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 Azreal13 wrote:
The one about growing amongst people who disagree with you, or the one about every idiot being entitled to an opinion?

Yes.

Is the third one new?

Reasonably..

 Azreal13 wrote:
Reasonably..

Hmmm, I don't see it in the minutes from the last GW Hater Monthly Meeting.

I'll let it slide for now.

 Guildsman wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
Realy I think AoS has some real potential if GW puts some effort into it and can pull in a great year, it could set them up for a real chance at making back what was lost at fantasy.

But they have to have learn from all there mistakes with fantasy, no more leaving factions and players in the dust for years...
If they have learn, And we see a update to the rules and support within the next few months I would think it can be successful.
If this is it, and we don't see any info on any new faction within a few months I think it will start to falter.

People who don't like eternals or KHORNE are effectively sitting around waiting to find out if they should even bother getting excited. And this is where GW fail before, there is only so long players will wait for stuff to get there interest.
GW needs to market there new game better and talk about the future a bit now. Why everyone is watching them. That's something that you can't pay for and GW is throwing it away.

See, the assumption that you're making is that GW have built a solid base for this game which they can build on. Many of us, myself included, don't share that assumption. GW has done little over the past decade or more to encourage us to trust in their ability to handle such a major relaunch. For crissake, the Dark Angels codex has formations in it that are impossible to use, RAW. Why should we trust them to handle building a whole game from scratch?

Also, when the first step to success for your game is "fix the non-functioning rules," you're already in trouble.

I think you misunderstood, or my English fail a bit late at night, I don't think GW has built a solid base for the game, I think they can.
But they have to change there ways, the dark angels formation can't happen again and again.
As other rules issues shouldn't.
As a community we should know that it's only getting so much attention since it's a GW product and bares the fantasy name, but that alone can't make it successful.
This game I think will show where GW stands for the future, if it fails then GW will be left with 40k. There is money for GW in these products, they just have to put in some effort to get it.

 Korraz wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, everyone should shut up if they dont like it?

Yes, at least until they've played it.

Well, I did, today.
It's not fun. In fact, by turn two you are starting to wonder what you are doing here at all, because you start to feel a little silly. And that's before pretending to ride a horse and talking to it. It's not a good game, by any measure and I'd wager I could throw something together of the same quality in a single afternoon.

As an opposing view, I have a store full of people playing it and liking it, many of them older players who have played wfb for over 10 years, sometimes 20 or more. First tournament is Sunday.

And the boxed set has none of the silly rules.

Fair enough, all statements on the state of games are, after all, anecdotal

 mikhaila wrote:

 Korraz wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, everyone should shut up if they dont like it?

Yes, at least until they've played it.

Well, I did, today.
It's not fun. In fact, by turn two you are starting to wonder what you are doing here at all, because you start to feel a little silly. And that's before pretending to ride a horse and talking to it. It's not a good game, by any measure and I'd wager I could throw something together of the same quality in a single afternoon.

As an opposing view, I have a store full of people playing it and liking it, many of them older players who have played wfb for over 10 years, sometimes 20 or more. First tournament is Sunday.

And the boxed set has none of the silly rules.

To be honest, the idea of making the existing armies 'silly and embarrasing to play' as a 'last hurrah' for them is insulting at best.

People spent hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on those armies, and put many hundreds of hours into them. For GW to purposely try to make you embarrassed to play them in order to get people to migrate to newer armies is, again, pretty insulting, and another sign of them treating you as a wallet.

 -Loki- wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

 Korraz wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, everyone should shut up if they dont like it?

Yes, at least until they've played it.

Well, I did, today.
It's not fun. In fact, by turn two you are starting to wonder what you are doing here at all, because you start to feel a little silly. And that's before pretending to ride a horse and talking to it. It's not a good game, by any measure and I'd wager I could throw something together of the same quality in a single afternoon.

As an opposing view, I have a store full of people playing it and liking it, many of them older players who have played wfb for over 10 years, sometimes 20 or more. First tournament is Sunday.

And the boxed set has none of the silly rules.

