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Do you think maybe Carmen saw how much money tactics brought in and is thinking hes going to make just as much or more?

If so he is delusional. He wont macross fans and battletech players buying in.

It will really stim from price and goals.Bad Karma could be a factor, but I am sure
there well be a large note somewhere saying we are not Palladium games.

The Savage Rifts had a little over 4,238 in backers with $438k profits made and
Robotech Tactics had 5342 backers with $1,442k so about a million more
in money with only about a thousand people difference.

I think a lot of people were very conscious with their backing of Savage Rifts..
more than likely just a place holder for some and maybe gave more after.

But I feel that Rifts Miniature game Kickstarter will do a few hundred thousand dollars in
pledges but will not get any crazy numbers, plus will that be enough to cover the project.

Part of that difference will be in what people can even buy.

The highest tier for Savage Rifts was still below the average contribution for RRT, and the vast majority contributed vastly below that (by tiers at least, though looking over the add on list, I'm skeptical of them being hot sellers in the pledge manager).

Similarly, a board game KS can blow up, but that usually requires a massive amount of content. Minis, limited edition stuff, expansions, etc. Add ons and nostalgia/popularity drove a *lot* of add on sales in RRT.

The average RRT backer contributed ~$270-300 (I believe Kicktraq says $270, and Wayne later claimed they got around 150k more from the pledge manager). The average SR backer contributed ~$100. I can't see a board game like Carmen/PB has been teasing out drawing in a lot more than that on average, which means they'd need like three or four times the backers of SR to get anywhere near RRT level money.

If nothing else, I can't see even PB apologists being willing to tie up much more than $100 apiece for a year or two or five or forever.

Their reputation won't prevent the campaign from funding (especially if they set an artificially low target, as we expect, and they clearly did with RRT), but it will make getting much more than mid 6 figures very difficult.

At least, based on my amateur analysis of the two campaigns we can compare and contrast.

Well looking at something like the latest KS from CMON - SMOG - tey are looking at around $100k for a hybrid boardgame with at least 63 minis. I would suggest the start point here would be much lower, possibly as low as around $50 for the base game, including say a dozen or so unique minis. Postage as is now custom will be added afterwards.

I would suggest a low funding goal or possibly $20-30 thousand.

I still would not be surprised to see over a thousand backers , maybe more SW rifts amassed over four thousand, but it will not be genre breaking and be an overnight sensation. I suspect it will be more of a source for Rifts rpg players to get some mins if nothing else.

Meanwhile this non Palladium game gets its own sub forum on the Palladium Books site - yes we cannot see any connection between companies here, move along.

ok people keep glossing over some things, but lets bring in some perspective, you have one game which has a pledge amount of $80 shipped in the US and you get 34 minis, then you have a game where you are paying a minimum of $50 plus shipping and you only get like 8-12 minis, which one you think people will go for? what the boardgame minimum will end up costing (just in the US) shipped is around $65 to $80, so unless that boardgame is something new and exciting (which it is not), it will be lucky to fund as a project unless it has a low starting goal, but then it is tantamount to never getting delivered since the startup cost will most likely be more then what the fund goal is, but then if they put the actual fund goal it would never get funded either. the boardgame is already dead before we even put in our two cents.

 Genoside07 wrote:
But I feel that Rifts Miniature game Kickstarter will do a few hundred thousand dollars in
pledges but will not get any crazy numbers, plus will that be enough to cover the project.

I would be surprised if they even cracked $100K or even got close to it, the game is lacking all the factors that will draw in crowds, the one major factor is the premise Rifts is built on is a strictly RPG playable premise, not a boardgame playable premise.

Presumably there are a lot of RIFTS fans out there, still?

I think this one will not have too much trouble cracking $100K, but how much more it gets than that is the real question?

What's the ceiling?

$250K?

$300K?

$500K?

 Alpharius wrote:
Presumably there are a lot of RIFTS fans out there, still?

I think this one will not have too much trouble cracking $100K, but how much more it gets than that is the real question?

What's the ceiling?

$250K?

$300K?

