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 Talizvar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
thing of it is by themselves their value is worthless, but paint em up and assemble them and they have some value, provided the paint job is decent.

That is the challenge I find for myself: I think I need to tape/mask areas off to get nice straight lines.
On something that small it is easier than I thought to make them look like garbage with slight blobiness or a wobble in spots.
I must note: these observations I reserve for my own work, I feel I should know better and blame impatience for these imperfections.
Seeing ANYONE field models with paint on them at all makes me happy.
The nerve-wracking part is you paint everything first and when you are certain they are done: then shade.
There is no good way of going back for touchup without going back to the "block-painting" stage basically starting over.

Funny how the more I learn about painting the more I laugh and laugh about those who label their work as "pro-painted".
There is ALWAYS someone who can paint so well they make your work look like an amateur performing finger painting.
I made the mistake of handing a cousin of mine a miniature to paint and she is a trained artist.
To say I "hate her very fondly" is the best I can describe the end result of her "work" which she finished off with some comment "I need to paint in acrylics more, they are like the middle-ground of watercolor and oils." which she is more than proficient in.

So yeah, "Pro-painted" should go with a label like "BTM" meaning: "Better Than Most" if you cannot lower to the phrase "Tabletop standard" that varies wildly.
Speaking of which, I have some more miniatures assembled that need more "block-painting", worth probably zero to someone else, "priceless" to me.

well some of those so called "Pro-Painted" models I have seen are utter garbage and I would be ashamed to call them my own if they were, my models which turn out better then many so called "pro-Painted" are what I call table Top Standard at best, "Pro-Painted" models are ones I call very nice that you don't play games with, mine are done good but can be played with in games.

I contacted HG:
 
It has been well over three years since this game has funded, only about half of the promised rewards have been shipped, and Palladium has not shown any evidence of progress.  I WAS a fan of Robotech, but the lack of progress on this game has pretty much killed my care of this fictional world.  Sorry  you chose a poor company to carry the IP into a game, but you may wish to revoke their license to prevent further damage to your property.
 

Their Reply

We're looking into a solution this year. We can't announce anything yet but we're hoping to have something concrete this summer.

Simbieda has been "hoping" (note, same language as HG) for a miracle for three years.

Is hope now a business plan?

Apparently it is.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
We're looking into a solution this year. We can't announce anything yet but we're hoping to have something concrete this summer.

Are you sure you did not contact Kevin by mistake?
It sure sounds like him...

I agree that the word "hope" is a very unfortunate choice in business plans (or lack thereof).
Anything I actually set out to do has very little need for hope: it just bloody happens or I have something more important to do that interrupts that work.
I am sure for most other people, results would not vary all that much.

So to not have something more concrete now but can wait for the summer is a choice.
RRT is obviously not even in the top 3 of importance or we would see some actual movement.

I tend to phrase my unhappiness letters with:

"I would just LOVE to spend a TON of money on your IP products but you just don't let me.
Why is my supply of mouth watering product not happening?
I have plenty of your old stuff... I want NEW!!!
You fix this and I will be more than happy to hand you my wallet!!!!
P.S. The newer stuff you made is nice and all but where is the cool stuff you said you would make?
I believe in you and I am waiting until that day.
- Kindest regards your super-fan".

Oh, that hurts to write.
A small piece of my soul withers and dies...

Hope got overhyped and became meaningless after Obama's first term. At least HG and PB are sort of catching up with the times.

HG's response sounds so much like what we've been hearing from PB and it's no wonder the two are associated with each other. They're both good at doing feth all with their IPs and have trouble delivering unless nearly all of the work has already been done and even then odds are good that they're going to muck it up.

If only these two companies would just die already and free up the IPs.

The RTT backers have hoped to get their stuff for the past 3 years and nothing...
I really think that with the non information and constant delays we are no closer to
getting our stuff this year as we were 3 years ago.