To be honest, the idea of making the existing armies 'silly and embarrasing to play' as a 'last hurrah' for them is insulting at best.

People spent hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on those armies, and put many hundreds of hours into them. For GW to purposely try to make you embarrassed to play them in order to get people to migrate to newer armies is, again, pretty insulting, and another sign of them treating you as a wallet.

1 - no one forced them to buy thousands of "currency" worth of armies
2 - no one forced them to spend many hundreds of hours of painting/modelling them
3 - no one forces you to be embarrassed by using the "silly" abilities heck they do not even force you to take it seriously, it is a game of goblins and dragons, heck using cognitive reasoning you could IGNORE those particular abilities and play without the silliness

4 - every company sees us as "customers" and not wallets, same as GW, GW could have ended warhammer fantasy and focused on 40k as their only source of income and it would make more sense than to keep WFB alive (since it was dying and DYING and dying and we could bicker and argue about how to fix it but it was dying) so they did the next best thing, restart it...

I mean lets be honest, if fantasy and AoS cease to be do you really think GW would suffer that much? if anything they would make more money on 40k by releasing more things and focusing on that IP alone.

People seldom force anyone to do anything, often attempting to do so will result in police prosecution and imprisonment.

That doesn't invalidate any of the issues people may raise.

But posting such a poorly constructed argument has actually lowered the overall level of discourse in this thread noticeably, please try harder.

Oh, and as for '4' most businesses see customers as an important asset, to be nurtured and cultivated, GW acts like customers are a resource to be exploited. Less protecting and managing a beautiful area of countryside to encourage visitors who spend money again and again, more strip mining the whole area.

 Azreal13 wrote:
People seldom force anyone to do anything, often attempting to do so will result in police prosecution and imprisonment.

That doesn't invalidate any of the issues people may raise.

But posting such a poorly constructed argument has actually lowered the overall level of discourse in this thread noticeably, please try harder.

Oh, and as for '4' most businesses see customers as an important asset, to be nurtured and cultivated, GW acts like customers are a resource to be exploited. Less protecting and managing a beautiful area of countryside to encourage visitors who spend money again and again, more strip mining the whole area.

I assure you that my publisher does not think of customers as wallets. We talk to them as friends and listen to what they want because we genuinely like them. Because we are them.
Wargaming is for nerds. I'm proud to be a nerd. We like communities where we can get together and talk nerd-stuff. GW is no longer apart of that community and has actively discouraged that community in places. For that, I won't give them a dime until they change.

You really should try to move on with your life if you feel that hardly done by.

And some companies are even willing to talk about the business decisions that they make.

Hell, if you make the mistake of asking the Pughs at Reaper about the business decisions, they will bring out graphs and charts.... (I am joking about it being a mistake - but I, for one, was unprepared for the enthusiasm that they used when presenting the numbers. They are happy bean counters - and ones that enjoy their work enough that it is contagious.)

The Auld Grump - so I never make the mistake of saying that GW is having problems because the bean counters are in charge - they just need better bean counters.

*EDIT* Paizo is another company that is willing to talk - and are willing to admit when they have made mistakes.

Bean counters need to be in charge of all companies. I know, I'm a bean counter.

 notprop wrote:
You really should try to move on with your life if you feel that hardly done by.

Switching tactics to try to shame the opposition into silence? Try using arguments next time.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 notprop wrote:
You really should try to move on with your life if you feel that hardly done by.

Switching tactics to try to shame the opposition into silence? Try using arguments next time.

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europe vincendarum.

The Auld Grump, but then, who doesn't?

 Azreal13 wrote:
People seldom force anyone to do anything, often attempting to do so will result in police prosecution and imprisonment.

That doesn't invalidate any of the issues people may raise.

But posting such a poorly constructed argument has actually lowered the overall level of discourse in this thread noticeably, please try harder.

