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Maybe I'm weaker than most. I had seriously given thought to ponying up some more money for the exclusives. It may have helped them out, and gotten us our W2 that bit quicker as they could have used the new orders to re-set the clock meaning we'd have had some [all] of the same excuses whilst waiting for the new stuff, but they'd have used the money to pay for the shortfall in W2. The delays in the new stuff covering the fact that they are actually using income from RRT and other stuff to pay for the new stuff.

But after that 'updaaate!" You can kiss my hairy, brown [Expletive Deleted]!

Is KS actually going for a world record? How many times can you throw someone else under a bus? How many different people can you throw under the same bus? How many 'updates' can he post that have absolutely zero factual, new, content?

Where were the pictures of whatever progress they have actually made? Why did they make no mention at all of the resin stuff, and why weren't the 'exclusives' resin?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd have a hard time choosing which bank to use if my only two choices were one run by a convicted fraudster and the other was run by an incompetent moron. Personally I believe that in that situation, "Money in a bedsock under the mattress" would be increasing faster than any bank account.

All Kev's pleas of "We didn't know it was this HARD, honestly" are just proving that they didn't do their 'due dilligence' properly. I am amazed that they didn't end up getting fleeced by everyone else - has anyone checked the Chinese factory car park?

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm!
PB Potatoe Salad.
Taste the Rainbow!

As in, we're 15 pages into the second thread, and still no Real(tm) news of wave 2 (c)!

I fear that Kev has got a severe case of
.
.
.Oh, look, a squirrel!

So athough any particular project takes ages from start to finish, PB must be getting something out the door at regular(ish) intervals, right?

Merijeek wrote:Except the Invid could be in metal. Which has a much, much lower startup cost.

And the same could have been said for all the special character models we are waiting on in wave 2. They could all have been resin and finished before the majority of wave 1, and substantially cheaper, but PB insist that they are going to be IP models of the same mouthwatering quality we have seen before. So how 'limited' is this 'limited quantity' going to be to pay for full metal moulds?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
So out of an announced 24 books from 3 years ago, only 2 have actually been released?

And guess what paid for those RPG books...

And a GUESS is all it would be. Seing as no-one here would ACTUALLY KNOW what PB's finances were prior to the KS, what they are today, and what their income has been in the meantime. As long as they have an accountant [and it's only a guess on my part that they have one, mind.] that can show that their income for the period was greater than any remaining costs on those books, your statement falls flat on it's face.

And they can run that any way you want. If you ask what paid for the books, it was their income from other sources. [The KS funds paid their services, their wages, and everything else.] You ask about their overheads, their income paid for that. [the KS paid their wages, and for the books.]

 Forar wrote:
I guess I'm just not getting it. The Ogre KS has been pointed out a few times over the years about how Ogre is super duper ultra late, but man, that giant box of Ogre proper is pretty swanky. Being annoyed that they don't have a video game up (even respecting that it was an idiotic stretch goal) feels like a reach compared to "delivered 1/3 of the models, the other 2/3's might as well be in Narnia" that this one has.

Narnia, that's a bit close, isn't it?
I had thought that all of wave 2 was complete (After all, it WAS 98% done before the KS ended, right?) but unfortunately was shipped to the USG Ishimura* for delivery to Palladium. And we all know how that ended, don't we?

* Planet cracker ship from the computer game "Dead Space"

And I ONLY got decals. But that was all that was available from my pledge as a wave 1 item. Stupid as I'd already messaged them saying don't send them, Im happy to wait for wave 2 for them. After all, I now have a 'fullfilled' pledge where I have currently paid around $150 for a $5 sheet of decals I have no models for.
:(

Not actually that pissed at the moment.
Resigned.
Empty.
Bored.

Just nmot that pissed.

If he's not broke now, he'll be broker by the time he's finished dealing with PB!

Ok, firstly, I don't actually dislike the art style on those, but the last 3 images make me wonder. I mean, they do look rather ........... Tau.
Wonder if the artist plays any WH40K?

And the weekly update is up. To the tune of
"UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™

Nothing new to report on this front for now, but we have a number of things boiling. More after Gen Con."

Well, at least they are admitting they have nothing to report, that's progress, right!
And the "number of things boiling", that wouldn't be the 5K odd backers, by any chance?

