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 John Prins wrote:

cannonfodr wrote:
So are they counting non-votes for the force org charts as a yes?

Also ironic that still no new renders for Robotech while DP9 releases an update with their 3rd render for their upcoming Heavy Gear kickstarter.

DP9 made a hella ton of mistakes during their Kickstarter, but they still managed to make Palladium look like a gang of clowns.

By my count, these were the DP9 mistakes:

1. Called out a $1 backer, back before Palladium... Sorry, I mean Rogue Heroes decided to make it a fad.
2. Failed to plan for the drop in value of the Canadian dollar/used KS funds to produce fleet scale Jovian Chronicles minis (no proof, but coincidental timing, just like the delayed Northern Gun books coming out after the RRT kickstarter).
3. Eliminated Tiger and Sidewinder stretch goals due to insufficient funds from 2.
4. Delays due to some of the original renders not compatible with the planned material/production method.
5. Plastics are skinnier than original metals. (uh, mouthwatering poseable minis?)
6. Miscast Jager V-engine vents and missing detail on Caprican mounts. This was rumored to be fixed for retail, but no fix offered for backers other than to paint in the missing details.
Speaking of retail when was the last time anyone saw DP9 stuff that wasn't gathering dust/heavily discounted in an actual store?

The only difference between DP9 and Palladium is that they don't have a wave 2 albatross around their necks and the new renders are showing that they are somewhat receptive to customer feedback. Yet DP9 has managed to complete 1 kickstarter and are on their way to starting another while Palladium continues to stumble along waiting for quotes. This says a lot about Palladium's (in)ability to get stuff done.

To me the whole eleven quotes thing makes it clear no work whatsoever has been done on the project in the intervening years, and if the eleven quotes thing is even true then this is the first moment anything has been done on Wave 2 at all. That's the kind of thing you do at the beginning of a project in the research phase. If Scott wants to sound legitimate, then next update they better have narrowed down that number and not be searching for other quotes from more sources.

The Force Org Chart thing is ridiculous. He should have simply said it would be up on DriveThruRPG before his next update, or gotten ahead of the game and said it was already on DriveThruRPG.

Scott has work to do and won't be going to GenCon. Doing a convention is work, but I like the tacit admission that what Palladium does at a convention isn't.

Well, all the pictures always show the PB booth as being sooooooooo busy.

Merijeek wrote:
Well, all the pictures always show the PB booth as being sooooooooo busy.

I had taken a picture during Anime North from the other end of the room where the PB booth was barren.
It had a lonely Wayne standing in the middle fiddling with his phone.
Even Kevin took off playing some RPG to one side with some 6-8 people.

I had one 20-something guy ask me what these guys were.
Biting tongue hard I said "They are an RPG company from back in the 80's to 90's."
"Oh, old school?"
"Very much so, Rogue-like with a non-intuitive user interface."

The Bayblade booth was absolutely hopping in comparison.
The only "benefit" to stopping by the booth was getting to hold the Armored Veritech knowing that was about the closest I would ever get to wave2 product.
It was very brave of Wayne to let a complete stranger be able to hold it... I thought he was going to have a heart attack.

Ah, the memories.
Missed Anime North this year... sad really.
Traded that with going to Thailand / Pattaya on business which was a whole different circus.
Was visiting suppliers for review, should have looked into injection molding, they seem to have a fair bit of automotive manufacture there.

 Talizvar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
Well, all the pictures always show the PB booth as being sooooooooo busy.

I had taken a picture during Anime North from the other end of the room where the PB booth was barren.
It had a lonely Wayne standing in the middle fiddling with his phone.
Even Kevin took off playing some RPG to one side with some 6-8 people.

I had one 20-something guy ask me what these guys were.
Biting tongue hard I said "They are an RPG company from back in the 80's to 90's."
"Oh, old school?"
"Very much so, Rogue-like with a non-intuitive user interface."

The Bayblade booth was absolutely hopping in comparison.
The only "benefit" to stopping by the booth was getting to hold the Armored Veritech knowing that was about the closest I would ever get to wave2 product.
It was very brave of Wayne to let a complete stranger be able to hold it... I thought he was going to have a heart attack.

