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Randal Graves: So, I'm no more responsible for my decisions here than, say, a Death Squad soldier in Bosnia?

Dante Hicks: Oh, now, that's stretching it. You're not being asked to slay children or anything.

Randal Graves: Yeah, not yet.

 n815e wrote:
I wonder what motivates a person to voluntarily work for a company they know is crooked and treats customers so badly. Especially in the capacity of quieting the voices of unhappy customers.

Some people see others being victimized and just can't help but join in with the gang. Even getting a tiny scrap of power is better than none at all.

I also think it is people's idea that they are working as part of the gaming industry that is a dream for most of us...
Some people will look past all the bad, just to think they are part of the legend that once was..
Sad thing is what will happen to the guy making the Rifts Table Top game.. He done a few books with Palladium and
now managing a game that has a good chance of falling flat on its face..
I wonder what the first goal will be?? $40,000?? and don't get it in the first few weeks will they pull the plug??


Back on Topic..
Again.. I don't see Wave Two ever coming out.. maybe one random sprue in the next five years, but not get everything
that was promised.. just hate it because I had a bad feeling when I back this originally and was on the fence of just waiting
till it was released to retail to buy it.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I also think it is people's idea that they are working as part of the gaming industry that is a dream for most of us...
Some people will look past all the bad, just to think they are part of the legend that once was..
Sad thing is what will happen to the guy making the Rifts Table Top game.. He done a few books with Palladium and
now managing a game that has a good chance of falling flat on its face..
I wonder what the first goal will be?? $40,000?? and don't get it in the first few weeks will they pull the plug??

I don't think there's a real chance it won't fund, and that it won't fund early (first 48 hours) at that level. The fact of the matter is, while I expect the comment section of the Kickstarter to be toxic, and it won't fund as well as if RRT had been completed properly, there are still a crapload of people out there who simply don't care what has happened to other people, and there'll be a small handful who will consider backing, or increasing their backing, to "spite the haterz". That's the kind of world we live in now.

As for Carmen, beyond the books, it should be noted he was
- one of the leads for RRT. Second Game Designer (behind David Freeman),
- a Background Writer (AHEAD of Kevin, though that could just be alphabetical, though I expect Kevin argued it shouldn't be, or just didn't notice until it was too late),
- was a lead in the development team post campaign (I believe he was part of the FAQ team, and he tried to pass off Mike's Conventional Forces as his own)

I just don't see it failing to fund, at least I don't see it failing to fund due to toxicity. If they ask for too much for too little, or if funding is set at a ridiculous level (200K+), or if it's plainly obvious from published materials that the game sucks (all three being factors in the Robotech Academy disaster, beyond the toxicity), that'd be one thing. But I think the general fanbase is enough, and the "cloak" of Carmen not being a PB employee will allow it to fund.

 Genoside07 wrote:
Back on Topic..
Again.. I don't see Wave Two ever coming out.. maybe one random sprue in the next five years, but not get everything
that was promised.. just hate it because I had a bad feeling when I back this originally and was on the fence of just waiting
till it was released to retail to buy it.

Unlikely that they'll try and partially do it. It's simply just too expensive to try and do it in that manner. And it would just be PB throwing more money away, as it's clear retail sales aren't exactly booming. They won't get credit for a partial completion (not after years of promising more), and it'd just be a depletion of funding reserves, especially if they shipped to backers. Better to milk that money on "development" before claiming bankruptcy, rather than hurry that along.

Guys, rule 1, Jeffar deserves the same respect as everyone else here.
What I'm asking for is for it to be made more obvious to the general palladium community what is happening with RRT. This
is not a toxic group victimising Palladium, it's Palladium failing to deliver over and over.

Don't you mean that it is a toxic company poisoning the pool of potential fans? They aren't just failing to deliver, they actually have actively blamed those who tried to help, and delete any mention of this project being late.

I think my observation or takeaway from this is we have a company public representative that will not, shall not address the issue discussed.
He cannot possibly "stay on topic" other than to say anything we say is "conjecture" since no facts are offered.
So his function here is rather suspect.
It is similar to the "legal tsunami" where a person claims knowledge but cannot say... it borders on trolling.
It is more likely as hinted at: to feel "powerful" around people who are "helpless" in getting a company to do what they are morally and legally obligated to do.
Forgive me if behavior like that tends to remove them from my Christmas card list.

 n815e wrote:
I wonder what motivates a person to voluntarily work for a company they know is crooked and treats customers so badly. Especially in the capacity of quieting the voices of unhappy customers.

only one with a troubled mind would do such.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
I also think it is people's idea that they are working as part of the gaming industry that is a dream for most of us...
Some people will look past all the bad, just to think they are part of the legend that once was..
Sad thing is what will happen to the guy making the Rifts Table Top game.. He done a few books with Palladium and
now managing a game that has a good chance of falling flat on its face..
I wonder what the first goal will be?? $40,000?? and don't get it in the first few weeks will they pull the plug??

