Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In that we will agree though it will cause potential work providers to think twice regardless.

 n815e wrote:
Leave Carmen alone.
His career isn't ruined. He can be stronger than ever after this.

Kevin hit the lowest notes in this entire saga with that update.
Rick is right behind him.

actually yes it could effect his career since employers especially those in a highly stressful job which has timelines and such are prone to avoid hiring those who are prone to suicide or severe depression and such, since neither they nor their insurance wants to be liable for a relapse or incident. and while they won't say that is why they are not hiring him, they will just tell him he is not be considered for the position and such, and anyone in the gaming industry will know soon enough about this instance. furthermore his mental health will also effect any loans he wishes to make and so on.

 n815e wrote:
No, he didn't. But mental health issues don't make a person weak or incapable of succeeding.

Agreed.

Pardon a touch of tone policing, but it's a bit early to say that his career is definitively over in the past tense. The man is still recovering, and deserves naught but support during a difficult time.

How about we lay off the ghoulish declarations of Kevin ending Carmen's career until it's actually over (whenever that might be, under whatever circumstances that might be).

Was this update helpful? Probably not. Might it harm his prospects, at least in the short term? Maybe.

It's not difficulty to coach ones language and sentiment with even a thin veneer of optimism and an open mind.

Or at least fake it convincingly while we wait to hear the prognosis. I certainly haven't seen further info detailing precisely what happened (nor is it any of my damned business, of course), but proclaiming the immense harm done to Carmen's career before we even see evidence of that is just another side to the coin of using his personal tragedy to put forth a narrative that fits our preconceived notions.

I think we can all agree Kevin was a massive donkey cave in that update.

Let's try to be less like Kevin, eh?

"Leave Carmen alone. "

No, his actions and words have consequences just like everyone else.

 Swabby wrote:
"Leave Carmen alone. "

No, his actions and words have consequences just like everyone else.

I'm pretty sure he's already faced those consequences. Enough is enough.
Carmens post was full of red flags, i wish I had done more to calm him. One of those situations where you wish you could pick up a phone and just go, operator get me the number for Carmen it's an emergency.
This $1 pledge business is just stupid, it achieves nothing.
This was a man so fired up he barely made sense.

Not even a little bit true. What it would accomplish would be to warn potential backers about who and what they were dealing with.

Some people even offered helpful advice - decouple from the millstone of Kevin Simbieda.

The $1 pledge business is a lighthouse to steer people away from the rocks, and regardless of what is going on in Carmen's personal life (where all of this should have stayed honestly) it is important to future investors to know what they are getting into.

This wasn't the end of this portion of the saga I was expecting, though looking back, Carmen's abrupt exit from the conversation is more ominous.

I think more than enough damage has been done by all parties. As much as I hate what's become of this mess, Carmen didn't need to become a victim as well. I'm not trying to defend Carmen's words - I think he was clearly in the wrong - but it's just a sad state what resulted from his actions.

Blaming him, the backers or Kevin for what happened helps no one.

*sigh* On a side note, I find Kevin's "update" infuriating and self-serving. Too much time spent on back-pedalling and promoting vaporware; too long before he gets to the real point that should have been made - Carmen's well-being.

Merijeek wrote:Not even a little bit true. What it would accomplish would be to warn potential backers about who and what they were dealing with.

Some people even offered helpful advice - decouple from the millstone of Kevin Simbieda.

That's impossible when you're doing a KS based on his IP isn't it? Especially when you're a brand new company with a known history of being a fan-friend. At least savage worlds had released some stuff before their PB IP KS so they had already established their own brand-space in peoples minds. Carmen has no such luxury.

Swabby wrote:The $1 pledge business is a lighthouse to steer people away from the rocks, and regardless of what is going on in Carmen's personal life (where all of this should have stayed honestly) it is important to future investors to know what they are getting into.

I have to agree with Swabby on this. I didn't take part when Carmen started posting on the KS discussion board, mostly because I haven't posted there for ages since it seems futile. However, I was planning to warn people away from any potential PB-related KS, especially from a 'new' company which closely affiliated with PB and Kevin. That hasn't really changed. While it's sad that Carmen tried to commit suicide, it ultimately hasn't changed my opinion that any new KS related to PB has a very high chance of failing.

What the absolute feth?

I haven't been following RRT really, either here or on the comments. Because well, Kevin and Palladium. SO I got the update. Something about a guy called Carmen, who posted something something something, presumably in the RRT KS comments? and then attempted suicide? The update pretty much being 50% Kevin telling us what a good guy Carmen is and 50% Kevin laying into Carmen/throwing him under the bus.

I've read the last couple of pages of this thread, but I'm still scratching my head...

WTF Just Happened?

All it did was to play straight into Kevin's hands, his complaints of vindictive backers is proved correct. The Beasts of War article practically writes itself.