Oh, and as for '4' most businesses see customers as an important asset, to be nurtured and cultivated, GW acts like customers are a resource to be exploited. Less protecting and managing a beautiful area of countryside to encourage visitors who spend money again and again, more strip mining the whole area.

their argument is as follows

"GW is a bad company because they do things that I do not agree with because even though they are successful and make a profit I believe they should do this and this and this because as a company they should make me happy instead of making themselves a profit"

as their CEO said "we are in the business of making miniatures"... and they are still the best at it.

oh and by the way

this

"But posting such a poorly constructed argument has actually lowered the overall level of discourse in this thread noticeably, please try harder. "

is more or less an ad hominem... and I am not trying to have an argument, arguments are conflicts, I prefer discussions...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
People seldom force anyone to do anything, often attempting to do so will result in police prosecution and imprisonment.

That doesn't invalidate any of the issues people may raise.

But posting such a poorly constructed argument has actually lowered the overall level of discourse in this thread noticeably, please try harder.

Oh, and as for '4' most businesses see customers as an important asset, to be nurtured and cultivated, GW acts like customers are a resource to be exploited. Less protecting and managing a beautiful area of countryside to encourage visitors who spend money again and again, more strip mining the whole area.

I assure you that my publisher does not think of customers as wallets. We talk to them as friends and listen to what they want because we genuinely like them. Because we are them.
Wargaming is for nerds. I'm proud to be a nerd. We like communities where we can get together and talk nerd-stuff. GW is no longer apart of that community and has actively discouraged that community in places. For that, I won't give them a dime until they change.

they have been rather good to me lately, been able to discuss a lot with the GW manager, love their miniature guides, their paints and such are great, modelling tools are top quality, I am going to get tips from the GW manager about painting and playing later on this month, miniatures are top of the line and they are "trying" to keep a dying part of their business alive (WFB) when they could just end it and move on to things that make a profit.

Except, of course, that they aren't the best miniatures.

Some of their lines are decent, some are good, and some are drek.

Mostly... they are middle of the road.

And their CEO is making decisions that are hurting the company - not helping it expand in a time when the industry as a whole is expanding by double digits.

The Auld Grump

bitethythumb wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
People seldom force anyone to do anything, often attempting to do so will result in police prosecution and imprisonment.

That doesn't invalidate any of the issues people may raise.

But posting such a poorly constructed argument has actually lowered the overall level of discourse in this thread noticeably, please try harder.

Oh, and as for '4' most businesses see customers as an important asset, to be nurtured and cultivated, GW acts like customers are a resource to be exploited. Less protecting and managing a beautiful area of countryside to encourage visitors who spend money again and again, more strip mining the whole area.

their argument is as follows

"GW is a bad company because they do things that I do not agree with because even though they are successful and make a profit I believe they should do this and this and this because as a company they should make me happy instead of making themselves a profit"

as their CEO said "we are in the business of making miniatures"... and they are still the best at it.

Firstly characterising everyone with something critical to say as "they" and attributing the same argument to all of "them" is dramatically oversimplifying the situation.

Secondly, by so dramatically oversimplifying the situation you've shown a lack of awareness. I don't characterise GW as a "bad company," there's no such thing. I think they're poorly run, and many of their actions (withdrawal from the customer base, heavy handed legal tactics, doubling down on ideas that are already showing they aren't working etc, etc, etc) run completely contrary to established best practice, or just plain common sense, frequently the GW approach to problem solving is akin to punching yourself in the face in order to scratch your nose.

Finally, although Grump has already covered this, they categorically don't make the best miniatures, they make some nice models sure, but they're charging Ferrari money for their Porsche models.

oh and by the way

this

"But posting such a poorly constructed argument has actually lowered the overall level of discourse in this thread noticeably, please try harder. "

is more or less an ad hominem... and I am not trying to have an argument, arguments are conflicts, I prefer discussions...

No, I was attacking your argument, in a very literal sense, it was dreadful to use "nobody forced you" as any sort of defence, and if it's the best you've got then there's no discussion to be had.

 notprop wrote:
Bean counters need to be in charge of all companies. I know, I'm a bean counter.

With the greatest of respect to bean-counters though, really they should be there in the background and letting the creative types do their thing, applying a slight nudge to the rump at times, dangling a carrot at others and helping guide the ship.