 Stormonu wrote:
Ok, now that I've had some time to mull over the pictures, I think they are very poor designs.

Though I like the "modern" look, the destroids can be too easily mistaken for alpha/beta variants. They also look too much like Gundam designs, not Robotech.

If these were going to truly be used in the Robotech world you would want them to have a distinct design so they are NOT confused as alphas/betas. Just like you can tell that a Tomahawk is NOT a Veritech, you should be able to tell that the "new" Tomahawk is not Alpha fighter, but a non-transformable battloid. These designs just do not fit.

It's like trying to slip Star Wars style starfighters into Star Trek.

Another swing and a miss for PB.

Agreed. However (And a big IF) these are supposed to be actual military vehicles, a comonnality of design makes sense. The more common the components, the easier they are to maintain and the higher the percentage of time you can keep them in service. Having large numbers of common components means you need more of them and economics of scale mean each component becomes cheaper.

Having said that, you could do that for the functional components and have the outer skins and armour being different to ensure they are easily differentiated on the battlefield - although that also means your enemy can easily work out which are the biggest threat and concentrate fire on those to cripple you.

Still, don't see why you have a small hand alongside a large cannon, and they certainly don't yell "Robotech" to me, think they look more "Heavy Gear" and glad they are not included in the KS, much prefer the classic designs anyway.

But that's not the point,is it!

I was not comparing a Tomahawk to a VF-0D. I was comparing an old Tomahawk to a new one.

How many elements were common between the Spitfire MkI and the MkII, how many were still there in the MkIII and IV? I was not comparing how many elements are common between the Lightning and a Hind.

Although using common components make sense, just ripping the head off one 'vehicle' and putting it on another does not. I was talking at the component level, rather than the whole.

Edited for clarity.

Asterios wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
What about doing Wave 2 in Resin?

Would the economics make sense for that?

no the costs would be prohibitive, which is why most companies go plastic since while the initial cost is costlier (depends on what kind of mold you go for, and cost is not much more), the per piece count after all the items to be made will be about half or even more cheaper then the cost of resin, which is why those companies that deal with resin usually only have them for the unique units, ones that do not need to be massively reproduced.

And that is why I questioned wave 2 being plastic from the start. Costs of tool steel moulds can be £10Ks for basic moulds. Slide-core tooling to produce hollow barrels is much more. And the more you want to put on a runner (Sprue), the more expensive it gets because you require much larger machines to make it - and larger machines means larger running costs due to heating and cooling the moulds every shot. Larger machines also require heavier hydraulics to move the mould halves and to keep them closed against the injection pressures.

OK, if there are any 'mainstream' units in there, they should be plastic. Things like the objective markers, YF boxes, and such.

But the character models? Stuff that is KS/Con exclusives? So far everyone has said they'll be plastic. I mean, seriously? All that expensive tooling going on 5-10K units? At that point, you've got to be thinking the difference in costs don't amount to much and getting them done in resin SHOULD have enabled them to be worked on at the same time as the wave 1 stuff. They SHOULD have been available for shipping BEFORE wave 1 went out [as indeed the RESIN SDF-1 and RESIN bases SHOULD have been.]

Most companies looking at producing stuff by injection moulding plastic are looking at 100's of K units minimum so they can minimise the cost/unit of the tooling. Now although you will certainly have to make multiple moulds to produce 5-10K units in resin, the undeniable fact here is that if character models and other small-run stuff had been resin from the start, all of that could [and SHOULD] have been worked on at the same time as Wave 1. We should all be sitting on that stuff already, along with Wave 1. [and due to silicone moulds being able to cope with certain undercuts (which tool steel can't) then they'd be the same quality in less pieces.]

Yes. It's all looking rosy for backers from Washington.

The only benefit I see as a UK backer is that a judgement from a US state may increase the chance of a UK wide judgement following suit.

I have no idea if that will help backers from other US states, I hope it will. I don't believe, however, that it does anything worth crowing about this side of the pond. If I hear about a class action here in the UK, I may just join it. But I don't believe the number of backers will be enough to make that a reality - especially when you consider that Scotland, Irelend, and indeed Wales, may have to go through sepperate processes and the number of backers in each location would therefore be much smaller than a UK-wide action.