Harmony Gold is just a IP company, they get their money and don't care..just like
the lone ranger heroclix.. no one bought them but Disney got paid..

But looking at Kevin's E bay page apparently he invested heavily into Vintage star wars
figures.. We invest into his company to make the RTT product and he buys star wars
stuff... Maybe we should have done the same..

Today we should get another non update; no real surprises.. just him beating the drum
of how great the Rifts board game is going to be that he has nothing to do with..

You mean the update that is already up?

So many words about work.

So little evidence of work.

Lol.

 Talizvar wrote:

"I would just LOVE to spend a TON of money on your IP products but you just don't let me.
Why is my supply of mouth watering product not happening?
I have plenty of your old stuff... I want NEW!!!
You fix this and I will be more than happy to hand you my wallet!!!!
P.S. The newer stuff you made is nice and all but where is the cool stuff you said you would make?
I believe in you and I am waiting until that day.
- Kindest regards your super-fan".

Oh, that hurts to write.
A small piece of my soul withers and dies...

Well, you know...

From the new newsletter/sales add:

"Coming Later in 2017 and 2018
Lopan™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Adventure Sourcebook
Lopanic Games™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Sourcebook
Robotech® RPG: Ghost Fleet Saga™ Sourcebook
Robotech® RPG Tactics™: Wave 2 expansion packs
Robotech® RPG Tactics™: Scenario Book One and events
Rifts® Sovietski™ World Book
Rifts® Haunted Tech™ Sourcebook – Rescheduled
Chaos Earth® First Responders
Splicers® Sourcebooks
Heroes Unlimited™ Sourcebooks
Nightbane® Sourcebook
Beyond the Supernatural™ Sourcebooks
Rifts® World Books and Sourcebooks, including Rifts® New Navy, Rifts® Antarctica, and others.
And some big surprises coming this summer and fall"

They're already making the move to move it to next year. At least they didn't double down on this year for everything again........

 megatrons2nd wrote:
From the new newsletter/sales add:

"Coming Later in 2017 and 2018
Lopan™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Adventure Sourcebook
Lopanic Games™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Sourcebook
Robotech® RPG: Ghost Fleet Saga™ Sourcebook
Robotech® RPG Tactics™: Wave 2 expansion packs
Robotech® RPG Tactics™: Scenario Book One and events
Rifts® Sovietski™ World Book
Rifts® Haunted Tech™ Sourcebook – Rescheduled
Chaos Earth® First Responders
Splicers® Sourcebooks
Heroes Unlimited™ Sourcebooks
Nightbane® Sourcebook
Beyond the Supernatural™ Sourcebooks
Rifts® World Books and Sourcebooks, including Rifts® New Navy, Rifts® Antarctica, and others.
And some big surprises coming this summer and fall"

They're already making the move to move it to next year. At least they didn't double down on this year for everything again........

They still list five books in the next 4.5 months, two (arguably three) of them from last year's "In the first six months of 2016" list. Given that they only got two books done for 2016, and the first barely inside 6 months, the second barely by EoY, and with it being declared they're actively spending time dealing with the Rifts Boardgame (but it's not them running it, pinky swear!), it's pretty much a given, I think.

The math is pretty simple. They started receiving PPP's for Wave 1 end of December 2013. They started receiving digital parts breakdowns around mid February 2014, test sprues mid April 2014, June 18 before they started Manufacturing, July 4th before they REALLY started Manufacturing, supposed to arrive August 8th (but incomplete, because they always were intending to GenCon it), ended up shipping end of August, REALLY started shipping start of October. And then there was the length of time to complete shipping, less said the better.

So, that's 9 months, give or take, start to finish, once they started receiving PPP's. And that was when everyone was excited and enthused, not weary and just wanting to get it over with. While yes, the production run will be smaller per unit (both because of what's necessary to fufill backer rewards and unlikelihood of overproducing for retail), there's approximately twice as many models that have to go through the development process. This will probably extend the timeline overall, but I'll be generous and call it a wash.