Rather than being T-800s stood with Plasma rifles outside the guarded compound, while HKs circle above, the poor creative types huddled inside writing exactly what they are told and incinerated by said plasma rifles if they don't!

Which is really the only way you can possibly explain some of the rules of AoS, or the fact that GW is not continuing to sell 8th edition even in a limited/direct only form, which really is the only problem I have with any of this..

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, and as for '4' most businesses see customers as an important asset, to be nurtured and cultivated, GW acts like customers are a resource to be exploited. Less protecting and managing a beautiful area of countryside to encourage visitors who spend money again and again, more strip mining the whole area.

I think most businesses see their customers as long-term cashflow, not.... plants. You don't need to water and feed your customers; you don't need to shower them with love or talk to them for them to send more money. You just need to make products that they want, and they will buy them. When was the last time Apple asked anyone what the next iPhone should look like? When was the last time the hugged their customer and treated them like a chia plant? It's just an expensive gadget that people like, and the vast majority of iPhone users could care less what Tim Cook says or does (or Steve Jobs, who was much more interesting). Most people who use Windows have no idea who Satya Nadella is, never heard of Steve Ballmer, and only know Bill Gates as the richest guy on Earth.

AoS isn't any more expensive than WMH now (I'd argue it's cheaper as a 20-30 model game if you pick comparable models).

GW isn't strip mining its customer base anymore than British Petroleum is. They're just making a product and selling it for the highest price they can get away with selling it for, which is the same strategy that just about everyone else uses. GW models are not even the most expensive models on the market. They don't force anyone to buy anything; quite to the opposite, they don't even spend money on marketing their stuff, so if you buy something, it's because you walked into a store, saw it on a shelf, and wanted it.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Except, of course, that they aren't the best miniatures.

Some of their lines are decent, some are good, and some are drek.

Mostly... they are middle of the road.

And their CEO is making decisions that are hurting the company - not helping it expand in a time when the industry as a whole is expanding by double digits.

The Auld Grump

ok... what if I say, they are the best?

you realise that other than our opinion the only way to prove either of us are wrong or right are sales... and they lead in that department.

Look I am not saying others do not make amazing minies (Perry miniatures look great if you are after the realistic historical look) but at the end of the day other than our opinion and when that fails (which it usually does because opinions are all equally wrong) its down to success and sales...

I will say this though, GW needs to make more female miniatures... which is clearly lacking (other than their fantastic ladyboys models, wyches)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, and as for '4' most businesses see customers as an important asset, to be nurtured and cultivated, GW acts like customers are a resource to be exploited. Less protecting and managing a beautiful area of countryside to encourage visitors who spend money again and again, more strip mining the whole area.

I think most businesses see their customers as long-term cashflow, not.... plants. You don't need to water and feed your customers; you don't need to shower them with love or talk to them for them to send more money. You just need to make products that they want, and they will buy them. When was the last time Apple asked anyone what the next iPhone should look like? When was the last time the hugged their customer and treated them like a chia plant? It's just an expensive gadget that people like, and the vast majority of iPhone users could care less what Tim Cook says or does (or Steve Jobs, who was much more interesting). Most people who use Windows have no idea who Satya Nadella is, never heard of Steve Ballmer, and only know Bill Gates as the richest guy on Earth.

AoS isn't any more expensive than WMH now (I'd argue it's cheaper as a 20-30 model game if you pick comparable models).

GW isn't strip mining its customer base anymore than British Petroleum is. They're just making a product and selling it for the highest price they can get away with selling it for, which is the same strategy that just about everyone else uses. GW models are not even the most expensive models on the market. They don't force anyone to buy anything; quite to the opposite, they don't even spend money on marketing their stuff, so if you buy something, it's because you walked into a store, saw it on a shelf, and wanted it.

bitethythumb wrote:

ok... what if I say, they are the best?

You'd either be wrong as a blanket statement, or partially correct or wrong based on the criteria, or so subjective its irrelevant to discuss.

You decide.

you realise that other than our opinion the only way to prove either of us are wrong or right are sales... and they lead in that department.

