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A little nostalgia is what brought me to Robotech tactics, but what sold me on the premise was the fact they were saying it was 98% complete and being handled by Ninja Division.
The only part of the puzzle that Palladium games was said to be doing was to help with Harmony gold licencing.

Soon after the backing ended everything started to change for the worse and continued down that road.

It also made me pass on a number of good Kickstarters in fear that they where all some form of bad.. But now I am a lot more cautious and look at the track records with what they are promising.

What future does Palladium games have?? 5000+ backers is actually a lot of people to upset with the total population of table top gamers as a whole..

Games Workshop train-wrecked Age of Sigmar but they have turned it around plus grew by leaps and bounds to try to resolve the issue. I don't see PG doing that ever..

Where did this "Kickstarter have likely removed the worst comments" gak come from?

It's a way to reconcile the idea of "There is no evidence of anything all that gakky in the comments" and "Kevin wouldn't lie".

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Now, that being said...the level of rage lobbed in his direction was really childish and petty

You didn't actually read the exchange, did you?

Because I've gone over it a few times (my own comment and those of others), and while obviously he took things to heart in a hard way, that wasn't a fraction as ugly as "Spartangate" was, or the pre-Gencon 'vote', or any number of controversies.

You're making it sound like he was dogpiled by dozens of people hurling horrific invective.

Other than a heated exchange with Jay D, and a little snark from a few others (yes, myself included) based on his insultingly aggressive opening statements, let's try to keep perspective that while this exchange may have been the final straw for him, we had nothing to do with the leadup to that, nor any way of knowing that he was in a fragile state of mind.

He picked the fight, and I'm sorry that it went fething sideways as it did, but a little perspective and context are necessary as well.

Edit: yes, some people have had an... impressively narrow focus on "Sorry about Carmen, ps where is Wave Two?" in the comments. That certainly can come across as crass and crude. I think it's an extension of the general disdain people have for Kevin's attempt to paint the entire backer base in a negative light with this latest tragedy, and are responding with a figurative 'flip him the bird' for how little they accept the guilt and blame he's trying to lay upon them.

To an outsider it's probably kinda gross. Some people probably are being kinda gross. But again, in a project with over 5,000 backers, painting us ALL in any light based on the actions or words of a couple (or a couple dozen) when we have little or no control over the community is, as I noted above, just attempting to use this situation/controversy/tragedy to ones own end. Which is in itself inappropriate. Bluntly put, coming in on a high horse and yelling YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK in one fashion or another to show off how disappointed you are is just virtue signaling by another form.

And none of us here are 'outsiders'. We should know most of this history by now, so take your outrage and direct it towards where it belongs.

I do not think it matters.

There are alot of people emerging from the woodwork to slam and accuse the RTT backers - or at least those who have have been keeping up to date ove rthe years - without bothering to read the actual dialogue anyway.

The real issue still remains the spider at the centre of the web, Mr kevin Sembiada, who has used this as an opportunity to not only act disgracefully towards a friend but to effectively tell everyone that it was the fault of those despicable , ungrateful so and so's on the RTT boards, afterall they do the same to him everytime he tells us of his troubles

Sorry, Palladium will simply turn this into the mega excuse for not delivering this year andconsider themselves off the hook.

Really, it's not like they were actually on some sort of hook. Just "totes working on it, swearsies, kthxbai" would, based on 2016, been more than enough to cover them for 2017.

wilycoyote wrote:
Sorry, Palladium will simply turn this into the mega excuse for not delivering this year andconsider themselves off the hook.

Shifting blame onto the vocal dissatisfied backers has been the play for years. There are just more of them and fewer open supporters now.

It would not surprise me if this event was used as an out. I know that comes from a jaded place from having watched this campaign for years, but it really does seem to be the exact kind of thing they would use to try to get out from under this. At the absolute minimum this will be used as further justification to continue to not engage the backer community in the future.

Joyboozer wrote:
Where did this "Kickstarter have likely removed the worst comments" gak come from?

Merijeek wrote:
It's a way to reconcile the idea of "There is no evidence of anything all that gakky in the comments" and "Kevin wouldn't lie".

In case anyone who engages with a Kevin conspiracy theorist and wants to point out to them that when Kickstarter deletes a post, the post still exists.

They remove the body of the text, and replace it with this. "This comment has been removed by Kickstarter.".

Here's an example.

So, the idea that the "truly offensive ones" have been removed, is as expected, wankery of the highest order.

Wow, forget I had a profile which probably dates back to an ill-fated 40K tournament I was trying to promote on behalf of someone that could have cared less about actually running the tournament.