Nine months from now, is mid November. Assuming they start getting PPP's this week. So, until they start showing PPP's, the clock is paused.

Now, they COULD get stuff done faster, by shipping it piecemeal (run a few sprues to completion and ship those as they fill each container), but all that means is either having a big pile at PB, or more controversially, retailing it immediately as they wait on the rest of the runs to complete Kickstarter pledges. Because words have no meanings, and Backers First was a suggestion, not a promise.

The more I think of it, the more I think it's likely, if Wave 2 does see print. Because with what I see as the likely glut of stuff once Wave 2 delivers, it might be the only way they can get retail pricing in the first year or so. And because when it comes to PB, you can't go wrong betting on the option where they step on their own dicks.

The only thing I can think of that'd be worse, is them rushing through the approval process, and ending up with flawed sprues, whether it be misaligned parts, missing parts (oh, we didn't notice it was missing a torso!), poor flow controls (shortshotting) etc. That'd be peak Palladium. So put me down for a fiver on that happening.

They're so dedicated to their release schedule that they haven't even bothered naming their BTS sourcebooks. Or most of the others. Which is beyond hilarity.

"We don't know what we'll call it or what it'll be about, but we're totes doing a Heroes Unlimited(TM, BIATCH!) sourcebook this year.

Merijeek wrote:
They're so dedicated to their release schedule that they haven't even bothered naming their BTS sourcebooks. Or most of the others. Which is beyond hilarity.

"We don't know what we'll call it or what it'll be about, but we're totes doing a Heroes Unlimited(TM, BIATCH!) sourcebook this year.

I don't know. I find this one to be the most ludicrous.
"Rifts® Heroes of Humanity™ ARSENAL – 96 or 128 pages"

So, you're about three weeks from going to the printer (Hell Followed took 3 weeks from going to the printer Nov20th, to arriving at PBHQ Dec9th) if they're to meet their schedule. And you still don't know a page count? Meaning you've got to either excise up to 25% of your work, or pad your existing work by up to 33%. And then get it editted, formatted, etc. No wonder PB have a reputation for being both slapdash as feth, and missing pretty much every timeline estimate they set.

Well, now. Don't go over thinking it.

You're assuming that there's some thought to these lists, and it's not just a case of Kevin's little minions copying and pasting the same crap month after month and year after year.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't expect anything from PB (except them continuing to do the worst thing in any given situations). Just pointing out the PB insistence on pretending they're handled in a competent manner, or that they're in any way important (except as a cautionary tale), continues to remain funny to me.

I had another look at the PBWU (my eyes tend to glaze over when I try and read it all at once), and I notice that even though Kevin has said he's only personally attending CoastCon in three weeks, and GenCon, there was "A lot of this week was devoted to convention arrangements" including Adepticon.

So it looks like he's schlepping Wayne off to deal with any disgruntled, and push RRT as if it's in some way relevant. Even though, six weeks out, there are no games listed under "robotech", "rrt" or "palladium". I'm reminded of the Jeb Bush "please clap" moment. That's how I see Wayne, sitting at the PB booth, with a pile of stock for an all but dead game, knowing Kevin will probably be sitting at home expecting him to return with a suitcase of cash.

They're also planning to attend the Alliance Trade Show. Given how little has been done for RRT in the last almost three years, anyone want to bet that they don't go solely to push the Rifts BoardGame? But totally nothing to do with Palladium! They swear!

Also, assuming words mean anything (and no, with PB, I don't count on it), they're also intending on going to "and others". Plural means at least two, which means again, Wayne schlepping off to some location to try and reinvigorate interest in this turkey, while Kevin sits at home and imagines the suitcase of cash that's coming to him. Because, after all, who WOULDN'T buy RRT, given it's massive following?

