium not having the funds to complete wave 2?

Did they remove those threads as well? I can't seem to find them.

Joyboozer wrote:
Perhaps Jeffar would care to explain all the thread closures and bans given as a result of spreading "lies" about Palladium not having the funds to complete wave 2?

Kevin hasn't admitted to it. And it is therefore not true.

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

yeah there is that as well ....LOL

Well obviously in between our fittings for jack-boots and snacking on a baby from a low income family, the Forums of the Megaverse™ Moderation Team® decided that it was time for one of our Abuses of Authority© and selected these threads and posts for some Moderation Justice™®©.

Or, maybe people shouldn't expect to be able to post unsubstantiated and damaging claims about Palladium on the company's own page.

Take your pick.

Kevin's offerings aren't damaging and unsubstantiated?

Jefffar wrote:
Well obviously in between our fittings for jack-boots and snacking on a baby from a low income family, the Forums of the Megaverse™ Moderation Team® decided that it was time for one of our Abuses of Authority© and selected these threads and posts for some Moderation Justice™®©.

Or, maybe people shouldn't expect to be able to post unsubstantiated and damaging claims about Palladium on the company's own page.

Take your pick.

Exactly! And it can only be substantiated by the owner of the company!

And, considering you're one of NMI's minions, I don't think you should expect a whole lot of benefit of the doubt.

Joyboozer wrote:
Kevin's offerings aren't damaging and unsubstantiated?

I would say the kickstarter claims for the past eleven months have been both damaging (to palladium) and unsubstantiated (with no proof of any progress).

 warboss wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Kevin's offerings aren't damaging and unsubstantiated?

I would say the kickstarter claims for the past eleven months have been both damaging (to palladium) and unsubstantiated (with no proof of any progress).

That is a very unfortunate statement, that is both damaging and really, really, really substantiated. By years of posts, now.

Jeffar, my apologies if my comments towards you have been harsh, I am just taking the piss and not being serious.

Joyboozer wrote:
Jeffar, my apologies if my comments towards you have been harsh, I am just taking the piss and not being serious.

You probably just made the list.

And I am being serious. NMI keeps one of all 'troublemakers' as well as a rating for how much of a problem you are.


Aside from that Ive found your comments quite funny.

Also funny is when you check the tactics section of PB's forums and see whole days have disappeared in between comments. Or maybe its just one of those rifts thingees.

Okay, so lets discuss what we DO know of the expenditures of the KS funds.

1) There were 17,502 core boxes created (Source: shipping container image from Update 155 (8/28/2014) showing "Carton 655 of 5834 - 3 sets of 55100 Main Box"

2) 6,681 core boxes among 4,804 backers were earmarked for Backers (adding all of the core boxes up on the KS main page, and then a distinct count of backers getting at least one core box for the second count). This therefore, does not include any added in on the backerkit.

3) International shipping was $150,000 (source: KS update from June 7 "Part One", subtitle "Kickstarter")

4) Kevin projected that the cost the game and expansion packs" would be "between $550,000 and $900,000" (source: KS update from June 7 "Part One", subtitle "Kickstarter")

Any other figures I missed?

So, cheapest I've seen the box set go for off PB's site is about $55. Assuming they're still selling it at a profit, this likely means their cost is about - I'm guessing - $40 per box. That would mean $700,080 in core boxes alone, not counting add-on boxes or bonus bag contents. With international shipping added, that alone is $850,080. If it cost just $10 to ship backer boxes domestically (which I think would be undercosting, but as example), that would be about $40,840 in itself (4,804 backers set to receive one or more core boxes), so my guesstimate is about now around $890,920 - and I still haven't been adding in the add-on boxes or bonus bags that went out.

It's very much looking like Wave 1 easily took out the first half of the KS funds all by itself, if not more with the talk of cost overruns. Unfortunately, there's also no telling what peripheral costs PB has been incurring that they've had to use the KS funds for in these past two to three years.

And thus why they need to come clean with what is going on and open the books to prove it.

As someone who saw his thread removed, I found it funny that the mods only stepped in when I asked why PB, did not want to make an immediate and robust dreply to Jaymz remarks about spending all of the KS funds.

Seems that you can touch a nerve on their web forums and things do get read, but instead of explaining and defusing situations , they find it easier to gag their detractors.

I believe that Jaymz's comments have the real ring of truth about them and PB are trying their best to do their impression of the three wise monkeys, with eyes shut, fingers firmly in their ears and no way they are going to talk to us - perhaps they think we will just write the money off and go away

wilycoyote wrote:
Seems that you can touch a nerve on their web forums and things do get read, but instead of explaining and defusing situations , they find it easier to gag their detractors.

This isn't the first time I've caused such a stir on the interwebs or on their own forums for Palladium....

Well, truth be told, they don't seem to be particularly hard to goad into behaving like a venezuelan president...

LOL true enough.....

 Stormonu wrote:

It's very much looking like Wave 1 easily took out the first half of the KS funds all by itself, if not more with the talk of cost overruns. Unfortunately, there's also no telling what peripheral costs PB has been incurring that they've had to use the KS funds for in these past two to three years.