 Forar wrote:
Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?

For those that had that, sure.

I feel like a stuck record here, but I paid $145 (Ish, CBA to dig harder for what I pledged for after all this time.) and so far have received a $5 (ish) set of decals. How much of that $140 am I due back? [$140. I didn't ask them to pay someone else for doing noting since promoting the POSSIBILITY of some robotech models. I should get back either what I expected for my pledge, or the money. I paid in £ so I could end up losing on the exchange rate either way, but KS have done nothing to encourage PB to get it out correctly or on time, so they ought to re-imburse the backers their fees on a project that has gone so far off track it's seriously in danger of falling of the edge.]

I mean, after all, if I'd gone to PB with the idea for this, paid them M$1.4, and got out of it what had been delivered, their backside would have been in court long ago for FRAUD. But because they had the idea, came to us for the same money, we have no comeback?

And I don't know about "Churning and burning as we speak", seems like it's been more "Crash and Burn" to me.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
And even if it was, how come PB doesn't have a single picture of anything for Wave 2 in months?

Obviously because ND haven't done anything towards it in months! [/sarcasm]

Asterios wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It is entirely possible that he has done and said objectively stupid things, preserved for posterity on the internet. Like many, if not all of us.

I would prefer people continue to badger Kevin over lackeys like NMI.

problem is the only way to get any sort of response out of Kevin is to file a BBB complaint and maybe even a complaint with your local State's AG.

No idea how/what to do considering I live in the UK. Feeling that I am probably going to get boned.

Went in to the Ks as I am a modeller first and foremost, have no desire to play the game, and only wanted the character models, SDF-1, and a few bits. I don't want core boxes in place of (almost) all the stuff I wanted, it's either give me what I ordered, or give me my money back!

I might have to look into small claims court over here - and I don't believe for a second that Kev, or anyone else from PB, will put up a defence as it'll cost them more to either hire a local defence, or fly someone over here than it would to settle. Still, hanging on in the vague hope that W2 isn't vapourware at this point, I'd rather have my models than my money back, but if that's all I can get .................................

Well, for all I expect to get from PB, and given that I certainly don't have the most to lose, I might as well just forget it. That's £100+ that I'll never see again, but they'll never see me again. That loss will hurt, but at least it's not going to hurt now as much as it would have done two years ago.

Especially as I mainly wanted that SDF-1, and that need has now been satisfied. I have just put in a pre-order with HLJ. It's a known scale, it's Injection Plastic, and it'll get here before anything from PB.
http://www.hlj.com/product/hsg65830.

Nothing more to say on the matter.

Good day, sir.

 warboss wrote:

 Forar wrote:
There are absolutely some doom and gloomers who could get wave two wrapped in thousand dollar bills and delivered by *insert gorgeous model of their choice here* who would continue to complain.

If you ever need to test out that hypothesis, LMK. I'm willing to help and can supply a list of models to choose from. I'm also flexible about the thousand dollar thing (whether wrapping me or the models that is).

I'd rather have W2 delivered by a gorgeous model who was wrapped in thousand dollar bills. Her costume might have a few holes in it before she left, mind you. Other than that, you can sign me up for that programme too. (Don't think I'd be complaining after though. Would be interesting to find out!)

 warboss wrote:

If Palladium promised either of those, we'd be "lucky" to actually get 3 years later Kevin Siembieda or NMI incompletely wrapped in old Italian Lira singles... and they're going commando.

Now that I'd have paid extra for! Kev delivering my W2 PERSONALLY, 5 years late, but commando and covered in Lira of any denomination, HELL YES!

1/ Lira of any denomination are worthless as Italy is in the Euro and has been for some years, so Lira would be dry and very flammable by now.

but mainly

2/ It would be my only chance, on behalf of us all, to find out if Unicorn Farts are indeed flammable!

Yes, I'd take that hit for the team, we need to know these things!

"If a friend borrows $100 and you never see them again, consider it a wise investment!"

Well, if my pledge helped make it so that PB get this project so fethed that the American AG's bring down the company and prevent anyone else from going through this, I'm glad.

If I ever get any further product from PB, it'll be a miracle. The update is, as usual, empty rhetoric. Half an hour later, you need to read it again because you can't remember any of it.