I don't think there's a real chance it won't fund, and that it won't fund early (first 48 hours) at that level. The fact of the matter is, while I expect the comment section of the Kickstarter to be toxic, and it won't fund as well as if RRT had been completed properly, there are still a crapload of people out there who simply don't care what has happened to other people, and there'll be a small handful who will consider backing, or increasing their backing, to "spite the haterz". That's the kind of world we live in now.

As for Carmen, beyond the books, it should be noted he was
- one of the leads for RRT. Second Game Designer (behind David Freeman),
- a Background Writer (AHEAD of Kevin, though that could just be alphabetical, though I expect Kevin argued it shouldn't be, or just didn't notice until it was too late),
- was a lead in the development team post campaign (I believe he was part of the FAQ team, and he tried to pass off Mike's Conventional Forces as his own)

I just don't see it failing to fund, at least I don't see it failing to fund due to toxicity. If they ask for too much for too little, or if funding is set at a ridiculous level (200K+), or if it's plainly obvious from published materials that the game sucks (all three being factors in the Robotech Academy disaster, beyond the toxicity), that'd be one thing. But I think the general fanbase is enough, and the "cloak" of Carmen not being a PB employee will allow it to fund.

 Genoside07 wrote:
Back on Topic..
Again.. I don't see Wave Two ever coming out.. maybe one random sprue in the next five years, but not get everything
that was promised.. just hate it because I had a bad feeling when I back this originally and was on the fence of just waiting
till it was released to retail to buy it.

Unlikely that they'll try and partially do it. It's simply just too expensive to try and do it in that manner. And it would just be PB throwing more money away, as it's clear retail sales aren't exactly booming. They won't get credit for a partial completion (not after years of promising more), and it'd just be a depletion of funding reserves, especially if they shipped to backers. Better to milk that money on "development" before claiming bankruptcy, rather than hurry that along.

well you would be surprised on whether it funds or not, it all depends on certain factors, what is the amount to fund? remember PB had an extremely small amount on the RRT project, if they have said same amount on the Rifts board game and only get that amount, guess what nobody will get anything (except maybe some PDF gak), to make the game fundable it would require a minimum of $300K (shipping being a large portion of that) and that is provided the free trade agreement is not cut off or taxs are not levied on product coming in from China, then we could be looking upwards of $600-700K or more.

and thats if it funds, from what I've seen of PB most of their followers willing to give them money with no expected release date already put in on the RRT project, so yeah they might be foolish enough to back the Rifts Board Game cause as someone once said a fool and his money are soon parted. but will they get enough to fund the campaign? who knows, will they get enough to actually put out the game? highly doubtful. the one major loser in this project will be Carmen, his name will be utterly soiled and destroyed, his name will be ground into mud and so on and so on. but hey he is willing to destroy his life for the sake of bathing in Kevin's Glory go for it.

but then again right now its doubtful if the project will even get going at all. (the silence lately about it has been deafening)

OK. I have some questions. What happen if HG cans PB on Robotech , they can't sell Robotech rpg games anymore? RTT KS is a failure of a KS for PB they don't know it yet? I wonder if all backer can't wait for RBG KS to start to how bad it gets? That it for now. P.S. I' am going write a letter to HG about this RTT KS and IP of Robotech in the hands of PB. I know it will not do anything about it but what hell.

DEZOAT wrote:
OK. I have some questions. What happen if HG cans PB on Robotech , they can't sell Robotech rpg games anymore? RTT KS is a failure of a KS for PB they don't know it yet? I wonder if all backer can't wait for RBG KS to start to how bad it gets? That it for now. P.S. I' am going write a letter to HG about this RTT KS and IP of Robotech in the hands of PB. I know it will not do anything about it but what hell.

HG will continue to let PB use the IP since no one else has any interest in it.

HG will not drop Palladium, afterall who else wants a miniatures/rpg license for a 30 plus year old obscure cartoon series?

The Rifts BG will likely fund on a very low overall total, as I am expecting it to be a Boardgame/miniatures hybrid and as a result the miniature count (likely to be the most expensive part) wil be low. The figures I would suggest will be obne piece boardgame quality - afterall you are really expecting the die hard Rifts rpg platers to be the majority of your backers.

Going forward the KS will be backed by the majority of its target customer base (as was the case for RTT) and so the likliehood of a runaway commercial success is very unlikely - can you see Carmen coming up with a new exctiting genre busting format?.

Whatever happens the only thing you can be certain of is that kevin will devote months to promoting and pushing it, will conveniently forgwtting about this project, which he knoows he cannot complete and is fully aware that it has the potential to bankrupt his company if he tried

Won't bankruptcy, of one form or other, 'protect' Kevin/Palladium from having to fulfill this campaign?