They lead now...but are dropping. That's been the whole point of this thread if you've been paying attention. Everyone here is aware that GW is the 400lbs gorilla in the room. What we're saying is that they used to be the 800lbs gorilla, but a lot of smaller companies are eating away at them, for many reasons.

Look I am not saying others do not make amazing minies (Perry miniatures look great if you are after the realistic historical look) but at the end of the day other than our opinion and when that fails (which it usually does because opinions are all equally wrong) its down to success and sales...

And again, if you've been reading the thread and other peoples' responses, you'd understand their sales are shrinking. Put it this way, GW makes so much money that they have to carry a larger cost to do; overhead, paying for materials, staff, so on. The day GW goes under (if/when), they'll still likely be turning over more revenue than most other companies in the market, its just that GW has to make so much more money to support their costs.

So yes, GW still makes a lot of money, but they're making less. That's the issue here.

I will say this though, GW needs to make more female miniatures... which is clearly lacking (other than their fantastic ladyboys models, wyches)

Yes, female Guard would be a welcome addition, though I'm getting mine from Vic Minis.

 Talys wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, and as for '4' most businesses see customers as an important asset, to be nurtured and cultivated, GW acts like customers are a resource to be exploited. Less protecting and managing a beautiful area of countryside to encourage visitors who spend money again and again, more strip mining the whole area.

I think most businesses see their customers as long-term cashflow, not.... plants. You don't need to water and feed your customers; you don't need to shower them with love or talk to them for them to send more money. You just need to make products that they want, and they will buy them. When was the last time Apple asked anyone what the next iPhone should look like? When was the last time the hugged their customer and treated them like a chia plant? It's just an expensive gadget that people like, and the vast majority of iPhone users could care less what Tim Cook says or does (or Steve Jobs, who was much more interesting). Most people who use Windows have no idea who Satya Nadella is, never heard of Steve Ballmer, and only know Bill Gates as the richest guy on Earth.

AoS isn't any more expensive than WMH now (I'd argue it's cheaper as a 20-30 model game if you pick comparable models).

GW isn't strip mining its customer base anymore than British Petroleum is. They're just making a product and selling it for the highest price they can get away with selling it for, which is the same strategy that just about everyone else uses. GW models are not even the most expensive models on the market. They don't force anyone to buy anything; quite to the opposite, they don't even spend money on marketing their stuff, so if you buy something, it's because you walked into a store, saw it on a shelf, and wanted it.

A long term customer is something you do cultivate a relationship with, just like a plant. Sure, you've tried to make it sound dumb by the language you've used, but there's a reason that salesmen are broadly characterised as either hunters or farmers, and that the farmer sort are broadly speaking most desirable in the majority of situations. So in actual fact you've countered your own argument. You're right, people don't care what the CEO does or says (necessarily) but they do care about things like the quality of the experience they receive when going into their shops (which Apple are known for.) Do you think the reduction to one man stores and relocation to out of the way locations has preserved the retail experience for GW's customers? How about the removal of in store gaming, or the de facto removal because of smaller units?

We have numerous incidents that can be cited as demonstrating senior management's less than stellar attitude towards the customers, and if you can come up with a better metaphor for milking a diminishing customer base for more and more cash in the short term to pay out in dividends with little regard to the future health of the company than strip mining then let's hear it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

No, I was attacking your argument, in a very literal sense, it was dreadful to use "nobody forced you" as any sort of defence, and if it's the best you've got then there's no discussion to be had.

It was not a defense, it was a statement of fact, the whole "GW does things I do not agree with" is a silly argument or statement for that matter, its their company and they run it how they see fit... there is a magic ability where you can STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS AND MOVE ON that sort of works but if you spent THOUSANDS of ££$$$ on their products and then cry when they do things you do not agree with, well, that is really your problem... as a company they do things what ALL companies do (THEY MAKE A PROFIT), if they wish to focus on miniature making and lore and ignore gaming, that is THEIR choice, not yours... if they want to restart WHFB that is THEIR choice and not yours and its YOUR choice to stop buying any of their products and move on.... remember GW is not a political party where they need to cuddle and hug their "customers"... they are a business, they make money, everything else is a process on how to make money, if they would make more money by being open and cuddling then they would..