Bigger Gen Con booth. Advertising for a wave that didn't arrive in time. Pre-booking factory time (proudly and loudly, to demonstrate how totes serious they were). Twice. Having to pay "China" (do you know how much it takes to pay over a BILLION people?!?!) to rework ND's totally crap designs.

So, a couple things to add to your "why they're so in the red" board.

 Stormonu wrote:
Okay, so lets discuss what we DO know of the expenditures of the KS funds.

1) There were 17,502 core boxes created (Source: shipping container image from Update 155 (8/28/2014) showing "Carton 655 of 5834 - 3 sets of 55100 Main Box"

2) 6,681 core boxes among 4,804 backers were earmarked for Backers (adding all of the core boxes up on the KS main page, and then a distinct count of backers getting at least one core box for the second count). This therefore, does not include any added in on the backerkit.

3) International shipping was $150,000 (source: KS update from June 7 "Part One", subtitle "Kickstarter")

4) Kevin projected that the cost the game and expansion packs" would be "between $550,000 and $900,000" (source: KS update from June 7 "Part One", subtitle "Kickstarter")

Any other figures I missed?

So, cheapest I've seen the box set go for off PB's site is about $55. Assuming they're still selling it at a profit, this likely means their cost is about - I'm guessing - $40 per box. That would mean $700,080 in core boxes alone, not counting add-on boxes or bonus bag contents. With international shipping added, that alone is $850,080. If it cost just $10 to ship backer boxes domestically (which I think would be undercosting, but as example), that would be about $40,840 in itself (4,804 backers set to receive one or more core boxes), so my guesstimate is about now around $890,920 - and I still haven't been adding in the add-on boxes or bonus bags that went out.

It's very much looking like Wave 1 easily took out the first half of the KS funds all by itself, if not more with the talk of cost overruns. Unfortunately, there's also no telling what peripheral costs PB has been incurring that they've had to use the KS funds for in these past two to three years.

Some VERY interesting numbers there - thank you for finding them and posting them here!

I can't remember, was Disposable Guy (the one who got fired and, presumably, was accused of stealing artwork of Kevin's mom's fridge) an expense incurred just to "handle" this project?

Don't forget the $100k for splitting wave 1 and 2 and the extra $50k+ for having to pay for so many extra containers to ship to the US.

I would like some clarity on the methodology of point 2 with the numbers. If it's just (Number per pledge level*Number of backers at level), then it really seems like that's the *minimum* number for backers; we know some people went bonkers and ordered 8 core boxes for use in some unholy Canuckistani tribal ritual (I assume). That would likely only register as 4 boxes if you're basing it solely on the KS page. While such people are undoubtedly bizarre outliers in both the campaign and society in general (), in aggregate people adding a core box here and a core box there in BackerKit could add up to a substantial number as well across 5,342 people.

Also unaccounted for is how many stores/distributors put in orders ahead of production. Hypothetically, if PB had 8k for backers and orders for 8k more sight-unseen from traditional distribution, then the order numbers are actually somewhat reasonable. This also could explain PB's rush to get those orders filled by a date certain, as THOSE contracts probably would have had specific deadlines wherein they could be cancelled and PB would lose the sales and (at that point) be stuck with the stock. Still attributable as PB incompetence, but a milder form of how the money disappeared. Do note that I don't think that's what happened, but that's my own personal bias; there's nothing in there that's impossible. As proof that it could have worked if not for those meddling kids, Mantic's Dungeon Saga had 5,963 backers and they reportedly had sold 15,000 copies within two months of starting KS fulfillment.

Obviously, none of those details are something we're ever likely to know with certainty outside of a court case, but for discussion's sake I think it's important to not make things look worse than they probably are.

And don't forget the cost of "professional painting" which I'm sure is already completed for Wave One and is just waiting on Wave Two so that people can get their super-expensive-orders.

 Krinsath wrote:
I would like some clarity on the methodology of point 2 with the numbers. If it's just (Number per pledge level*Number of backers at level), then it really seems like that's the *minimum* number for backers; we know some people went bonkers and ordered 8 core boxes for use in some unholy Canuckistani tribal ritual (I assume). That would likely only register as 4 boxes if you're basing it solely on the KS page. While such people are undoubtedly bizarre outliers in both the campaign and society in general (), in aggregate people adding a core box here and a core box there in BackerKit could add up to a substantial number as well across 5,342 people.

Hah.

ia ia Robothulhu Tech'fagn.

There are indeed a lot of factors to consider, including Kickstarter's take (8% or so for projects of this size, I think?), but also the Pledge Manager amount they brought in (roughly 10% according to a comment by Wayne, or 140-150k or so?).

Talked with my FLGS owner today. PB has around 9 products listed for his order guide that are supposed to be available by Quarter 2 of this year. Not one of them is RRT. Guess who is still lying about releases......any takers? Now he does admit that it is possible for things to show up soon, but from his experience anything not up for his orders now will not make it until after quarter 3, if at all.