There's a lot of flak being thrown that people agree with Kevin without actually taking five minutes out to read the exchange and it drives me bonkers.

We'll never know but is it possible Carmen was under a strict deadline to have the kickstarter under way and Kevon was giving him a deaf ear when Carmen was reporting how bad the reception to his game was? It's one of those things, I think everyone knows what kind of businessman Kevin is and I can imagine the Rogue Games/Palladium contract was very much in favor of Kevin in all factors. I've said multiple times over at the kickstarter page that you will not be seeing any update regarding Carmen getting freed of his Palladium contract and money returned. Likely Kevin will pursue a breach of contract with Carmen and try to quietly seize whatever assets are promised and try to twist it into producing the board game to help his friend.

I feel like a conspiracy theorist even writing this stuff but I can't imagine a few barbed comments sending Carmen over the edge like that.

I'm just in shock on many of the venomous responses in the actual update itself.

I'm just really, really hoping this fiasco will be over one way or the other very soon. I was trying to stay away from KS, but the latest events have dragged me back in once again...

 Manchu wrote:
Well, I am actually a lawyer. I have no interest in filing a lawsuit against Palladium at this point. BUT I do have an interest - obviously so - in getting the backer rewards Palladium promised to deliver in consideration of my pledge. Once you strip the marketing hokum off, what we have here is a purchase order: I pay you X and you hand over Y. I have paid X - where is Y? Whether Palladium has breached that contract is a legal question that they may be forced to defend at some point.

It won't be defended until a lawyer gets involved (somebody remind me what happened to that paralegal who said he was going to take action). In the meantime, KS (both of them!) can do whatever they want.

Back before 2013, Singh is a lawyer and he filed a lawsuit against Seth Quest of the Hanfree (Ipad holder) KS: "As far as the bankruptcy is concerned, my lawsuit was actually little more than a small claims lawsuit. If you file a real lawsuit in Arizona you file that in superior court. I filed it in a court that is lower than that called the justice court, and it’s not actually small claims court. For legal reasons, I didn’t file it in small claims. It has to do with the fact that I wanted a declaration that we were not investors, we were buyers. You can’t do that in small claims court, so I filed it in justice court." http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/22/why-this-jilted-kickstarter-backer-decided-to-sue-why-he-was-right/

Keep in mind that what Singh actually accomplished was bankrupting Hanfree and Seth Quest. He didn't get his backer reward. Filing a lawsuit would only further delay any actual progress on RRT, up to indefinitely.

@ced1106 Interesting read which leaves me wondering about culpability in the wording of the kickstarter itself. Kevin has done the minimal amount of work necessary to satisfy whatever grounds there are to justify that work has not stopped on the kickstarter altogether. We know this thing is as dead as a parrot in a funny Monty Python sketch but it appears Kevin knows how much has to be done for it not to be legally considered a deceased, departed project. I try to look at this not as 'toy robots' as so many are quick to dismiss it but as a $1.4 million dollar investment that could be suffering from fund misappropriation or just flat out mishandling and lack of foresight into how the finances were needed to produce the game.
The venturebeat article gave me some food for thought but I don't know how much applies in light of Palladium producing enough empty soothing platitudes to appear as still having momentum.

Keep in mind that what Singh actually accomplished was bankrupting Hanfree and Seth Quest. He didn't get his backer reward. Filing a lawsuit would only further delay any actual progress on RRT, up to indefinitely.

Well since there isn't going to be progress on RRT anyway I wouldn't see that as a bad result.

Let's also keep the discussion grounded: the project has already delivered to a significant degree. Whatever any of us think of Kevin Siembieda, RRT has been released and backers have received a portion of our rewards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScarletRose wrote:
I wouldn't see that as a bad result.

I would. I may have no interest in PB products like Rifts but there are many people who like them a lot. IMO PB shutting down would be an unfavorable outcome.

 Manchu wrote:
Let's also keep the discussion grounded: the project has already delivered to a significant degree. Whatever any of us think of Kevin Siembieda, RRT has been released and backers have received a portion of our rewards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScarletRose wrote:
I wouldn't see that as a bad result.

I would. I may have no interest in PB products like Rifts but there are many people who like them a lot. IMO PB shutting down would be an unfavorable outcome.

For me, them shutting down would be an unfavorable outcome, as in.... not enough.

I would propose that Palladium Books continuing to offer kinds of "pre-orders" that stretch into years at a time and taking customer money is the least favorable outcome.

Rifts could be sold off as part of bankruptcy and may still see life.