Ah well, still under "review" at RRT.
Nothing deleted so I have not been too bad.
Maybe I will be permanently on the status of "being worked on".
It would be oddly fitting.
I had intentionally kept my "name" as a link here since KS is mainly gaming for me.
I bet my review does not prevent me from investing in other KS's, they so love having their cake and eat it too.
I am sure the mods here would take the boots to me the same way "financially contributing member" or not: that is respectable.

I was working on some models for RRT last night, maybe I was spending too much time commenting and not enough doing.

 Forar wrote:
Realistically, I don't think they will, because they saw how Savage Rifts went and they know that enough of the KS backer base either doesn't care or is actively hostile to the critique.

Well, a big difference between Savage Rifts and Rifts: The Boardgame is the company behind it, although a good number of KS backers still think KS is a store.

I've noticed that new companies and companies with otherwise poor reputations (eg. Archon / Prodos) will still pull in 200K+ on a miniatures boardgame project.

ced1106 wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Realistically, I don't think they will, because they saw how Savage Rifts went and they know that enough of the KS backer base either doesn't care or is actively hostile to the critique.

Well, a big difference between Savage Rifts and Rifts: The Boardgame is the company behind it, although a good number of KS backers still think KS is a store.

I've noticed that new companies and companies with otherwise poor reputations (eg. Archon / Prodos) will still pull in 200K+ on a miniatures boardgame project.

Not sure what you mean by this, because while it's not a store in the traditional sense, it's not a charity either. You put in money, you're owed rewards, and if the Creator can't provide it, a refund, or a good explanation as to why not. While the legal protections are a lot more lax (mainly due to it being a legal grey area that hasn't been legislated yet), there's not a lot of difference mechanically between how a Kickstarter works, and how a store taking pre-orders does. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the argument "It's a donation!", just doesn't hold muster, by Kickstarter's own terms and conditions (even though again, the legal framework is still needing scrutiny). It's only a donation if you choose not to select a reward. That some Creators abuse it, is no different to illegal actions some real stores take too. It's just harder to challenge, until/if the courts catch up.

Hope I didn't come across overly harsh, but the "It's not a store!" argument is one that I fething loathe, especially when used to defend drekky companies abusing the system, like PB's "We're saying we're totally working on it, therefore you're not entitled to a refund!" bulldrek. It's also not an investment (because again, we would have certain legal rights then), nor is it seemingly not a mail-order, though the FTC's rules not seeming to see it that way yet. However, it doesn't exclude it either. Of the four exemptions listed, a Kickstarter is not typically, a "subscription service", nor "seeds or growing plants", nor "C.O.D.", nor subject to the "Prenotification of Negative Option Rule". Just because the FTC hasn't challenged PB despite them being in breach of refund rules (which they could argue Kickstarter supercedes), and the Shipment Representation/Option Rule (which they'd have a much harder time arguing).

Just for clarification, here's the pertinents of the Shipment Representation/Option Rule. All of this can be found in the FTC link above.
Shipment Representation requires a shipment date. Either specified (in this case, December 2013), or 30 days if no date is given. Failure to meet that date, brings up this clause.
"When you learn that you cannot ship on time, you must decide whether you will ever be able to ship the order. If you decide that you cannot, you must promptly cancel the order and make a full refund. (this is the same as the KS T&C)
If you decide you can ship the order later, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delay. You may use whatever means you wish to do this -- such as the telephone, fax, mail, or email -- as long as you notify the customer of the delay reasonably quickly. The customer must have sufficient advance notification to make a meaningful decision to consent to the delay or cancel the order."

The Option Rule... well, it speaks for itself.
"In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:
- a definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide a revised shipment date;
- a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund; and
- some means for the customer to choose to cancel at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card, toll-free telephone number, or website).
- the following information when you cannot provide a revised shipping date:
- - the reason for the delay, and
- - a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship the merchandise."

Again, just because it's not being enforced, doesn't mean that PB aren't in breach. Much like certain aspects of the internet when it comes to different laws regarding telecommunications took some time to sort through.