 Stormonu wrote:
This wasn't the end of this portion of the saga I was expecting, though looking back, Carmen's abrupt exit from the conversation is more ominous.

I think more than enough damage has been done by all parties. As much as I hate what's become of this mess, Carmen didn't need to become a victim as well. I'm not trying to defend Carmen's words - I think he was clearly in the wrong - but it's just a sad state what resulted from his actions.

Blaming him, the backers or Kevin for what happened helps no one.

*sigh* On a side note, I find Kevin's "update" infuriating and self-serving. Too much time spent on back-pedalling and promoting vaporware; too long before he gets to the real point that should have been made - Carmen's well-being.

the problem is most of the vitriol was not aimed at Carmen in particular, but at PB and their IP, I even told him he would be better off doing his own game and IP item, but from what i can gather he had serious issues before hand and when he saw the hate for PB he realized (my summization) that he may have backed the wrong pony.

Joyboozer wrote:
All it did was to play straight into Kevin's hands, his complaints of vindictive backers is proved correct. The Beasts of War article practically writes itself.

Beasts of War stopped covering RRT a long time ago after the unboxing incident. (which also involved Carmen)

 Digclaw wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
All it did was to play straight into Kevin's hands, his complaints of vindictive backers is proved correct. The Beasts of War article practically writes itself.

Beasts of War stopped covering RRT a long time ago after the unboxing incident. (which also involved Carmen)

They love anything the shows customers in a bad light, it's how they keep in good with the game companies. I guarantee its in the green room.
And to make it worse, it's justified.

and after everyone gets told to deescalate the situation what does akashic soldier do?
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=152872

I like how he thinks it's just so easy to convert it into a PC game

At least this happened *before* the KS. I imagine that during the KS, comments would be *MUCH* worse, or at least hard to handle -- Nobody's going to censor posts on KS like Palladium supporters may be used to be seeing on the Palladium forums. I wonder if he actually *believes* that the censored version on the Palladium forums would be his reception on KS. Running and fulfilling a KS is *extremely* stressful, and if he considers or tries to commit suicide after two hours of KS backlash on RRT, I think there's a much greater chance he'd carry it out during (or after) a RIFTS boardgame KS.

Remember this quote: "I read nothing but posts here how everyone wants to kill my KS (my personal dream) and if that happens I hope the RRT burns." That certainly did not endear him to RRT KS backers. I'm not surprised that Carmen needs help. I can't see anyone "normal" being able to work or put up with Kevin on a regular basis. If PEG can release an RPG based on the Rifts IP, another professional company can work with Carmen and Palladium to create a RIFTS boardgame.

Another way of looking at it is that it prevents Carmen from working with anyone else but Unca Kevvy.

Asterios wrote:

 n815e wrote:
Leave Carmen alone.
His career isn't ruined. He can be stronger than ever after this.

Kevin hit the lowest notes in this entire saga with that update.
Rick is right behind him.

actually yes it could effect his career since employers especially those in a highly stressful job which has timelines and such are prone to avoid hiring those who are prone to suicide or severe depression and such, since neither they nor their insurance wants to be liable for a relapse or incident. and while they won't say that is why they are not hiring him, they will just tell him he is not be considered for the position and such, and anyone in the gaming industry will know soon enough about this instance. furthermore his mental health will also effect any loans he wishes to make and so on.

 Azazelx wrote:
WTF Just Happened?

Briefly - Carmen Bellaire has freelanced for Palladium over the years, including on RRT. He started his own company and purchased a license from PB to do a Rifts board game called Rogue Heroes. He planned to seek funding via KS and RRT backers made it known that they would warn off potential Rogue Heroes backers. Mr. Bellaire posted in the RRT KS comments section that if RRT backers would refrain from interfering with Rogue Heroes then he would use his alleged knowledge and connections to "fix" the RRT mess. If RRT backers did warn people off Rogue Stars, however, he promised to let RRT "burn." RRT backers reacted negatively and Mr. Bellaire stopped posting. Then rumors started to spread of Mr. Bellaire having some kind of medical problems. Ultimately, Mr. Siembieda posted an update to the RRT KS disclaiming that Mr. Bellaire had never made any threats regarding RRT, that all he really meant was that if Rogue Heroes was successful then he could devote his full time to game development, including informally helping with RRT, and that RRT backers' reactions to his bumbling words were so hurtful, it had caused him to attempt suicide,

While this entire situation seems to have spun way out of control, and I do wish Carmen success in healing and hope that he can recover from this dreadful event.

However, my question is why was/is there such a bloody obsession with Kickstarter being the end all be all for the success of the RIFTS Board Game? I get that you can generate a lot of cash in the Kickstarter format, but the "KS is not a store" goes both ways. And what I mean by that statement is that I won't back a game based on vague promises, appeals to nostalgia, or a sappy sob story (referring to Carmen's 'lifelong dream' story). I NEED a product to look at, examine and judge, and none of these were possible with the RIFTS game.