The certainty of taking a run at PB legally and "losing" RRT is very low in relevance now.

Plus NMI really needs to find a better hobby than the Palladium forums: I am certain it will do him good.

I really see a better world without PB in it.

 Manchu wrote:
Let's also keep the discussion grounded: the project has already delivered to a significant degree. Whatever any of us think of Kevin Siembieda, RRT has been released and backers have received a portion of our rewards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScarletRose wrote:
I wouldn't see that as a bad result.

I would. I may have no interest in PB products like Rifts but there are many people who like them a lot. IMO PB shutting down would be an unfavorable outcome.

A favourable outcome here is so very far into the reaches of extremely unlikely territory, that it's actually somewhere beyond the second coming and the resurrection of mecha-Kennedy to oust Trump.

It would require PB having the funds to deliver, or refund. I suspect they're running on fumes, so this shitshow is going to continue for a long while yet, or they'll have to go bankrupt to protect personal assets. I'd rather just have it over with now.

Well this where I part company with a lot of you - I'd like to see PB not only survive but also thrive, for the sake of the people who like Rifts, etc. ... and of course because I'd love to see more RRT stuff. But PB will never thrive as long as Kevin can profit from abusive business practices. So I see the right thing for backers to do is pass on the truth of how poorly managed RRT has been and that Kevin has shown no real progress on turning that around. As long as that is the case, people should be put on notice to steer clear of PB. But I am ready to give credit where it's due should we see some real progress.

As long as that is the case, people should be put on notice to steer clear of PB. But I am ready to give credit where it's due should we see some real progress.

I can see what you're saying and certainly other gaming companies have made positive reforms that have people talking. But I can't see anything happening to change PB's reputation so long as Kevin is at the helm, and I can't see him stepping down peaceably.

So, I don't know. I think that the first step is for people to steer clear, the rest is up to the company. I say it's survival of the fittest though, so if they fold for their bad choices that's just how it goes.

Manchu; I don't disagree with the sentiment that seeking to bankrupt or otherwise shutter the doors of Palladium is to assume a great deal about all 5,342 backers, but also thousands of fans of their products around the world.

However, the stance that we should act to warn others away (factually, of course) would be to deny them funding and support as our main (and cost effective) means of showing our disdain for being treated poorly.

If successful, the outcome of this would be... them continuing to flounder and perhaps one day going bankrupt and shuttering their doors. Just over a longer timeframe and based on many little cuts to their support and funding.

From a stance of wishing them to thrive, and have the resources to complete wave 2 (and their other projects, outstanding and new alike), wouldn't the wisest course be to recommend glowing support and downplaying negative aspects, to bring in as many people and as much money as possible, in the hopes that they might one day get around to dedicating the resources necessary to complete said products?

Obviously this isn't going to happen, I'm just trying to reason out how you're suggesting anything other than the same eventual end result over a longer timeline and with fewer people ever seeing a measure of closure to this ~45 month running gag.

Yes, some people seek 'revenge' or perhaps a more thinly veiled 'not wishing them to be able to rip others off again', but unless they provide substantial evidence of progress, I think it's a hard sell that they're doing anything but running out the clock.

Every year that passes is another closer to retirement (few of the PB staff are young men/women, and their playerbase isn't exactly youthful best I can tell from Open House pics), it's that many fewer backers who even remember participating in this gakshow.

Which, to come back around to the recent tragedy, is part of what makes it so weird and unfortunate that they chose to send this news out as an Update. It attracted a great deal more attention, much (most?) of it negative. Like Carmen's ill fated attempt to engage the community, it has proven actively counterproductive.

Honestly I too would rather like for them to just produce what they owe the backers. Between my friends and I, between pro-rated remainders of 8 Battle Cry tiers and another $220 or so in add ons, it's somewhere around half a grand US in material. But I don't think they'll ever provide it, and their ongoing silence regarding progress leads me feeling less charitable as to what I might or might not have a vested interest in.

A couple of sprue breakdowns or prototypes per quarter would have gone a long way towards ablating much of the ire that now exists based on their choice of communication strategy, and this recent mess is at least in part tied to that.

3.5 years later, the few remaining active members of the comments section of a floundering KS that shows negligible concern for its backers are generally not very well disposed towards said company and those associated with them. :-P

To be clear, I'm not trying to be condescending here. Just a mix of inquiry and mulling things over aloud, as it were.