Sorry if that came across as ranty. It's a topic that I'd previously done a lot of research into after getting screwed more than once (but not more than twice, so far).

Kickstarter is a platform where you give money in expectations of getting a return. Many (most?) KS have the option to simply donate money without expectation of return. THAT is a donation.

Basically, anyone who chose any rewards in the pledge manager was not making a donation, but rather an investment. And people typically have to answer when investments go awry, especially where fraud of some sort is suspected.

It would be interesting to see how sketchy Kevin's business plan was going into the KS. Given how the original renders were not compatible with the mold maker's software, they cannot have gotten proper quotes before the KS started.

Unless they changed manufacturers.

 n815e wrote:
Unless they changed manufacturers.

That tends to be the theory.

"Here's a place that can get it done to specification, for this price."
"Can we source it cheaper? *looks* This place says they can do it for pennies on the dollar! Cancel the other manufacturer we had lined up to start within 45 days of the campaign closing!"

Though, to be fair, the delay in plastics manufacture wasm't the only big deal in terms of it not being where PB said they were. Why? Because PB (and HG with their extensively delayed approvals, at least according to Kevin's statements) still took well past the end of 2013 to get all the paper/cardboard products finalized. When you're still writing the rulebook into January, you can't say you missed your deadline because the manufacturers aren't on the ball.

Well I guess it is good we try to rationalize this.
I cannot see any excuse for a plan to deliver the product to last this long.
I guess we have seen for years and recently that a lie worth saying once seems like truth when repeated enough.
If you must lie, doubling down is the way to go.

But Pa Pa Kevin promises he is working on RTT and we only
need to buy the Rifts Board game because he is not working on it.

 Genoside07 wrote:
But Pa Pa Kevin promises he is working on RTT and we only
need to buy the Rifts Board game because he is not working on it.

As I said over on the Kickstarter Commentary...

#128, Jan 30 2014 "WAVE TWO Kickstarter Fullfillment – Fall, 2014 – The balance of ALL the remaining Kickstarter items should ship by October"
#167, Jan 14 2015 "Wave Two is coming in 2015."
#190, Jan 30 2016 "As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you."
#196, Feb 4 2017 "But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017."

But they really mean it this time! Really! Why won't people believe them!

At least he's consistent.

Morgan Vening wrote:

#128, Jan 30 2014 "WAVE TWO Kickstarter Fullfillment – Fall, 2014 – The balance of ALL the remaining Kickstarter items should ship by October"
#167, Jan 14 2015 "Wave Two is coming in 2015."
#190, Jan 30 2016 "As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you."
#196, Feb 4 2017 "But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017."
But they really mean it this time! Really! Why won't people believe them!

At least he's consistent.

I think this is where I said we had objective evidence of that lying... speaking of which, I should see if I am still "under review" time-out.

I must say the artwork (model and page/card) looks good for the Rifts Board-game.
I am sure this will be much like the Savage Worlds KS where bringing up RRT will "sour their mellow".
Noticed a note there on Facebook:

Stephen Schneider:
Take as long as you need. Take a long, as long, as you need. Still out 600 bucks for Robotech. So I'd rather wait until you know that you know that you have all your ducks in a row before I become a backer. Good Luck.
February 10 at 3:42pm

Rogue Heroes Studio:
My thought exactly, I want all the basic work on the game completed be for I ever go to kickstarter, that way I only have to deal with the inevitable manufacturing issues that every kickstarter seems to face. With all the sculpting and art work completed we can go guns blazing into the manufacturing and deal with any problems without also having to wait on sculpting and art. The more things I can have completed pre-kickstarter the better!

Carmen does realize he is echoing a bit the RRT KS as it started?
I thought for best practices they are to show actual product a finished "prototype" and not just 3D renders?
I am rather, not sure if I am "impressed" is the word but that Stephen is even considering looking at this even though being out $600 from RRT.
Talk about turning the other cheek... a "better" person than I.

