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 Stormonu wrote:
Looks like I was at least 20% off on my calculation for manufacturing cost, but if you take the 17,472 core boxes and the manufacturing cost (yeah, I know - I should factor in the add-on boxes, but feth it), at most it cost $34.44 to make each core box (factoring in add-ons at about 20%, that'd make each core box about $25 to manufacture).

Don't know what my point is other than they are really trying to get away with "pennies on the dollar" on remaining stock. I hope they get stuck with that stock and buried under it. It'll hopefully take the place of those E.T. cartridges in some landfill.

You should add on the add-on boxes, but you should be subtracting 11,000 core boxes. Backers did not, and SHOULD NOT be paying for retail stock. Palladium are more than permitted to take advantage of any bulk discounting/economy of scale advantage by making an adjacent purchase of retail stock, but Kickstarter funds are for Kickstarter rewards and fulfillment. Anything else is misappropriation, gambling with backer funds on retail sales, to recoup costs.

So by my math, Palladium is claiming 38% of $1.58M for Manufacturing (3D Corrections, Prototypes, Molds, Manufacturing, BattleFoam bags). Then another 14% in shipping for (Import from China, Domestic and International shipping).

Lets assume that the section of that 14% assigned to Import from China is at least as much as the cost of the BattleFoam bags. I think that's a more than reasonable expectation.

So the 38% now is inclusive of (3D Corrections, Prototypes, Molds, Manufacturing, Import from China).

38% of the $1.58M is $601711.39.

The approximate backer count for Kickstarter fulfillment is ~6000, based on some reasonable assumptions.

Meaning PB are claiming it cost $100.29 to manufacture and import each backer copy of a BattleCry.

And that's not counting the $60.70 per Battlecry in development costs (23% of funding).

PB are currently claiming they've bankrupted the campaign by spending ~$160.99 + shipping, to produce each battlecry box.

Yeah, I didn't count the addon boxes, but if they weren't a trivial amount per backer (because again, retail stock DOES NOT COUNT), then I'll be shocked.

I'd be wanting to see the books on that accounting. And no, Kevin, your word isn't fething good enough. Your lies, both openly and by ommission have been exposed.

As Kevin claims in Update 186, a full year after all money was apparently exhausted, "If there were ever any type of investigation, Palladium has accurate records, receipts, correspondences and documentation for every expense and transaction we’ve made regarding Robotech® RPG Tactics™."

I think now is the time to prove all that.

You know how there's a "Risks" section for every Kickstarter project that gets launched?

I must have missed the part in the RRT one where it said "We actually don't have a clue how much it's going to cost to make minis. If it turns out that we don't have the money to do it, then we won't".

Does this count as boiling over?

 Swabby wrote:
Does this count as boiling over?

More "boiling dry".

You know, less likely to make a mess, and more likely to result in the house burning down.

And based on the commentary, the latter is looking more and more possible.

So... What does that do to the potential fraud investigations now ?

 HudsonD wrote:
So... What does that do to the potential fraud investigations now ?

Well... the admission of failure removes the liability shield of Kickstarter*, so a lawsuit should have an easier time getting the courts to permit discovery. Because the claimants will want proof that there is both no money remaining, and no evidence of any misappropriation.

* The Kickstarter liability shield being that as long as the Creator was "working on it", no refunds were required to be issued. I honestly don't think that'd have held up in court, but it WOULD have required much more fighting (and therefore expense), with no possibility of success, and likely several expensive appeals.

And that's when things will get interesting.

As some have pointed out, there's unlikely to be a pot of gold (ie, actual refunds) at the end of the rainbow, but given Kevin's actions and attitude through the campaign, I don't care. He should not be able to walk away with only his reputation hurt, that he can easily dismiss (those donkey-cave backers!) and continue with business as normal (even if business as normal is the game publishing equivalent of subsistence farming). The company deserves to be shuttered after this debacle. Kevin needs to actually see some consequence for his criminal mismanagement (if not actual financial crimes, which may come up in any court case).

I'll happily donate a pineapple ($50AU, about $40US) to a credible class action. I may no longer have standing, but I still feel dicked out of my dream (even if mine ended March 14th, 2014).