 Forar wrote:

From a stance of wishing them to thrive, and have the resources to complete wave 2 (and their other projects, outstanding and new alike), wouldn't the wisest course be to recommend glowing support and downplaying negative aspects, to bring in as many people and as much money as possible, in the hopes that they might one day get around to dedicating the resources necessary to complete said products?

Yup. You're basically suggesting a pump-and-dump for the sake of pulling funding from a future project to pay for a past one. Kind of like the whole Northern Gun thing.

Personally, I have no desire to screw a future group of gamers for the sake of getting Simbieda more money so that I can get what I'm owed. I have zero desire to be complicit in any Simbieda shenanigans.

 Manchu wrote:
Keep in mind that what Singh actually accomplished was bankrupting Hanfree and Seth Quest. He didn't get his backer reward. Filing a lawsuit would only further delay any actual progress on RRT, up to indefinitely.

The article I linked said that Quest had credit card and other debts as well, and these other debts did him in. Singh's was the proverbial straw on the camel's back, and he wasn't going to see the product, regardless.

Do you really think you'll get anymore RRT? The money's long gone, Kevin's blaming everyone but himself, and has anyone here said they received RRT product recently?

I've been following the Prodos / Archon Aliens vs. Predator thread, and, at least there, *some* backers said they received product. Palladium releases a book only 20 years late every once in awhile, but that's all the progress I've read about.

Posters here keep calling Palladium's updates non-updates. That doesn't sound like progress to me. You're not going to get your stuff.

EDIT: Whoops! Forgot about the RIFTS IP. Clearly, that has value, and the Savage Worlds RIFTS KS has shown that, in the hands of a competent company, you *can* have a RIFTS product. Now, what Palladium actually does with this income, I'd like to see. So far, i haven't read any mention of it going towards RRT.

I agree with what others have said here - not acting against PB is just going to have us all watch it slowly waste away to nothing; we simply are not going to ever see Wave 2.

The money has been spent, and there's no project PB could put together now that would ever pay for that project AND Wave 2.

A new company might swoop in and save the IP, but the first thing they would do is find some way to write off the debt for Wave 2, not fulfill it.

Kevin's business practices (or lack thereof) have done him in. He'd had several chances now to try and make things right and he has instead wasted them on doing the opposite. It's long past due - well before even RRT funded - for his company, if not himself, to pay the piper. What happened to Carmen is tragic, but in the end it has no bearing whatsoever in the fact that we've been mislead and strung along and it needs to end.

In all of the noise I haven't seen anyone post how Carmen is doing. Does anyone know?

I would suggest finding out from a source that isn't filtered through Simbieda.

The topic of RTT/Carmen came up over the weekend with a guy I know that owns a FLGS for decades now and
he said as long as he can remember back that Palladium games has never shipped anything on time.

Just shows that Kevin has always worked on his own schedule no matter what it is..

Yes, but that was, according to the fan-friends, a mitigating factor...

Maybe if I put it in dramatic terms, it will make sense. Imagine a big red button. If you push it, Palladium goes out of business. Would you push it? Why?

Now imagine that you can't push the button. You have to hire me to do it. And in order to shut down PB I have to push that button every day for an indeterminate number of years and each time I push it you have to pay me 100USD. Plus I can't guarantee that It will actually shut down PB. Still on board?

Maybe you would push the "revenge" button if it was cheap and easy. Maybe you would even be able to rationalize doing so as being about something other than revenge. But if the process is slow, expensive, and uncertain, then it becomes a lot harder to rationalize. And then you have to ask yourself, is revenge really worth that?

Also revenge for what? That part of your backer rewards is extremely late. That you have been lied to. That the guy running the company is insufferable. I get it, I think you have valid complaints. I have the same complaints myself, as a backer. But if you put those complaints on one side of the scales, and PB shutting down on the other side - things just don't balance.

So is speaking honestly about this debacle the same thing as trying to wreck PB's business and get it shut down?

No, not even close. The primary point of spreading the word about PB's mismanagement of RRT is to prevent other gamers from getting ripped off. Secondarily, the point is that the only thing with any chance of getting through to Kevin Siembieda and his cronies is denting PB's bottom line. Please note, I'm not saying this will necessarily get through to them. I'm saying it is the route with the best chance. And if it did get through, then I'd be happy to be able to say, you know PB has massively imrpoved, I completely recommend doing business with them.

But keep in mind, sending a message to Kevin Siembieda is just an incidental possibility. The primary goal of recording and spreading the facts about RRT is so other gamers know what's up with the current state of PB - and they will hopefully take the truth into account when spending their money.

As a backer, I would pretty much be ok if any calamity of any sort befall Kevin personally or if PB shut down.