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"Kids shows are the happy meal of TV"
I really liked this video. It very much put words to concepts I have been thinking about for quite a bit. About 18-30 years lovings, analyzing and sometimes just obsessing over cartoons. Yeah, you can enjoy them, just dont think to much. I really love the clip how he shows what is entertainment to his daughter. Its really a good idea to sometimes NOT take things seriously. give it a watch
http://www.geekjuicemedia.com/shows/antisocial-commentary/kids-shows-are-for-kids/

Time I will not get back but agreed.
Mental scarring of dressed up bronies but I will be fine.
I have to watch some shows to make sure they are fine for the kids.
I get concerned if I am entertained, for the very reason of weird target audience.
Just like how anime is for grownups and others for kids, big difference.
I am sure I will see "Star Wars Go!" soon enough and be horrified.

Don't see how this is any real rocket science or surprising. Self righteous adult fans think children's cartoons revolves around them and their interests. Shockingly they don't.

 Talizvar wrote:
I have to watch some shows to make sure they are fine for the kids.
I get concerned if I am entertained, for the very reason of weird target audience..

There's not really any reason to be 'concerned' about that. Smart producers ensure that kids shows are also entertaining for parents, precisely because a parent enjoying a show makes it more likely that their child will be allowed to watch it.

 insaniak wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
I have to watch some shows to make sure they are fine for the kids.
I get concerned if I am entertained, for the very reason of weird target audience..

There's not really any reason to be 'concerned' about that. Smart producers ensure that kids shows are also entertaining for parents, precisely because a parent enjoying a show makes it more likely that their child will be allowed to watch it.

And because parents rarely let their kids watch TV alone. Even with streaming.

The reason "Teen titans go" is hated is because all the other DC cartoons, especially "young justice" were cancelled. Especially young justice which ended without a wrap up.

They want to know why "good shows" get cancelled for "kid crap". Well, Teen Titans Go did a feth off episode to the young justice people which was fantastic. It was the equivalent of South Park the movie telling parents "don't take your kids to adult movies." It showed the absurdity of super deep and dark teen titans and how absurd it becomes.

This clip sums up the "fandoms" attitude
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u-s2lugD2ds

Of course, the response fantastic
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KhPq1hSKtbA

You also have to remember, Young Justice had its chance, and when the between shows bumper was getting higher ratings than the show, then there is a problem. They had a series of chibi titans which was part of the DC universe on Saturdays...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNSnUXeWDs


I would say a lot of what CN makes isn't necessarily "for kids" as much as it is "kid friendly". Good comedy and good stories transcend generations and something doesn't have to be adult only to be good. Steven Universe is one of the best shows on TV right now with a slowly revealing story which is turning out to be deeper than most adult series. It is uplifting, super progressive, and can be enjoyed by child and adult alike.

Kid shows don't have to be shallow, adult shows don't need to always have violence or mature themes.

Teen titans go, Steven universe, adventure time and regular show have a lot in them for adults to enjoy. I wouldn't call all of them "kids only" but I do see the Teen Titans Go hate is mostly over the difference from Young Justice and the cancellation of YJ, not so much that teen titans go is a bad show.

Except that the other DC cartoons DID have good fan response.

The problem is that the network only wanted shows that would appeal to a very specific demographic. They wanted a very small age bracket of young boys, which is why they wacky plot-less nonsense of Teen Titans Go is what they went with. Rather than continuing with shows which appealed to female audiences, and slightly older audiences, they went with the audience they could brainwash into buying more toys.

The existence of Teen TItans Go is pretty disgusting, because of the exploitative, sexist decision making that led to it.



On the topic of target audiences, it's a pretty brain dead producer (or writer) who doesn't realize that most children's shows will be watched frequently by adults. A parent isn't going to watch every episode with their kid, but they should definitely be watching most. As young children, television shows should be something the family shares, something to bring parents and their children together, rather than just something to plunk your kids in front of in order to get some free time. The majority of my child's television time is shared television time. At a certain age, yes, I will let him have his own shows to watch in his own time. But by that age he's out of the demographic that the toy-hockers want him in anyway.