I have backed a lot of games on KS, and I will back due to mechanics/rules, what I perceive as production value, and potential playability within my group. I've been burned before (Horror on the Orient express....and RRT), and I've found absolute gems (Dragonstone Mine, Valeria), and not pledged despite nostalgia (Ghostbusters, and TMNT). In each of these games, there has been a print and play version/rules easily accessible, an ACTUAL product (usually minis), and video reviews from Tom Vasel, et al, or a video play test of the game.

For RIFTS board game, I've found none of these, other than some 3-D renders on the FB page and a vague promise of greatness, and comparisons to Zombiecide, and Descent. (I wish there was a shrugging Ork). So it seems he would generate the capital and the game would take shape during the campaign? or afterwards with input from the backers. I'm sorry, but that's no way to run a campaign.

My RRT models act as "paint time" with my 2 year old (easing here into the hobby early ) and little else. I've given up on any return of investment from this game (and no, I did not find it a fun or intuitively mechanical game, generally plagued with the clunkiness of the RIFTS/Palladium system from the 90's when I used to play)

WtF. Seriously, I hope Carmen gets the help he needs, but people really need to understand that their anger is misplaced at Carmen. Now, while Carmen should have just left it alone and not even stepped into the viper pit...I'm honestly shocked how that he didn't know what to expect. I suppose if you work on something and move on..you aren't privy to the crap storm that followed...but seriously..why even bother rocking the boat? Ignore the people, forge on, and do the best you can in your own KS. Who cares what several people think about your connection to PB? Prove them wrong by releasing a good game. Results will shut down any nay-sayers or at least will make them look dumb. He should of focused on that instead of poking the bear. Now, that being said...the level of rage lobbed in his direction was really childish and petty. We get it. People are pissed about wave 2 not getting out. There is mountains of rage already about it across several forums. I think it's time to move on. Everything has been said and talked to death regarding this...so why waste the energy? Unless people decide to pursue legal avenues that are actually going to stick...it's all a waste of time. PB screwed over 5000+ people. The fact that their business can't grow is evidence enough that their failing at the RRT kickstarter has damaged their company to near beyond repair. Nothing will save them at this point. Isn't that revenge enough for the people that want their pound of flesh from Kevin? You aren't getting your money back. Not unless a judge orders it. So any further rage is wasted time in an echo chamber. Hopefully Carmen realizes that forging his own path without PB or Kevin is probably a better way to go. I'll be honest and say I'll be disappointed if this board game doesn't get made...because I think it had potential. The model renderings looked awesome. Oh well. Get well soon Carmen. I don't agree with what you did...but mental illness is a serious problem in this country and hopefully you get treatment.

NMI is really a piece of work, isn't he?

TBH I am grateful to the people who have kept the pressure on Palladium and Kevin Siembieda while backers like myself have largely moved on. I am grateful to them for fighting my battle for me, while I ignored it.

Someone mentioned earlier ITT that Palladium was lucky that none of the RRT backers are lawyers. Well, I am actually a lawyer. I have no interest in filing a lawsuit against Palladium at this point. BUT I do have an interest - obviously so - in getting the backer rewards Palladium promised to deliver in consideration of my pledge. Once you strip the marketing hokum off, what we have here is a purchase order: I pay you X and you hand over Y. I have paid X - where is Y? Whether Palladium has breached that contract is a legal question that they may be forced to defend at some point.

Until that point, however, someone needs to make sure this doesn't get swept under the rug. Someone needs to keep a record of all the deception. Someone needs to point out that year after year of saying "we will deliver by the end of this year" is not good enough - in fact, that it is outrageous and that a company taking this position cannot be trusted to do anything else until it sorts out this standing issue.

There are some RRT backers who have done that. I salute them. Blaming Carmen Bellaire's mental problems and suicide attempt on those backers is the most morally despicable public act of Kevin Siembieda, a man who already has a reputation as a bully and a liar.

To Carmen Bellaire - please take this opportunity to cut Kevin Siembieda out of your life.

TBH I am grateful to the people who have kept the pressure on Palladium and Kevin Siembieda while backers like myself have largely moved on. I am grateful to them for fighting my battle for me, while I ignored it.

And that's fine. But you are also handling it like an adult. How many times can people rage about PB when everything that's been said...has been said a million times.

Someone mentioned earlier ITT that Palladium was lucky that none of the RRT backers are lawyers. Well, I am actually a lawyer. I have no interest in filing a lawsuit against Palladium at this point. BUT I do have an interest - obviously so - in getting the backer rewards Palladium promised to deliver in consideration of my pledge. Once you strip the marketing hokum off, what we have here is a purchase order: I pay you X and you hand over Y. I have paid X - where is Y? Whether Palladium has breached that contract is a legal question that they may be forced to defend at some point.