Ah, the memories.
Missed Anime North this year... sad really.
Traded that with going to Thailand / Pattaya on business which was a whole different circus.
Was visiting suppliers for review, should have looked into injection molding, they seem to have a fair bit of automotive manufacture there.

Wait!

You're not saying you're one of the ten eleven quotes, are you?!?

Further evidence that some people just won't be satisfied!

I sent this email to: kickstarter@palladiumbooks.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hi Scott,

I am a backer of this project. I would like a refund for the wave 2 models. 4+ years is simply an unacceptable amount of time.

Frankly, your updates are just like Kevin's. Talking to overseas manufacturers is the same story we've heard for years. And in this update you say that wave 2 for 2017 is not looking likely.

How about you answer questions that the backers actually care about? Namely:
1) How much money is left from the kickstarter?

2) What actually happened (a timeline with non-palladium sources would be ideal) with wave 2 up to this point?

3) A refund plan for those of us that gave PB an interest fee loan. For example, if wave 2 isn't in backers' hands by March of 2018, a prorated refund will be given for those that want it.

Do you realize that to some of us (and many people in the hobby board gaming community) that RRT is a laughing stock and a Kickstarter cautionary tale?

What many of the backers believe:
1) wave 1 was overstocked and that ate up much of the KS $

2) part of the KS $ was used to fund / dig out other struggling PB projects or projects that Kevin cares more about

3) PB only has a few years left before the clock runs out on any legal action and PB is just offering minimum platitudes to prevent any action from KS or a class action suit
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This was the response I got:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We do apologize, unfortunately Palladium Books is not offering any refunds as Palladium has successfully fulfilled shipping Wave One rewards and is working to continue developing and then shipping the Wave Two rewards once they are completed.

Thank you for your support,

RRT Support Team

 Alpharius wrote:
Wait!
You're not saying you're one of the ten eleven quotes, are you?!?

No, wish I was.
I do supplier quality and my company is in a few interesting parts of the world and has a large variety of parts that need to be fabricated.
This is why I am rather... impatient when someone cannot get parts that are relatively simple made.
Material chemistry certificates, mechanical testing, dimensional results of tooling, submitted timelines, capacity planning, gauge repeatability and reproducibility studies, production part approval process, production failure mode and effects analysis... time consuming pain in the rear stuff.

They act like we would not understand.
I understand they have no clue what complex, difficult, hard work is.
They are the kind of supplier where I review their facility and question if there is any organizational structure at all.
If I hear one more special snowflake "we like to think of our people as artists!" one more time when they should be following an instruction or "recipe"...
(Yes, I know some are ACTUALLY artists but they are all contract...)

Sorry, rant over.

I know, I was kidding!

I've been involved in various industries that utilized complex injection molds and companies to make them, and product.

It has never taken 4 weeks to get a quote back, never mind 4+ years...

It takes 4 weeks if the company doesn't like you

Or if you ask to pay with signed rifters.

I'm sure when Kevin asks if they'll 'do it on spec' for the exposure they laugh at him and he moves on to the next potential candidate. Rotate this request for free manufacturing all around China for four years and who can Kevin POSSIBLY be debating with? Again you'll notice Scooter wasn't actually involved in the call itself. What a maroon.

I'm horrified that this trainwreck is still going. You guys have my sympathy.

 TwoGunBob wrote:
I'm sure when Kevin asks if they'll 'do it on spec' for the exposure they laugh at him and he moves on to the next potential candidate. Rotate this request for free manufacturing all around China for four years and who can Kevin POSSIBLY be debating with? Again you'll notice Scooter wasn't actually involved in the call itself. What a maroon.

It is easier to speak the truth when you get to say "I was told that the supplier...".
He can claim no knowledge to what actually is happening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HunterEste wrote:
I'm horrified that this trainwreck is still going. You guys have my sympathy.

You are horrified?
There are no words for the sublime pain of a company being so wrong and acting like they are so right.
Alcohol, model glue and assembly of models without instructions cures all ills.

Realistically, where did the $ go?

Sure, he over bought on wave 1 and had to do all of the setup costs for that and the starter box and all. How much do we think that was of the $1.44M?

How much went to bail out other PB nonesense?