(I'm not unrealistic. Sometimes you need to switch the laundry, and the best way to make sure Li'l Fritz doesn't microwave his hand is to put something on TV. But that should be the exception, rather than the rule.)

To that end, making a TV show that both children AND adults will find entertaining is damn difficult. It's probably one of the hardest kinds of shows to create, honestly. Obviously not all adults are going to be entertained by the same shows, (same as all kids aren't) but the salient point is this: finding a show that both you and your child can enjoy is what's important. Making the TV a way of connecting with your family over a shared activity, rather than disconnecting from the world around you, benefits both parent and child. And a paucity of television shows that enable this shared activity, should it exist, would definitely be a cause for concern.

 Jimsolo wrote:


To that end, making a TV show that both children AND adults will find entertaining is damn difficult. It's probably one of the hardest kinds of shows to create, honestly. Obviously not all adults are going to be entertained by the same shows, (same as all kids aren't) but the salient point is this: finding a show that both you and your child can enjoy is what's important. Making the TV a way of connecting with your family over a shared activity, rather than disconnecting from the world around you, benefits both parent and child. And a paucity of television shows that enable this shared activity, should it exist, would definitely be a cause for concern.

IMO, the video more goes on how people, especially young "Adults" put their baggage and weight on kids TV shows, in that they think kids TV should be pushing a certain agenda. He never said it was bad for adults to like a kids show, but dont expect a kids show, made for kids, is going to cater to you.

 Jimsolo wrote:
They wanted a very small age bracket of young boys, which is why they wacky plot-less nonsense of Teen Titans Go is what they went with.

That's not really true. While it's very true that CN seems to prefer shows that will see lots of use on Minivan TVs and sell toys, it's also very clear that isn't their only consideration. Adventure Time and Regular Show in particular, while kid friendly, are blatantly targeted at college students (really people who were growing up in the 90s and early 2000s). It's really blatant, and college students are a huge chunk of CN's viewership not just during adult swim but during prime time hours as well. Most college students don't exactly have kids yet. Cartoon Network figured out at least a decade ago that there are grown ups who watch cartoons. They've been playing to it ever since. Just because they cancelled one show you liked doesn't really change that.

Steven Universe is very clearly an attempt by CN to compete with MLP and a recent wave of "kind of girly but cool" TV cartoons. People might not like TTG because it's not dark, but it's just childish (see what I did there ) to call it 'kiddy.' Teen Titans Go is a straight out love letter to Teen Titan's fandom. The whole series is a giant affectionate parody of comic books in general and its awesome. So what if it's kind of kiddy?

The sad reality that DC fans refuse to accept is that; dark comic book cartoons is a niche demographic. You and I might find them cool, but you really have to be a comic fan to really want the darker edgier side of comics. Like it or not, it just doesn't sell well. Not on Cable television anyway... As great a show as Young Justice was, it's ratings were gak for it's time slot. CN cancelled it for perfectly legitimate reasons; why spend money making something that isn't selling (But look on the bright side. Netflix has hinted that they're resurrecting the series They've been doing pretty good lately right)? Rather, the Teen Titan's Go shorts that they started showing, received great fan reaction. Enough to convince CN to actually turn the shorts into a full series.

Anyone who says producers write things parents will like has never seen Barney. There is an entire religious order dedicated to taking down the Antic...er...Barney.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Except that the other DC cartoons DID have good fan response..

The problem is 'FANS' from adult fandoms make up statistically insignificant populations. Hasbro tells transformers fans they are 7% or less of the buying population.

Of course Adult DC fans loved young justice... they didn't tune in enough to keep it on the air. Both batmans, Green lantern and Young Justice had gak ratings. The bumpers for 'new teen titans' was more popular than the actual shows. And Teen Titans Go is a funny show and enjoyable by children and adults.