Agreed. However, if any backer thinks they are getting a full refund at this point is deluding themselves. I don't think it will ever get to that point. I really don't. Not unless the laws regarding a KS changes in the eyes of the FTC. Until such a day...this will continue. TBH, I really see PB closing it's doors before that happens. Either way, nobody will get their full amount of money back. I just don't see it as a reality at this point.

Until that point, however, someone needs to make sure this doesn't get swept under the rug. Someone needs to keep a record of all the deception. Someone needs to point out that year after year of saying "we will deliver by the end of this year" is not good enough - in fact, that it is outrageous and that a company taking this position cannot be trusted to do anything else until it sorts out this standing issue.

I have no problems with keeping this thing from being swept under the rug...but I think that can be done without rehashing the same old hateraide for PB. Like I said, I think collectively, we've all said as much as we can about how we loathe these people. Going forward, it should be nothing else but presenting facts and leave the rage out of it.

There are some RRT backers who have done that. I salute them. Blaming Carmen Bellaire's mental problems and suicide attempt on those backers is the most morally despicable public act of Kevin Siembieda, a man who already has a reputation as a bully and a liar.

Agreed. However, I don't think it helped either. There are more productive ways to handle your rage.

To Carmen Bellaire - please take this opportunity to cut Kevin Siembieda out of your life.

Agreed.

 TalonZahn wrote:
NMI is really a piece of work, isn't he?

I am afraid but will bite: in what regard?
Since I find myself increasingly interacting with him, I should probably need to know.

Manchu,

As a lawyer, even if you are not interested in starting a case, would you be interested in helping the people who do want to move forward with legal action? I fear most of us are ignorant of how the legal system really works and are kind of stumbling in the dark hopeless during all these talks we have had over the years about potential action.

At this point I do not believe Kevin will lift a finger to complete this project, especially now that the backers have been demonized over this situation.

Swabby - at this time, I have no interest in being professionally involved in any KS-related lawsuits.

so.. is that KS short for Kevin Siembieda or short for KickStarter

Applies to both!

In short, I think the most effective way of dealing with this right now is to cut PB off from using crowdfunding platforms to fund further projects involving PB by warning potential backers of how PB has handled RRT.

That would include - IMO at least - PB-licensed projects like Rogue Heroes in addition to PB's own products.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
However, if any backer thinks they are getting a full refund at this point is deluding themselves.

I agree - inasmuch as fees and costs of pursuing litigation would eat into the $1.4M at issue, plus some rewards have been delivered.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
I have no problems with keeping this thing from being swept under the rug...but I think that can be done without rehashing the same old hateraide for PB.

Yes, there are some things we would need to establish -

(1) Kevin Siembieda obviously does love RoboTech and I think he went into this sincerely wanting to put out a stellar product line.

(2) A significant portion of the KS has been fulfilled and the quality of that portion, while debatable in detail, is not substantially less than promised.

Personally, I think the game is fun. I think the models are fiddly but once you get them together they definitely look like they should. I am pretty pleased with what I have gotten.

The problem is, there is a lot more to go and Kevin Siembieda/PB have not made any meaningful progress on getting there.

 Jacall wrote:
However, my question is why was/is there such a bloody obsession with Kickstarter being the end all be all for the success of the RIFTS Board Game? I get that you can generate a lot of cash in the Kickstarter format, but the "KS is not a store" goes both ways.

The long and short of it is that in the over saturated market that is boardgames (in general), trying to score a success without having a major publishing house's support and without a track record in design is incredibly hard. This isn't specific to Rifts, it's across the board.

Practically, it's not about print runs or quality of parts, because those are relatively easy problems to solve; printing is relatively cheap nowadays and you can usually find innovative alternatives for parts if you work at it hard enough. It's all about breaking into that distribution channel and getting the brand recognition to get enough buys to become a hit. Brand recognition, traditional shipping and distribution networks remains a largely closed environment that is a huge competitive advantage for traditional publishing houses, and smaller startups face a very uphill challenge to surmount that.

KS is the shortcut in two ways. First, it generate interest and recognition; two, it generate funding. With funding, a company can hope to tackle shipping and distribution in low volumes to reach out to more people. So KS -- crowdfunding in general -- is in many sense a criticality to many such companies.

 Jacall wrote:
I have backed a lot of games on KS, and I will back due to mechanics/rules, what I perceive as production value, and potential playability within my group. I've been burned before (Horror on the Orient express....and RRT), and I've found absolute gems (Dragonstone Mine, Valeria), and not pledged despite nostalgia (Ghostbusters, and TMNT).

You won't but nostalgia is a big draw for a lot of people. So yes, that does work; veteran KS backers tend to be wary of empty promises projects, but we all get suckered in every once in a while. Obviously, RRT is an example.