How much does anybody think is left? I'd wager $0 is left.

evancich wrote:
Realistically, where did the $ go?
Sure, he over bought on wave 1 and had to do all of the setup costs for that and the starter box and all. How much do we think that was of the $1.44M?
How much went to bail out other PB nonesense?
How much does anybody think is left? I'd wager $0 is left.

Q: Where did the money go?
A: Retail stock!

PB can't be that dumb.

Kevin: I have a great idea! Let's spend 100% of the KS $ on the setup costs, starter boxes, and wave 1!

Fanfriend: But, how we will create wave 2?

Kevin: We won't! max lulz

evancich wrote:
PB can't be that dumb.
Kevin: I have a great idea! Let's spend 100% of the KS $ on the setup costs, starter boxes, and wave 1!
Fanfriend: But, how we will create wave 2?
Kevin: We won't! max lulz

Uh no.
Picture that you get a HUGE deal when running production, setup costs are the big one.
So it is TERRIBLY tempting to ask for an extended run with the thought of selling in retail say even half of it and continuing with wave 2.
No harm no foul right?

Don't forget shipping...

I will never forget the update, "Two ships passing in the night" - where the ship full of Aussie-born boxes from New York passed the Europe-bound ship that departed Los Angeles.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

evancich wrote:
PB can't be that dumb.

Kevin: I have a great idea! Let's spend 100% of the KS $ on the setup costs, starter boxes, and wave 1!

Fanfriend: But, how we will create wave 2?

Kevin: We won't! max lulz

Well, we have proof they purchased 3x the amount they needed for the KS in base boxes. Make of that what you will...

 Talizvar wrote:

evancich wrote:
PB can't be that dumb.
Kevin: I have a great idea! Let's spend 100% of the KS $ on the setup costs, starter boxes, and wave 1!
Fanfriend: But, how we will create wave 2?
Kevin: We won't! max lulz

Uh no.
Picture that you get a HUGE deal when running production, setup costs are the big one.
So it is TERRIBLY tempting to ask for an extended run with the thought of selling in retail say even half of it and continuing with wave 2.
No harm no foul right?

I've worked with a US company that produces challenge coins through a factory in China.

Getting 1 coin made? Something like $200 US.
10 coins? ~$230 US.
100 coins? ~$432 US.
200 coins? ~$616 US.

For the mathematically challenged, the price goes down substantially the more that get made, from around $23 per coin for a set of 10, to $3.08 per coin for 200. This is because, as Talizvar notes, there's a baseline 'we don't even get out of bed for less than this' amount. Once that is cleared, there are breakpoints where the time, materials, labour, and other costs factor in at a much slower rate than that initial setup, and that translates into reducing the cost per unit.

So imagine PB finds a factory that will do the work, and between labour and the factory slot and printed materials and dice and more, they can get a core box done for about $25 US apiece for 10,000 units (a random estimate that should cover backers plus 2-3k left over for initial retail), but if they get 20,000 units that price comes down to $18 per box. $360,000 is more than they wanted to spend, but they're getting essentially twice as much for about 50% more, that's a hell of a bargain! (again, these numbers are purely examples, I have no idea what they paid for in molds and materials and labour and whatnot, simply trying to showcase how Economy of Scale comes into play because the topic has come up once more).

Then there's the secondary discussions of whether or not they did this with KS money (maybe? I have no idea) and if it was right to do so (or using EoS to get a better deal and get retail excess at a lower price? Questionable), and/or legal (I am not a lawyer, on the internet or otherwise, I have no idea).

I'm just trying to showcase how that sort of thing works, in my experience. A friend got some calendars made for her business, and they got like twice as much for a couple of bucks extra; similar effect, once the setup was done, the factory didn't really care if they printed 100 or 1000, they could mass produce them in essentially a similar timeframe once the heavy lifting was done.

Well, there's that.

There's also Kevin's dinosaur-like mindset that sees things like the Internet as a passing fad to be ignored.

And, since most people feel the same way, what this REALLY means is that the ~5,000 backers on that Kickstarter are just the tip of the iceberg. Plow all $1.44M into producing Wave One, and the incredible sales from Barnes & Noble, FLGS, Waldenbooks, Borders, and B. Dalton's will fund Palladium Books forever!!!!!!!!!