40k is a success and other than slight sales down (which could be because of the economic downfall the world felt) it is successful and they do exactly what they have always done, why fix something (in a business sense) that is not broken :/

its like the whole MARVEL nonsense and battleworlds, people all complain about it but in end MARVEL is still making money and therefore its a success whether we agree with the ethics or not..

welcome to capitalism buddy.

bitethythumb wrote:


they have been rather good to me lately, been able to discuss a lot with the GW manager, love their miniature guides, their paints and such are great, modelling tools are top quality, I am going to get tips from the GW manager about painting and playing later on this month, miniatures are top of the line and they are "trying" to keep a dying part of their business alive (WFB) when they could just end it and move on to things that make a profit.

This is a very short sighted view. Just because you like their products and have a good relationship with your local manager does not mean that the company as a whole has very toxic business practices that are hurtful to the hobby and it's participants as a whole. These practices have been discussed in detail on this forum, and pretending they don't exist is willful ignorance. By supporting GW you actively hurt the hobby you claim to like.

Also if you truly believe they that Age of Sigmar was made out of the kindness of GW's hearts in order to keep fantasy alive, and was not made explicitly to redirect the hobby towards a new audience (younger kids) in order to make a profit, then you are drinking some serious GW Koolaid. I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that sentence, but if it is that is some massive propaganda.

Nkcell wrote:

bitethythumb wrote:


they have been rather good to me lately, been able to discuss a lot with the GW manager, love their miniature guides, their paints and such are great, modelling tools are top quality, I am going to get tips from the GW manager about painting and playing later on this month, miniatures are top of the line and they are "trying" to keep a dying part of their business alive (WFB) when they could just end it and move on to things that make a profit.

This is a very short sighted view. Just because you like their products and have a good relationship with your local manager does not mean that the company as a whole has very toxic business practices that are hurtful to the hobby and it's participants as a whole. These practices have been discussed in detail on this forum, and pretending they don't exist is willful ignorance. By supporting GW you actively hurt the hobby you claim to like.

Also if you truly believe they that Age of Sigmar was made out of the kindness of GW's hearts in order to keep fantasy alive, and was not made explicitly to redirect the hobby towards a new audience (younger kids) in order to make a profit, then you are drinking some serious GW Koolaid. I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that sentence, but if it is that is some massive propaganda.

ALL COMPANIES FOCUS ON PROFIT, they would not be companies otherwise :/ even PRIVATEER PRESS focuses on profit... and any other company you think off, how they go about making profits is their choice, GW is successful in making profits therefore they are a successful company if you do not like the way they make profits, find another company...

bitethythumb wrote:
40k is a success and other than slight sales down (which could be because of the economic downfall the world felt) it is successful and they do exactly what they have always done, why fix something (in a business sense) that is not broken :/

The wargaming and miniature markets as a whole have been steadily growing in the last years, GW being the most notable exception. So the economic crisis is hardly an excuse here.

Yeah, but most companies know the way to long term growth and profit isn't to keep kicking their customers in the nuts.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, but most companies know the way to long term growth and profit isn't to keep kicking their customers in the nuts.

GW has been kicking people in the balls since 1998

@Talys.
Selling your product at the highest price the market will stand , is what lots of companies do to great effect.
If the majority of your customer base still sees value in the product everything is great!

However, when you exceed the price the market can stand, you start seeing a down turn in sales volumes.
At which point you should look at adding value to you product range.
OR the sales volume declines to the point you have to increase retail prices even more to make up the shortfall, which drops sales volumes even more...And then this will eventually negatively impact profit margins.

Does this sound familiar?

@notprop.
'Bean counters' are experts at dealing with numbers.And are an important PART of a successful business.

However, the people that understand the product and all the processes involved in delivering it.And those people dealing with customers , to establish customer requirements, and most importantly what customers value most.
Should also be part of the decision making process.