Heh, this also puts in the right perspective Carmen's claims of being able to "save" the RRT KS.

Jeez. The kickstarter comments are getting a bit fruity this morning. :-D

Can someone explain to me what Bad_Syntax is....

At this point, he's just a shill for Kevin that claims to have a direct line to his ear.

@Morgan, I quoted your post up there in the comments section, it was better written than my working rage post there.

So far the general consensus on all the pages/groups I'm in, is that no one cares about an actual refund anymore, they just want to see Kevin and Palladium burned to the ground.

I can’t believe he found the models “great”....
They suck in so many ways....

Prepare for a new appeal to fan friends to save the company.

 n815e wrote:
Prepare for a new appeal to fan friends to save the company.

The Crisis of "Please don't Sue Us"?

Per the KS ToS, doesn't this mean that PB *has* to show the world their books?

And I don't think that last update counts, though I'm sure Kevin thinks it does.

I'm counting a lot more angry backers with torches than fan-friends...

Per the KS ToS, doesn't this mean that PB *has* to show the world their books?

And I don't think that last update counts, though I'm sure Kevin thinks it does.

Nah, it's the 2012 ToS that are binding here.
Linky: https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012

The books don't matter, what's offered doesn't really matter; PB owe refunds. Period.

It's down to backers to file suit to enforce that agreement though.

 Alpharius wrote:
Per the KS ToS, doesn't this mean that PB *has* to show the world their books?

And I don't think that last update counts, though I'm sure Kevin thinks it does.

Admittedly, KS's ToS are wet paper as they are not being enforced. But it could be used for that if they get sued.

 jul wrote:
I can’t believe he found the models “great”....
They suck in so many ways....

Well, to be fair, he never had any interest in building the models or playing with them. No one in the office did. Even prior to the release of wave 1, they went to the major retailer convention GAMA trying to sell stores on their new product line with miniatures that were haphazardly built with huge gaps either without bases or on random different bases. No one at this company could be bothered with just driving over to their local FLGS and buying 3-4 packs of plastic bases to present a consistent look for their upcoming product line. In the years since, they couldn't be bothered to even put *ANY* pictures of the minis they had painted on their online store url for the products let alone a proper gallery that a minis line deserves. They weren't just a fish out of water but a fish rotting in the garbage from the very beginning.


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 Albertorius wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Per the KS ToS, doesn't this mean that PB *has* to show the world their books?

And I don't think that last update counts, though I'm sure Kevin thinks it does.

Admittedly, KS's ToS are wet paper as they are not being enforced. But it could be used for that if they get sued.

The white knights over at Palladium are already circling the wagons to defend against even the mention of enforcing the TOS.

If Peter was told the truth and some other company got the rights to a miniatures game, what company would actually think that is a good idea?
I mean, unless it is ND, who already developed the Macross part of a game line, it will take them a couple of years of development and production. With th Macross license potentially expiring in three years, there is no time to see a return on investment.
Forget trying to get it crowdfunded.
You can't really go with compatible miniatures because the secondary market will be flooded with cheap alternativves.
A change in compatibility will alienate a number of people looking at boxes of product in their basement and not wanting to reinvest.

It's looking like a losing license to buy.

 Stormonu wrote:
So, a little math based on the pie chart....
$601,711.39 for Manufacturing (including Wave 1 product)
$364,193.74 for Design (and ND's cut)
$158,345.10 for Licensing (only 10%? Boy, HG is cheap...do they know they only got 10%?)

My question on the money problem is as follows:

1. Licensing? RRT is a RPG product, didn't Palladium already have a license for RPG products?

2. There are roughly 10 models in Wave 1 (3 for Valks and modes, 4 Destroids, 1 Glaug, and count the Regults as 2 models). So... per model, 36k for design, 60k for manufacturing. In the experience of people here, is this reasonable? (Yes, we still have to account for game and box design etc. but I don't think that would be the primary cost.)

It seems a good time to repost this old prescient parody cartoon from two or three years back.

winterdyne wrote:

Per the KS ToS, doesn't this mean that PB *has* to show the world their books?

And I don't think that last update counts, though I'm sure Kevin thinks it does.