Merijeek wrote:
And, since most people feel the same way, what this REALLY means is that the ~5,000 backers on that Kickstarter are just the tip of the iceberg. Plow all $1.44M into producing Wave One, and the incredible sales from Barnes & Noble, FLGS, Waldenbooks, Borders, and B. Dalton's will fund Palladium Books forever!!!!!!!!!

That's pretty much it. Palladium's not the only crowdfunding creator to make the "we'll recoup our costs from retail and make MEELLIONS" mistake. I've seen other creators do it, although only a Dragonthing company comes to mind. If you see a base game product of a KS game on clearance, that may be what's happening. Anyway, one thought is that, in the early days, creators used a "pre-order multiplier" because they didn't know what the "Kickstarter multiplier" was. This multiplier was a rule of thumb of estimating retail sales based on pre-order sales. So you might have a 10x pre-order multiplier, which means that, if you has 1000 pre-orders, you estimated 10,000 retail sales. As hindsight tells us, the "Kickstarter multiplier" is less than the "pre-order multiplier", meaning that, if you use the "pre-order multiplier" with KS backer numbers, you've just overestimated your retail sales, leaving you stuck with retail stock -- that you still have to pay for with warehousing fees, inventory taxes, etc. The money you spent for these retail products had to come from somewhere. Since you ran the KS because you didn't have the money in the first place, the money comes from Wave 2 and shipping, with the intention to recoup this money when the product sells at retail. Except it doesn't. So you eventually sell the stock at clearance, but this doesn't make enough money to pay for Wave 2 and shipping. For retail companies, they either absorb the cost from profits on their other product lines, or go out of business. But, with a KS creator, he still has backers who want their stuff.

Anyone interested in my conversion of all my rewritten robotech rpg stats to battle tech alpha strike?

I have all 3 generations converted and written, just need to do the proper datacards.

I know. Here's what you should do, Jaymz.

Collect answers, get back to us on it in two weeks, and if enough people have said that they want them, post the rules two weeks after that.

It'll show your bidness management prowess.

Well...the conversions are done. No point in me putting the work to actually do the cards if no one gives a damn.

 Talizvar wrote:

evancich wrote:
Realistically, where did the $ go?
Sure, he over bought on wave 1 and had to do all of the setup costs for that and the starter box and all. How much do we think that was of the $1.44M?
How much went to bail out other PB nonesense?
How much does anybody think is left? I'd wager $0 is left.

Q: Where did the money go?
A: Retail stock!

I hope that photo wasnt taken yesterday.

By the file name, I'm guessing late August 2014.

20140828_123726.jpg

That pic is 1500+ copies of the core game right there. Iirc they were short shipped at that time and that was the first delivery.....

 jaymz wrote:
That pic is 1500+ copies of the core game right there. Iirc they were short shipped at that time and that was the first delivery.....

Don't forget, almost the entire first shipment was intended for GenCon sales. The only people who got anything before October (when the second shipment arrived) were the IIRC 200 or so First Contact backers. As they didn't ship any BC bags with that first load.

So that means that they were intending to sell the remaining 1300+ at GenCon. The "vote" was always a farce.

We're probably never going to see any details, like exactly how many retail boxes were bought, how they were paid for, or how many remain (despite regularly being discounted by 30%). Because it's likely just very bad news for PB.

Maybe we will get some answers over the next couple weeks, but I'm not counting on anything, let alone enough. We'll see. Only two (maybe three) more fortnightly Updates before GenCon.

 jaymz wrote:
Anyone interested in my conversion of all my rewritten robotech rpg stats to battle tech alpha strike?
I have all 3 generations converted and written, just need to do the proper datacards.

Okay, I will raise my hand on that one.
Were you also converting the other way BT to Palladium?
Thought I read that elsewhere.

Now you are going to make me look and compare the "unseen" Robotech units with their BT counterparts.

Okay, I am sorely tempted to try RRT as BT:AS and see if it plays better.
Who am I kidding?
I could bet money it does.

You making alternate stats for varying load-outs?
That path leads to madness!

Now I am being irritated with a thought on how to calculate some of this in an Excel sheet conversion...

Oh yeah, the "Monster" that could be fun all itself.