Too many adult fandom people feel a show should cater to them and the kids will accept anything put between their dull little faces, and that has been proven time and time again it is not true. CN makes great shows for kids with adult appeal without making pointlessly adult only content which doesn't appeal to kids. Even Clarence and Uncle Grandpa has appeal to adults as well as being 'progressive' in its own way.

American Cartoons are one and done with a seasonal loose arc if you are lucky... Adults want serialized stories which do poorly with kids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

Steven Universe is very clearly an attempt by CN to compete with MLP and a recent wave of "kind of girly but cool" TV cartoons.

I dunno, Just because Steven universe has a lot of female characters, I would hardly call it 'girlie'.

After the March 2015 stevenbomb, the series has caught a lot of interest due to really growing the beard. You see Silly seemingly filler episodes are much deeper and foreshadow things to come. If you have written it off as 'Wants to be MLP' I really suggest giving it a second viewing. (Specifically Episode 45-50ish and starting around episode 25 is when the beard is grown)

I also have to say, I really applaud CN's attempt to change the landscape of children's cartoons to be inclusive. The Censors are all over their asses about homosexuality. Clarence had two men kissing censored but later had Jeff be a little boy with two moms. Adventure Time was forced back from the edge of an on-screen confirmation of a lesbian relationship. Steven Universe is the closest thing to portraying two females being in a loving, romantic relationship. (albeit space alien females) A lot of these things are seen as 'normal' by the kids because they have no reason to think otherwise. It is adults which need to make issues of it.

nkelsch wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:


American Cartoons are one and done with a seasonal loose arc if you are lucky... Adults want serialized stories which do poorly with kids.

I would have to say this is the problem; American Adults are growing up/getting hooked on Anime, and want an American version of that. The moment we get a show that shows potential (Young Justice, Teen Titans) it get canceled in favor of Teen Titans Go! or Adventure Time.

Now, don't get me wrong, the original Teen Titans lasted 3 seasons (More than most anime can say) and I love myself some good Adventure Time, but it feels like American Cartoons are practically limited to South Park/Family Guy/Simpsons (Super Raunchy Politically charged jokes), Adventure Time/Spongebob Squarepants/Teen Titans Go! (Which, as fun as they are, are Stupid for Stupid's sake), or outliers with extraordinary writing (MLP seasons 1-3; haven't seen the new ones so can't comment)

When can we see America's version of Trigun, Cowboy Beebop, or Fullmetal Alchemist? We've really only had one, being the Avatar series.

nkelsch wrote:
If you have written it off as 'Wants to be MLP' I really suggest giving it a second viewing. (Specifically Episode 45-50ish and starting around episode 25 is when the beard is grown)

Not what I'm getting at at all. In my eye, Steven Universe falls into a trend of cartoons started by MLP that try to bridge shows directed at boys with those directed at girls to get both boys and girls to watch it. I say it as a good thing, not a negative and I don't say it as "MLP rip off" as I'm merely pointing out SU wants to succeed in the same demographic body that MLP has.

 Frazzled wrote:
Anyone who says producers write things parents will like has never seen Barney. There is an entire religious order dedicated to taking down the Antic...er...Barney.

The only good Jihad.

nkelsch wrote:
You also have to remember, Young Justice had its chance, and when the between shows bumper was getting higher ratings than the show, then there is a problem.

 LordofHats wrote:
... Like it or not, it just doesn't sell well. Not on Cable television anyway... As great a show as Young Justice was, it's ratings were gak for it's time slot. CN cancelled it for perfectly legitimate reasons; why spend money making something that isn't selling...

People keep saying this, but it differs pretty significantly from what I've been hearing. Where are the numbers? Can you back this assertion up with anything, 'cause it sounds to me much like the old (downright circular): "it was cancelled due to bad ratings, you know it had bad ratings because it was cancelled".