 Alpharius wrote:
Won't bankruptcy, of one form or other, 'protect' Kevin/Palladium from having to fulfill this campaign?

it would, but it would also cost him his business and his Rift's IP which whatever debtor he owes the most to will obtain and auction off or sell to the highest bidder, essentially Bankruptcy will be the end of Kevin's Empire.

 Alpharius wrote:
Won't bankruptcy, of one form or other, 'protect' Kevin/Palladium from having to fulfill this campaign?

Not necessary, really. Kickstarter's fraud-friendly TOS will do that.

Really, it funds, Kevin spews crap for long enough to avoid chargebacks (interestingly, according to chase, that's actually 500 days but I doubt he'd know that), and then keeps all the money.

From what we've seen with Robotech, there is literally nothing to prevent such an act. Except for Kevin's character. So, I'm sure everything will be fine!

Well, all I can say is this fiasco has taught me three things:

--Never buy from PB

--Never back another Kickstarter

--Never buy anything from HG

 Stormonu wrote:
Well, all I can say is this fiasco has taught me three things:

--Never buy from PB

--Never back another Kickstarter

--Never buy anything from HG

The most important rule is never trust an old man with a moustache, all of them are evil and will do bad things at every opportunity. I believe scientists determined the age of 48 to be the cut off.

Joyboozer wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Well, all I can say is this fiasco has taught me three things:

--Never buy from PB

--Never back another Kickstarter

--Never buy anything from HG

The most important rule is never trust an old man with a moustache, all of them are evil and will do bad things at every opportunity. I believe scientists determined the age of 48 to be the cut off.

What i've been cut off? how sad

 Mike1975 wrote:


I disagree, the Gnerl is key and a great boon to the Zentraedi, especially with the Long Range Missile upgrade option. 6 Gnerls with LRM's with Blast and a 48 inch range for 100 points......

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You should just try RRT using some of my rules

Yes, I missed the upgade option. "6 Gnerls with LRM's with Blast and a 48 inch range for 100 points" !!! impressive and deadly.

I'll download your rules and make a try. Thanks.

Joyboozer wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Well, all I can say is this fiasco has taught me three things:

--Never buy from PB

--Never back another Kickstarter

--Never buy anything from HG

The most important rule is never trust an old man with a moustache, all of them are evil and will do bad things at every opportunity. I believe scientists determined the age of 48 to be the cut off.

One more year (and a handful of months), and I'll be a member of that club.

 Stormonu wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Well, all I can say is this fiasco has taught me three things:
--Never buy from PB
--Never back another Kickstarter
--Never buy anything from HG

The most important rule is never trust an old man with a moustache, all of them are evil and will do bad things at every opportunity. I believe scientists determined the age of 48 to be the cut off.

One more year (and a handful of months), and I'll be a member of that club.

A few months for me.
I kinda figure you have to be in the over 40 club to have an interest in Robotech when it was introduced.
No mustache though, wife hates them... not quite sure why.
I think I even have a song for this, excuse the strong French influence, I am Canadian after all...Looks like they would need them to keep warm in the warehouse at PB since heaters are broken.
Love that note of theirs on the 19th:
"UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – 2017 release
Nothing new to report this week."
..."We appreciate ALL of you, and love that you run games for us at Gen Con. Thank you." Lazy sons of guns.
Am I justified in being a little upset they cannot be bothered to even try running their own product games?
What can they flog at GenCon? Really?
You would think it would give even small incentive to set some due-date for new stuff.
They give little reason to go see their booth as it is.

What is the game like to play?

I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash. I didn't even open the book.

What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?

This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.

I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?

Some work in progress

One more, the bazooka trooper from Robotech Sentimels

evancich wrote:
What is the game like to play?

I would say it is a serviceable game.
The dodge and roll with impact rules combined with command point expenditures get a little weird that may need some house rules.
There is a FAQ for the blast rules since it caused some confusion.
I would add by a factor of 10 to building points so they do not get completely destroyed in the first volley of blast fire.
It is a reasonably fast game and I think plays well with Drop Zone Commander terrain.

I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash.

When put together, the models look reasonably good, UEDF are a bit high in parts count, the Zent. pods are a bit more reasonable which is good for a horde army.

I didn't even open the book.

Palladium Books would cry, it is probably one of their better production values books to-date.
I would say points costs only being on the data cards and not the book was bad but at least all the main stats for all the units are there.

What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?

I would hesitate to say it is not really either of them but maybe a bit like 40k with the various sight line and cover rules.
An interesting mechanic is the use of command points for performing "special" actions and alternating activation with some "steal the initiative" elements.