I did a trip down memory lane for a bit, I went back to 2013 and 2014 and read their weekly updates for RRT.
I copied and linked some stuff and then decided to delete most of those efforts... it will only enrage, trust me.
Having read so much I can see that the "enthusiasm" was minimal... always... it only perked up when it looked like they had something to sell.

I must say they can take a sale and run it for months, between the Christmas Surprise, their Spring Cleaning Sales, Open House and the Rifter I read about them one more time I may vomit.

See this post, it seems the most eloquent example of this:
They announced sale of the RRT product prior to my receiving shipment in December.

It seemed only yesterday Kevin asked for the "Restart" or was that demanded? June 6 2015.
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=52&Itemid=183&limitstart=90

Yep pretty much ignored (other than going on sale a couple times 1/2 price!!!!) from June 2015 to Feb 2017.

I really have to say that Carmen's efforts fall under guilty by association and being an active "participant" in RRT's "success".

^but honest...carmen says and adamantly so that he had NOTHING to do with the rrt kickstarter.....

/sarcasm

Apart from being a lead rules designer and supposed FAQ guru - we saw what happenned there.

However, by the strictest sense it is true, he actual Kickstarter campaign, thesubsequent decisions on manufacturing and communications were not in his remit.

Trouble is if you stand next to sewage long enough the smell rubs off on you.

Carmen promises to have most work done and everything almost complete before the kickstarter starts..
Wasn't we promised during the RTT kickstarter that everything was about 98% done and only needed the
money to kick off production.
I wish the man well and hope he gets what he wants... Careful what you ask for.. you might just get it..
But not going to give the Rifts Board game a real look over until i see it in my FLGS;

Since the original RTT plastics were made, what else have they really produced since?? Digital content is all I can think
of and most is assembly instructions,painting guides and such...So no real cost to Palladium games since everyone working on it
is already on the payroll and most of it should have rolled out with the actual game.

Both scenarios look very bad the way I see it:

- Say the kickstarter goes perfectly. So if their in-house guy manages to crank-out a bunch of miniatures, there is no excuse for RRT. Separation from PB may be key.

- Say the kickstarter goes the realm of RRT. Kickstarter would well and truly be dead to them (one would think).

- Actually I figured out one more scenario: it does not fund. That would be the unlikely event (if goal set stupid low) but would be a fine message for PB that this golden goose is done.

Carmen has made his bed with PB and I really have no sympathy for him.
He is an "enabler" for Kevin and will happily pull another RRT if it suited Kevin's purpose.
Heck, how many "pre-orders" have you seen sit for years on the PB site, that is evidence enough.

 Talizvar wrote:
- Actually I figured out one more scenario: it does not fund. That would be the unlikely event (if goal set stupid low) but would be a fine message for PB that this golden goose is done.

The problem with setting a low goal (anything less than say $100K), is it runs into the bigger problem of it it DOES fund.

RiftsBG funds at $50K, and assuming $100 backer levels, that's probably worse than it not funding. Because games like this run on an economy of scale. Running production on a "professional" boardgame for ~500 backers is just not going to be financially viable. Probably just the art and sculpt costs are going to be more than that, and production is based on volume. I remember Forar talking about calendars a friend of their's made, where the quantity ordered was X, and getting something like triple that number was literally dollars more. Not dollars per unit. Dollars total.

If Carmen doesn't set a realistic total for initial funding, hoping that a low initial target gets the "hype" thing happening, he's opening himself up to failure. I mean, even RRT. The initial goal was $70K. If that's all they'd gotten, there was no way they'd have done what they were initially offering. So... it could be an immediate disaster (fails to fund), a quick disaster (funds, but not enough to produce, and he admits and refunds), or any multitude of slow disasters. And as Tali said, even if it's a success for Carmen, all that's going to do is make PB look even worse.