 Jimsolo wrote:

To that end, making a TV show that both children AND adults will find entertaining is damn difficult. It's probably one of the hardest kinds of shows to create, honestly. Obviously not all adults are going to be entertained by the same shows, (same as all kids aren't) but the salient point is this: finding a show that both you and your child can enjoy is what's important. Making the TV a way of connecting with your family over a shared activity, rather than disconnecting from the world around you, benefits both parent and child. And a paucity of television shows that enable this shared activity, should it exist, would definitely be a cause for concern.

I think that that's why the recent spate of Dreamworks movies, such as the Shrek films were so successful... they wrote jokes in such as way that kids got a "silly" laugh, but they were also written, at the exact same time, so that adults were seeing the innuendo, double-entendre and more "adult" humor involved in the movies.

The best part of these kinds of jokes, is that while each audience may laugh a different times, there is no real pressure for the adult to explain any of the more adult jokes to the kids.

 Frazzled wrote:
Anyone who says producers write things parents will like ....

That wasn't actually quite what people were saying.

There are certainly plenty of kids shows made that are painful to watch. But the end result of that is that a lot of kids don't get to watch them.

 Pendix wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
You also have to remember, Young Justice had its chance, and when the between shows bumper was getting higher ratings than the show, then there is a problem.

 LordofHats wrote:
... Like it or not, it just doesn't sell well. Not on Cable television anyway... As great a show as Young Justice was, it's ratings were gak for it's time slot. CN cancelled it for perfectly legitimate reasons; why spend money making something that isn't selling...

People keep saying this, but it differs pretty significantly from what I've been hearing. Where are the numbers? Can you back this assertion up with anything, 'cause it sounds to me much like the old (downright circular): "it was cancelled due to bad ratings, you know it had bad ratings because it was cancelled".

Adventure time regularly pulls 3 million viewers for reruns... Young justice was pulling 1.9 for premiers and trash for reruns. Green lantern pulled 1.7.

And you know what crushed and still crushes Saturday morning? Good old Pokemon at 8am.

Now let's look at the cost to produce the series, young justice and green lantern are expensive, and require toy sales to justify the show when the ratings are weak... And the toys for young justice and green lantern were awful. When clone wars was strong, ratings and toy sales were strong. Ben 10 was massive at its peak.

Cheaper, simpler and reruns of the juggernaut shows all crushed the DC block, and the toy sales grossly underperformed.

Even when the fans made a big push at the end to increase ratings when the shows were wrapping up, the ratings did not go up.

Many "good shows" have no business being on TV. Korra was doomed to online only at the end because reruns of spongebob crushed it.

You also have the whole thing where CN wants to develop their own Stuff which they can own toy rights to, like Ben 10 and why TF animated got cancelled and thrown out by CNs studios mid-season. It is a vicious business, not an art house.

Ben & Holly’s Little Kingdom is better than most adult tv.

nkelsch wrote:


And you know what crushed and still crushes Saturday morning? Good old Pokemon at 8am.
.

Surely not. I have it on good authority that everyone forgot about Pokemon years ago.

Im sure gamefreaks sale figures say otherwise

nkelsch wrote:
Adventure time regularly pulls 3 million viewers for reruns... Young justice was pulling 1.9 for premiers and trash for reruns. Green lantern pulled 1.7.

And you know what crushed and still crushes Saturday morning? Good old Pokemon at 8am.

Now let's look at the cost to produce the series, young justice and green lantern are expensive, and require toy sales to justify the show when the ratings are weak... And the toys for young justice and green lantern were awful. When clone wars was strong, ratings and toy sales were strong. Ben 10 was massive at its peak.

Cheaper, simpler and reruns of the juggernaut shows all crushed the DC block, and the toy sales grossly underperformed.

Even when the fans made a big push at the end to increase ratings when the shows were wrapping up, the ratings did not go up.