"Goodbye PB, I must leave you"

Just a quick question.

Anyone have any idea how small a 1/4000 scale VF-1 will be?

I just noticed that there are 8 VF-1's, 8 VF-1 Supers, and a couple of "Destroyed" Monsters in the 1/4000 SDF-1 kit I have ordered from Japan.

I'm hoping that they'll be at least a couple of mm long!

Asterios wrote:

 Conrad Turner wrote:
Just a quick question.

Anyone have any idea how small a 1/4000 scale VF-1 will be?

I just noticed that there are 8 VF-1's, 8 VF-1 Supers, and a couple of "Destroyed" Monsters in the 1/4000 SDF-1 kit I have ordered from Japan.

I'm hoping that they'll be at least a couple of mm long!

umm your sure those are in 1:40000 scale? cause thos would be microscopic, look at the RRT fighters, now imagine if they were about a third of a mm big I believe?

I didn't say 1:40,000 scale, I said 1:4,000.

http://www.hlj.com/product/hsg65830

And that's where I got that from. I'm not terribly worried about the fighters or "Destroyed" monsters to be frank, I just want a decent looking ship configuration SDF-1 this century.

Because I don't want any more people to be scammed by these 'people'.

Because they are useless.

Because they are morons.

Because they are incompetent.

Because they have been quiet for far too long [on any real proof of life for wave 2].

Because they took $140 from me and all I got for it [so far] is a lousy $5 decal sheet.

Because it's just a matter of time.

Because I want someone else to get the licence and then I might actually get my stuff.

Because they still haven't addressed the fact that the resin components of the campaign could have been worked on at the same time as wave 1 and been in our hands already.

[Delete any that don't apply.]

Oh, and don't forget

"Because it couldn't happen to a more deserving guy/company"

 warboss wrote:

 Conrad Turner wrote:
Oh, and don't forget

"Because it couldn't happen to a more deserving guy/company"

I can think of plenty more deserving guys/companies to get $1.4 million for a business campaign that would be more humble, competent, and thankful for the unprecedented opportunity it was.

So can I. In fact, given what has happened on this campaign overf the last two years, I can't think of a single company LESS deserving of that amount of money. But don't forget, the original question was "Why do you want Palladium Books to die?". Answer. "Because it couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.". Simples.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Wait, didn't TPTB claim to have delivered all of the Wave 1 boxed sets globally? No?

That, unfortunately, is quite possible. I'm the poor git who didn't go in for this campaign for the game. I'm more of a modelmaker than a player, and I have fond memories of both Robotech and "Battle of the Planets" [not a patch on the original "Science Ninja Team Gatchaman", but that's another story.] and wanted a decent model of the ship version of the SDF-1 and the character models.

So it may be correct that all the Wave 1 stuff has gone out, but all my wave 1 items totalled a lousy decal sheet - which they blew around 1/3 of what I paid in postage to get it to me. I look forward to getting that SDF-1, Rick, Roy, Khyron, Miria(? the female power armour figure) and YF-4 set for less than $6 in postage to the UK. I'm quite happy to pay the Grasping Post Office whatever they charge to get it to mee due to import duties and the £8 they add on for the privellege of paying it on your behalf whenever PB actually ship these items [sometime between now and the sun going nova. PB may have some clue as to international business, answering e-mails and the like by then. The SDF-1 is going to be sold straight on no matter what, I have already pre-ordered the one I linked to on HLJ. It will undoubtedly be bigger, more detailed, and arrive quicker than the vapourware we've had so far on wave 2 from PB.

Seriously, PB would lose less money - and gain some slight goodwill - if they just refunded my pledge [which is obviously why they won't do it.]

They have my address, they know how much I paid, and what they've spent sending me what little they have. I don't see the problem.

Unless you are suggesting they don't know how to operate a cheque book and pen?

You are, aren't you?

OMG, they don't, do they?

And if you thought this weeks 'update' would contain any information, think again.

We'll all be dead of asphyxiation fomr holding our breath and then they'll be able to say "We don't have to worry about Wave 2, all the backers are dead."

Someone at PB really ought to get put on a course in sound engineering. Then maybe we'd get someone capable of changing the record!