$500K?

i don't care how many Rifts fans are out there, with miniature games you want to get one of everything and mutiples of some, with a boardgame, you get one and you got all you can use, there is no reason to get more then one, which is why I say it will be lucky to get even close to $100K.

A lot of your money related...estimates have been, shall we say...off?

Still, if they can't crack $100K - what does that mean for Palladium as a whole?

Are we still laboring under the assumption that they need a large influx of cash in order to get Wave 2 out the door/keep the lights on?

If The RIFTS KS crashes and burns (i.e., doesn't fund, or doesn't over fund by...a lot), are they done?

The same can be said about RPGs, and that didn't stop Savage Rifts from attracting thousands of backers and over 400k.

Of course, a bunch of those were digital only, which doesn't apply here.

It's not a perfect 1:1, Apples To Apples comparison, but the general gist I'm taking away is that while Rifts/Palladium aren't Big Dogs on the scene, their global fanbase remains big enough to still kick them 6 figures pretty easily. Yeah, sure, a bunch of those backers were probably brought onboard by Savage Worlds with a little nostalgia in there too, but despite the toxicity of RRT, their lower bounds are still higher than I would'vet anticipated.

Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.

 Alpharius wrote:
A lot of your money related...estimates have been, shall we say...off?

Still, if they can't crack $100K - what does that mean for Palladium as a whole?

Are we still laboring under the assumption that they need a large influx of cash in order to get Wave 2 out the door/keep the lights on?

If The RIFTS KS crashes and burns (i.e., doesn't fund, or doesn't over fund by...a lot), are they done?

well RRT wave to is just a myth never to see the light of day, the boardgame can make over a million and still wave 2 of RRT will never happen. also my money related estimates are spot on, been there, done that.

 Forar wrote:
The same can be said about RPGs, and that didn't stop Savage Rifts from attracting thousands of backers and over 400k.

Of course, a bunch of those were digital only, which doesn't apply here.

It's not a perfect 1:1, Apples To Apples comparison, but the general gist I'm taking away is that while Rifts/Palladium aren't Big Dogs on the scene, their global fanbase remains big enough to still kick them 6 figures pretty easily. Yeah, sure, a bunch of those backers were probably brought onboard by Savage Worlds with a little nostalgia in there too, but despite the toxicity of RRT, their lower bounds are still higher than I would'vet anticipated.

Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.

problem with that analogy is Savage Worlds is a known property, Carmen's little company is not, and even though PB has their supporters, they still might be a bit gun shy after Northern Gun and RRT. I see the game coming in at maybe $60K-$80K if it does. (until all those fake pledges and dollar pledges pull out.)

also lest we forget that other game with PB's help and that failed to fund and was cancelled.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1366211550/numinous-where-every-creature-counts?ref=category

Yeah, I just can't see why a game with the exciting premise of "defend your Victory Number" just didn't catch on.

And a creator who spouted stuff (with such awesome grammar) as this:

As far as Robotech goes. We are looking at a February release. I know there will be many people moaning and groaning saying Palladium History this and delays that..The game is being created as fast as it should be.. You want it faster than your going to get CRAP!. the initial number of molds that were originally estimated could not handle the detail that was required to make the beautiful sculpts that everyone has seen.. So double the number of molds.. (Goodbye pile of money that is needed for that change and hello delay). This is what it takes to make a superior product. NO shortcuts! There is no substitute for a quality product. Should that cause a delay in shipping? YES! Give me that delay, I welcome it. People just do not understand the process that this project has been going through. just the coordination and approvals of the sculpts and the rules and the resource management that has been utilized for this project is staggering.. Initial release estimates for RRPGT was for a perfect world and no delays.. fine great. Everyone that is complaining needs to take a rational look as to the world and how things work in the real world and not in a person's imagination.. I want quality, not crap. So Kevin S., John C., and Tommy Y., please make sure that you take the time you need to make this a great game and quality miniatures. I know many of the guys at Palladium and Ninja now and these people are great guys and girls. They are committed to give the fans of Robotech the quality game that they have been waiting for for almost 30 years now. I can wait, because I've been trying to get this done for longer than anyone out there.

Plus, you know, his last blog post was flogging his failed Kickstarter.