Many "good shows" have no business being on TV. Korra was doomed to online only at the end because reruns of spongebob crushed it.

Ok, some actual numbers, that's a good start, could you point me to a source? I'd love to dig deeper into those numbers. I'll concede, they arn't great numbers, but they aren't a disaster either. Not everything has to be Spongebob & Adventure time after all. There is also the question of why those ratings were what they were, but that's a whole other kettle of worms.

nkelsch wrote:
It is a vicious business, not an art house.

*sigh* Times like this I am glad BTAS got made in the 90s. It wouldn't have lasted a whole season in the current climate.

 Pendix wrote:
I'll concede, they arn't great numbers, but they aren't a disaster either.

They were a disaster. That's why the shows got cancelled (granted, the Green Lantern series and Beware the Batman were legitimately bad and having to follow the former didn't help). Even Justice League barely managed to stay on the air for 4 Years, and it was for the most part quite well made with decent ratings. Batman Beyond did great in season 1, then slowly began to tank in season 2. Invader Zim. Megas XLR. America Dragon Jake Long. Lots of good cartoons have died before their time. YJ is exactly alone in that.

I won't deny that CN has (seemingly) gone out of its way to sabotage good cartoons. Megas XLR and The Life and Times of Juniper Lee in particular seemed to be the subjects of outright vindictiveness by CN executives. Constantly changing their time slot week to week with no word prior. Putting them in bad time slots where they couldn't compete. And pretty much completely failing to even mention Megas' 2nd season in ads or Juniper Lee's 3rd (fans literally missed that Juniper Lee even got a 3rd season its airing was so cryptic).

Young Justice was not one of those shows. It had a good time slot (a prime one even). It wasn't being constantly shifted around. There really wasn't any competition on other networks. CN advertised the hell out of it. Reality is it just fell flat. Despite critical acclaim, it just didn't have good ratings. There really isn't a way to spin that. On top of that, its merchandising power pretty much turned out to be zero. The best CN could hope for was DVD sales, which with the horrendously low ratings on reruns, were unlikely to be enough to justify the high production values of the series.

*sigh* Times like this I am glad BTAS got made in the 90s. It wouldn't have lasted a whole season in the current climate.

The climate where people judgmentally (and narcissistically imo) assume TV networks must be out to get their favorite shows just because the ratings were gak and they got canceled? Seems like a stretch

Justice League cartoon. So many naughty jokes, not designed for kids: "I'm the Flash; fastest man alive!" "Oh, so that's why you can't keep a girlfriend." "Yea-ohhh...."

This was marketed as a Y7 cartoon. I call horse gak.

Animated Batman cartoon of the 90s. That was dark, man. Not kid level, although they could enjoy the colors and villains.

Fast forward to modern shows. Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes; sure, it was bright and colorful and the characters bickered a bit with some occasional childlike arguments, but 90% of it focused on old comics that kids today would have never read, plots that lasted from season 1 into season 2 (attention span issues, not missing a single episode), yeah, another Y7 cartoon that was meant for kids to be able to enjoy while their parents watched.

Maybe it's just that good super hero shows are good. And these three were some of the best. Batman: TAS and Avengers: EMH were definitely the cream of the comic cartoon stock. Young Justice was probably number 3. Another with long story arcs and serious adult levels of activity going on.

Once you started seeing Man of Action credits in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is was all over but the crying. They tanked the series.

Man I loved that show.

Face it. If it wasn't Bugs Bunny it was crap.

I have to say that even though some of the older cartoons have aged well (the 90s animated batman and pre-movie spongebob) I really don't get the whole "Adult Fandom for children's show" thing.

Even the best kids shows really don't come close to the sort of narrative depth and quality you see in more adult oriented shows like Breaking Bad, GoT, House of Cards, etc.

I can see how someone over the age of 12 can get die hard fanatical over something like GoT or Breaking Bad, but over something like MlP? (Especially MlP. Is it internet trolls going for the long con or something far more insidious like a cult or world wide pyramid scheme ?)