This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.

The models I did not find frustrating, only time consuming.
I strongly suggest going to the Drive-Thru RPG and get the newer instructions that show what parts pair with each other on the model sprues since they were not numbered.
The game I think is worthy of time, even if someone is not a Robotech fan.
The frustration is some of the cooler models were reserved for Wave 2 which did not work out.

I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?

Palladium Books is the IP licensee from Harmony Gold for the Robotech license.
There is no legal means of getting secondary market stuff except through them.
Though I hear rumor they are in some discussions with those who have made 3D printing models of their IP (without permission), as possible efforts to help with wave 2

evancich wrote:
What is the game like to play?

I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash. I didn't even open the book.

What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?

This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.

I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?

The rules are kind of a mish mash of several types of games that I have played over the years.

It has elements of 40K, Vor the Maelstorm, and Warmahordes. Then it has some elements that are not familiar to me from any other game, but not necessarily unique. There are a couple "what the hell" rules like building damage capacity, HtH rules, and the blast rules. Overall, as a first edition, the game was actually fairly decent. It's current status of no support, and being 3 years behind, and the attitude given by the companies staff/owner were the death blow for the game. It could have become a great game, a few tweaks, and continuous support......oh well, what could have been.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

evancich wrote:
What is the game like to play?

I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash. I didn't even open the book.

What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?

This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.

I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?

The rules are kind of a mish mash of several types of games that I have played over the years.

It has elements of 40K, Vor the Maelstorm, and Warmahordes. Then it has some elements that are not familiar to me from any other game, but not necessarily unique. There are a couple "what the hell" rules like building damage capacity, HtH rules, and the blast rules. Overall, as a first edition, the game was actually fairly decent. It's current status of no support, and being 3 years behind, and the attitude given by the companies staff/owner were the death blow for the game. It could have become a great game, a few tweaks, and continuous support......oh well, what could have been.

Support and Love for Robotech are severly lacking. They are seen as ways to make $. Hence why I diverted to make other rules. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1642366472704877/

We already have rules for Bioroids, Invid, Hovertanks and the full spread. Blast has always been an issue with the way PB wants to do it.

 Mike1975 wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:

evancich wrote:
What is the game like to play?

I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash. I didn't even open the book.

What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?

This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.

I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?

The rules are kind of a mish mash of several types of games that I have played over the years.

It has elements of 40K, Vor the Maelstorm, and Warmahordes. Then it has some elements that are not familiar to me from any other game, but not necessarily unique. There are a couple "what the hell" rules like building damage capacity, HtH rules, and the blast rules. Overall, as a first edition, the game was actually fairly decent. It's current status of no support, and being 3 years behind, and the attitude given by the companies staff/owner were the death blow for the game. It could have become a great game, a few tweaks, and continuous support......oh well, what could have been.

Support and Love for Robotech are severly lacking. They are seen as ways to make $. Hence why I diverted to make other rules. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1642366472704877/

We already have rules for Bioroids, Invid, Hovertanks and the full spread. Blast has always been an issue with the way PB wants to do it.

I know, been there, checked it out. I was answering evancich's question with my opinion. I'm not really interested in your rules, which are decent, but I don't have a 3d printer, and don't want to try to support the slightly less than legal model sales for the models I do want. My new want is for https://www.facebook.com/groups/780369415405754/?hc_location=ufi to actually take off, but it's been a month since his last post, and at this point I think the plans fell through, but a Gundam miniatures game would be AWESOME!!! I think he was using the 1/400 scale figures, which seem to be out of print, but at this time still relatively easy to get. If his plans did fall through, then I may attempt to use your rules as a basis for a Gundam game for my personal benefit.

Am I justified in being a little upset they cannot be bothered to even try running their own product games?

It is well known that nobody there plays this game and nobody there plays their other games with the RAW.

That says it all.

Mike: Nice work with the models.
As to your rules, one day people will understand PB will not support theirs.
I think it is an excellent substitute that makes many improvements that is worth considering if some find the PB rules cumbersome.
I am not sold on the Battletech application however, Alphastrike addresses that quite well but it does remove some detail in exchange for larger battles.

What is easily agreed is that Robotech as a genre or pop culture item is sufficiently regarded that a rather impressive number of people are trying to support the needs of fans.
If only an easier means of licensing could be awarded to improve the legality of those efforts.

Harmony Gold has a death grip on their Robotech license so we are prevented from further products in North America to do with "Macross".
Palladium has a death grip on the "gaming" element of Robotech which prevents so many options and forces us into a release "schedule" that appears to span decades.
It seems like such a lesson in licensing that has gone wrong.

evancich wrote:
What is the game like to play?

I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash. I didn't even open the book.

What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?

This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.

I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?

I would say its a lot like battletech alpha strike.