 Forar wrote:


Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.

Hmmm...

You know, all kidding aside, you're probably on to something there.

Is the RIFTS Boardgame launching soon?

The reason Palladium is seemingly more positive now about Wave 2 might be just what you think it is about!

 Alpharius wrote:

 Forar wrote:


Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.

Hmmm...

You know, all kidding aside, you're probably on to something there.

Is the RIFTS Boardgame launching soon?

The reason Palladium is seemingly more positive now about Wave 2 might be just what you think it is about!

in other words PB is lying to help their Rift's Boardgame.

Asterios wrote:
in other words PB is lying to help their Rift's Boardgame.

Kevin doesn't lie... he just continuously changes the truth (his truth)

 Alpharius wrote:

 Forar wrote:


Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.

Hmmm...

You know, all kidding aside, you're probably on to something there.

Is the RIFTS Boardgame launching soon?

The reason Palladium is seemingly more positive now about Wave 2 might be just what you think it is about!

Last week's newsletter says that it's supposed to go live in March or April, so yeah, pretty soon (though it has been shuffling backwards a bit, I believe they were pretty firm on March for a while there)

Ooooh! Maybe they should aim for April 18th for the trolling factor. (the day RRT launched, 4 years ago)

 Genoside07 wrote:

Asterios wrote:
in other words PB is lying to help their Rift's Boardgame.

Kevin doesn't lie... he just continuously changes the truth (his truth)

The phrase you are looking for is "alternative facts"

 jaymz wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:

Asterios wrote:
in other words PB is lying to help their Rift's Boardgame.

Kevin doesn't lie... he just continuously changes the truth (his truth)

The phrase you are looking for is "alternative facts"

Anyone even with a basic knowledge of US news and politics should have no reason to be upset or surprised with the idea that the news provides "Alternative Facts" But lets stay away from politics. No sense stirring up the portapotty.

I wouldn't even say that. He's well into the territory of the "Fun Fact". The fact that has the same word in it as the "Fun" sized Mars bar, and where it means the same thing.

 Alpharius wrote:
Presumably there are a lot of RIFTS fans out there, still?

I think this one will not have too much trouble cracking $100K, but how much more it gets than that is the real question?

What's the ceiling?

$250K?

$300K?

$500K?

I think it will be roughly the same as Savage Rifts as mostly the same people will contribute to it, and the same people who stayed away because of association with Palladium will continue to stay away. Maybe a few hundred people fewer, because Rifts fans are notoriously uninterested in anything but RPG books with copious reprinted material. (Kevin has told them for decades that anything other than RPGs are inferior forms of entertainment.)

I don't care how much future expansion they promise, anyone who knows anything about Uncle Kev's history with sublicensors knows the game has no future and Uncle Kev will be swooping in soon enough to add the stock to his warehouse hoard. Savage Rifts may avoid that, but the Rifts boardgame has all the hallmarks of the Myrmidion Press and Rifts card game events.

So, I'm going to guess $400K. Let's see how wrong I end up being.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:

Ooooh! Maybe they should aim for April 18th for the trolling factor. (the day RRT launched, 4 years ago)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that happened. I guarantee you that it's been considered.

It is odd, Thomas Roache has been rather quiet lately.
Funny, I still find on occasion I dig into his old blog: http://robotechbattles.blogspot.ca/
I shouldn't say much because I do not think I know his user name here (I do not need to know unless he wants me to know...).
Yes, grammar can sometimes be difficult for many of us, I give him more of a free pass since his "baby" was badly abused by the PB foster parent similar in tone to "A Series of Unfortunate Events" which is rather appropriate (Kevin = Count Olaf?) so he had got rather "excited" a few times.

But that is the deep dark past, time to think about the future!
Oh yeah, I think we need to wait for the next PB "update".
I would work on my RRT models now but I have a Bolt Action tournament tomorrow...

GabrielV wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Presumably there are a lot of RIFTS fans out there, still?

I think this one will not have too much trouble cracking $100K, but how much more it gets than that is the real question?

What's the ceiling?

$250K?

$300K?

$500K?