The main defense I see for a group's fanaticism over cartoon ponies or talking animals or what have you is dragging out that one long suffering C.S. Louis quote (we all know the one) from the depths and throwing to the raging mobs as a means to buy time and divert attention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:
The reason "Teen titans go" is hated is because all the other DC cartoons, especially "young justice" were cancelled. Especially young justice which ended without a wrap up.

They want to know why "good shows" get cancelled for "kid crap". Well, Teen Titans Go did a feth off episode to the young justice people which was fantastic. It was the equivalent of South Park the movie telling parents "don't take your kids to adult movies." It showed the absurdity of super deep and dark teen titans and how absurd it becomes.

This clip sums up the "fandoms" attitude
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u-s2lugD2ds

Of course, the response fantastic
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KhPq1hSKtbA

You also have to remember, Young Justice had its chance, and when the between shows bumper was getting higher ratings than the show, then there is a problem. They had a series of chibi titans which was part of the DC universe on Saturdays...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNSnUXeWDs


I would say a lot of what CN makes isn't necessarily "for kids" as much as it is "kid friendly". Good comedy and good stories transcend generations and something doesn't have to be adult only to be good. Steven Universe is one of the best shows on TV right now with a slowly revealing story which is turning out to be deeper than most adult series. It is uplifting, super progressive, and can be enjoyed by child and adult alike.

Kid shows don't have to be shallow, adult shows don't need to always have violence or mature themes.

Teen titans go, Steven universe, adventure time and regular show have a lot in them for adults to enjoy. I wouldn't call all of them "kids only" but I do see the Teen Titans Go hate is mostly over the difference from Young Justice and the cancellation of YJ, not so much that teen titans go is a bad show.

I have to say they're tolerable for adults at best, but don't really come close to more adult oriented content.

I'm not saying their bad (they certainly aren't. They're great shows!) but most people over the age of 14 will take an episode of the Office or the Simpsons over any of the examples you offered without a second guess.

Also those linked videos we're amazing. The creators really did a good job conveying "What did you expect from a kid's show? Oedipus the King? The Odyssey? The shows made for kids and that's okay."

While at first I agreed with the "anti-Teen Titans Go" crowd, I eventually came to the conclusion that they're are better things to worry about in life than a kids show being replaced by a slightly more juvenile kids show.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I have to say that even though some of the older cartoons have aged well (the 90s animated batman and pre-movie spongebob) I really don't get the whole "Adult Fandom for children's show" thing.

Even the best kids shows really don't come close to the sort of narrative depth and quality you see in more adult oriented shows like Breaking Bad, GoT, House of Cards, etc.

I can see how someone over the age of 12 can get die hard fanatical over something like GoT or Breaking Bad, but over something like MlP? (Especially MlP. Is it internet trolls going for the long con or something far more insidious like a cult or world wide pyramid scheme ?)

The main defense I see for a group's fanaticism over cartoon ponies or talking animals or what have you is dragging out that one long suffering C.S. Louis quote (we all know the one) from the depths and throwing to the raging mobs as a means to buy time and divert attention.

Yes, if someone claims to like something you don't like, the only possible scenario is that they're just trying to wind you up.

I have to say they're tolerable for adults at best, but don't really come close to more adult oriented content.

That really depends on what said adult is looking for.

I would much rather watch Adventure Time or Regular Show or... well, just about anything than the Office. Either version.

Hell, I'd rather turn to an untuned channel and watch the static than watch the Office.


Having more 'adult' story elements doesn't automatically make a show more entertaining... and conversely, having fewer of them doesn't automatically make a show less entertaining. Particularly if what you're looking for is just something that's light and fluffy and fun, rather than a satirical social critique.

The Office is terrible. If that's "quality" in your book, then sign me up for your version of "crap". Blech

I never said I personally would pick the office, just that a lot of people I know would.