Nah, it's the 2012 ToS that are binding here.
Linky: https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012

The books don't matter, what's offered doesn't really matter; PB owe refunds. Period.

It's down to backers to file suit to enforce that agreement though.

From the Accountability link (also from 2012):

What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?

If problems come up, creators are expected to post a Project Update (which is emailed to all backers) explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is crucial. Most backers support projects because they want to see something happen and they'd like to be a part of it. Creators who are honest and transparent will usually find backers to be understanding.

It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.

If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

Now...a lot of that is very wishy-washy and quite under-defined.

But, are the backers here satisfied with that last update?

I don't think so.

 n815e wrote:
If Peter was told the truth and some other company got the rights to a miniatures game, what company would actually think that is a good idea?
I mean, unless it is ND, who already developed the Macross part of a game line, it will take them a couple of years of development and production. With th Macross license potentially expiring in three years, there is no time to see a return on investment.
Forget trying to get it crowdfunded.
You can't really go with compatible miniatures because the secondary market will be flooded with cheap alternativves.
A change in compatibility will alienate a number of people looking at boxes of product in their basement and not wanting to reinvest.

It's looking like a losing license to buy.

The only way I could see it working would be if they left Macross behind and did something based on one of the other two parts. If they put out rules for "unnamed and unspecified units that totally aren't all the released RRT models" as a courtesy, they might be able to lure some people with existing models in to try the game and get them to buy new kits. Leaving the most popular part of Robotech behind would probably make it an uphill battle, but getting the license for Southern Cross and/or Mospeada without the baggage of having to fight with Tatsunoko for Macross might actually be doable.

Backers need to stay focused on this part:

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

and ask for the 'refund' that KS says they're due.

Right from the front page of the Campaign:

"To help ensure realistic deadlines, we have completed the vast majority of our development before launching the Kickstarter. Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete. The rulebook and game components are deep in development and will be ready for layout soon. Our manufacturers are also ready and have reserved factory time for the project. This means that as soon as the project is funded, we can lock down a timeline with our manufacturers to get the game produced."

Knowing what we know now, that there is a blatant lie and was used to defraud potential "investors" by misrepresenting their current progress and positioning in the project.

Shipping. The next big cost increase came with the announcement that all freight carriers from UPS and FedEx to the United States Postal Service were implementing Dimensional Weight. In the recent past, a shipper paid by the pound to send a package. Then someone in the shipping industry came up with the idea that shippers of large but lightweight packages should pay by the size of the package, not just the weight.

Dimensional Weight has been in the "industry" for over a decade.

"In the recent past, a shipper paid by the pound" - well, no, Dimensional Weight became industry standard in 2007. Even in 2013 (when the KS happened) it had been standard for years.

I like how they try to blame a boogeyman for their incompetence. "Then SOMEONE in the shipping industry..."

how about "Then SOMEONE gave Kevin a modicum of responsibility and he ruined everything"


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winterdyne wrote:

It's down to backers to file suit to enforce that agreement though.

I would join a class-action lawsuit to bury Palladium Books.

Sigh.... I had finally quit this thread....

 LunarSol wrote:
Sigh.... I had finally quit this thread....

I think alot of us have been there but, like the mafia and other bad and dishonest things, the project keeps sucking people back into the discussion. I spent most of 2017 away but the tiny morsel of hope with Scott's hiring souring months later brought me back

Yeah, whatever.
Kevin needed some way to clear the books and be able to sell.
I really do feel for those who are owed a fair bit of money: their proposed exchange sucks.
I will take the damn credit and get whatever, I only am owed a little over $100 (according to them)..
I can at least guarantee I will not have any dealings with them ever again.
Oh darn, Anime North... well, they will have jack to show there for sure, it will be easy to miss them.
Well, we could probably talk for a year or two yet, I am sure the "refund" will drag out for a few years.

 Alpharius wrote:
Backers need to stay focused on this part:

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

and ask for the 'refund' that KS says they're due.

And quite a few backers* have received.

"As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter."

I don't see any caveats there.

* Myself included, in a message from March 20, 2014, days after SpartanGate and months before all money is claimed to have been spent.