I think it will be roughly the same as Savage Rifts as mostly the same people will contribute to it, and the same people who stayed away because of association with Palladium will continue to stay away. Maybe a few hundred people fewer, because Rifts fans are notoriously uninterested in anything but RPG books with copious reprinted material. (Kevin has told them for decades that anything other than RPGs are inferior forms of entertainment.)

I don't care how much future expansion they promise, anyone who knows anything about Uncle Kev's history with sublicensors knows the game has no future and Uncle Kev will be swooping in soon enough to add the stock to his warehouse hoard. Savage Rifts may avoid that, but the Rifts boardgame has all the hallmarks of the Myrmidion Press and Rifts card game events.

So, I'm going to guess $400K. Let's see how wrong I end up being.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:

Ooooh! Maybe they should aim for April 18th for the trolling factor. (the day RRT launched, 4 years ago)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that happened. I guarantee you that it's been considered.

problem is the Savage worlds Rifts game had a mix of Rifts players and Savage Worlds players, the Rifts Board Game will be all Rifts players so i'm thinking a whole lot less. and with the taint associated with PB it might not even fund.

Hey, hey Rick?

$20 to the charity of each other's choice says it funds.

You game?

You keep claiming you don't think it'll fund, so how certain are you?

Because between their baseline level of fanatics, and troll pledges. I don't think there's any chance it doesn't fund unless they set the starting point at like half a million or more.

I like this idea!

It could end up being A Very Good Thing®™©!

And could lead to a...

...Tsunami of Charity Donations®™©!

 Forar wrote:
Hey, hey Rick?

$20 to the charity of each other's choice says it funds.

You game?

You keep claiming you don't think it'll fund, so how certain are you?

Because between their baseline level of fanatics, and troll pledges. I don't think there's any chance it doesn't fund unless they set the starting point at like half a million or more.

well can't make a guess like that without knowing their fund amount, that is why I didn't say it would or would not fund with any certainity.

Okay, cool, we'll revisit this idea in March/April/Whenever it launches.

 Forar wrote:
Okay, cool, we'll revisit this idea in March/April/Whenever it launches.

yeah they can have a funding amount of anywhere from $10K to $500K or more as far as we know, but the one thing we can probably agree on is even if it funds it will not deliver.

...and another Tsunami of (X)®™© goes by the board...

The latest PBWU is up.

The Rifts Boargame got a dozen lines about how it's totally not a PB project, and how it's been in development for "two years" (and yes, Kevin italicized it). Because we know how important getting the groundwork on development was, for getting RRT done properly...

For the second week running...

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – 2017 release
Nothing new to report this week.

Given this was the last Update within the timeframe given on December 9th "It is starting to look like our manufacturing plan to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two game pieces with much lower part counts is not going to pan out. We should know by the end of January, 2017.", even though they changed it to mid February on Jan 13th "We should be able to present you manufacturing details and a timetable in another month or so.", it looks like it's going to be another continual sliding of deadlines that PB is famous for.

Speaking of...
Rifts Secrets of the Atlanteans - March 2017
Rifts Sovietski - June 2017
PBFantasy Garden of the Gods - April 2017
Rifts HoH Arsenal - March 2017
Rifts Secrets of the Coalition States - April 2017

Because nothing say Palladium like stating they're expecting 5 books to be done in 5 months. Note, that at least two were mentioned in last year's "First 6 months of 2016" post.

And while I was looking for that, I found this little tidbit from last year's end of January PBWU.
"In the Spring we expect to be able to share with you much more details, information, progress reports and offer up new material on a regular basis. We’ll have some new data and material sooner, but I don’t think things will really begin to heat up before Spring or Summer. We want Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two and fulfillment of our Kickstarter obligations more than anyone. It’s coming."

Filling me with confidence there, Kevin!

 Alpharius wrote:
...and another Tsunami of (X)®™© goes by the board...

Ever feel like the referee in WWE?
Lots of drama and carrying on and every once and a while remind people that there are rules...
I always wanted the Ref to say "Ok you princesses, how about you get to it?"

I would say that if they REALLY want to get a Rifts board game funded: they will.
I suspect anything over $1000 they are willing to pocket... er, "put to good use".