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Let's get back to the topic of this thread please - GW financials!

Please take further discussion of AoS / gameplay / rules to the other appropriate threads in this section... thanks

 RiTides wrote:
Let's get back to the topic of this thread please - GW financials!

Please take further discussion of AoS / gameplay / rules to the other appropriate threads in this section... thanks

AOS is divisive and has split the remaining fanbase even further. This will impact GW's financials in a negative way. Even if AOS sells more fantasy kits, I doubt it will balance out with the players they've lost and are curently pushing away.
I see them giving 40k the same treatment and this will be detrimental to their finances. At this day and age, GW can't afford to lose more players and maintain their current position.
They lost revenue in spite of more and bigger releases than before. I don't see AOS or any future release stopping this decline until they work to repair their player base...which they wont.

AoS is also important because it gives us a look at what GW sees as the priorities of their target audience. WHFB was a game that met the priorities of their former customers and when those sales dropped off for long enough, it was only natural they'd replace it with something they thought would appeal to what GW imagines to be their target audience.

The real question is: will we see a new edition revenue bounce? Although to be fair, the last time they updated 40k to a new edition, it didn't do that much for them.

--

 Talys wrote:
@Az - I disagree. On the surface, Warhammer World, Warhammer Visions, 'Eavy Metal stuff, Golden Demons, all that. They have tournaments for painted models, but not for games.

Or, just paint a nice miniature, email it to GW, and you might be surprised at how much back-and-forth and modelling/painting chatter they engage in. In my conversations with people at GW (and I don't mean retail staff), it's pretty clear to me that folks at HQ really love miniatures, well modelled miniatures, and interesting painting techniques.

But, of course, you're entitled to think differently.

You're confusing specific examples for general points (again.)

I've no doubt that the sort of people who you email pictures to (do you really do that?!) that spend their days painting, modelling and designing miniatures love what they're doing and respond enthusiastically?

Have you tried emailing Kirby, or the head of accounts?

Pretty much every tournament has a three colour minimum, including the WHW gaming tournaments, and certainly the likes of visions and GD which encourages people who like to paint to buy models to paint aren't going to hurt sales, but I still maintain they simply need to sell an idea of something to do with the models you buy, and GD etc neatly appeal to the people who don't game, but whether you do or not is totally irrelevant to their approach.

There's an old saying in sales "sell the sizzle, not the sausage" and GW selling you the idea of painting a GD winning model is exactly the same concept as selling you the idea of an all conquering army that sweeps all before it on the table while your opponent tears up at the sheer awesomeness of your painting.

Whether you do this or not means nothing, GW just needs you to believe you can long enough to hand over your cash.

@Az - What you like to do is say, "this company doesn't do this at all!" Then when cited examples, you say, "but anyone can do that!" or " That's just general!"

So really, I have no idea what you're talking about.

GW does everything it possibly can for people who model and paint their miniatures. Think of it, and they do it. They have TONS of free videos on how to paint your model. They have books and books and books of painting guides with gigantic blowpup pictures and step by steps. Almost every magazine features painted miniatures, how to paint miniatures, and miniatures painted by readers. They have painting competitions. They do Parade Grounds. There are local events to show off your models. There is a specific, $10 / month picture book that serves no purpose other than to show off painted models by their studio and their readers.

So put on the other shoe: tell me, what does any other company do for their miniature painters? Who else has a painting competition that is anything close to the Golden Daemon? What other company supports its painters with the sheer volume of painting tutorials that GW does?

In the GW world, a winning model IS an awesomely painted model. There is no prize for being the best player. There are many prizes n many categories for being the best painter.

There are zero videos on "how to play imperial guard", but lots of videos on "how to paint scions" or "how to paint taurox prime". There are zero books that describe space marine strategy, yet endless books on how to model and paint yoru space marines. In all of the hundreds of videos on Warhammer TV, there isn't ONE that shows a game table, with an actual GAME. Not one! But hundreds of hours of dioramas and of explanations of how to go from plastic to beautiful diorama.

On a separate note, yes, sure I email pictures to the GW guys. I mean, why not? They're nice people, they are like-minded as me, and they enjoy chatting. Sometimes you get a model put in a publication, which is cool too -- I have a model that will soon appear as a Reader's Model of the Week

Just the other day, I emailed a photo of a Sanguinor, and the model has a defect (strangely warped backpack). Shortly thereafter I got a phone call asking for my address so that they could send me a replacement model. They opened a new web account for me (the one I already have uses a different, personal email), added my details, and sent out a whole new model by FedEx (my email signature has my work phone number). Here it is -- check out the right side of the backpack.


So yes, they do a lot for people who love their minis. They most certainly go the extra mile, in a way that they don't for gamers.

No, I haven't emailed Kirby. I haven't emailed Bill Gates, or Satya Nadella either. Or Tim Cook. Or Mark Mondragon. I assume these are pretty busy people who have better things to do than to shoot emails back and forth with me, and I wouldn't expect a reply if I sent an email to them.

Sure, a company's direction is controlled by its management, not its frontline staff. But a company's management dictates the company's culture, and this trickles down right from the top down. They hire people who have similar values as them.

If GW wanted to truly be a "Games Company" instead of a "Miniatures Company", all they'd have to do is put the same effort into writing a great game, that they currently put out for the painting & modelling folks.

Imagine if all the Wahammer TV videos were of strategy and gameplay. If instead of painting guides, they were tactica volumes and detailed battle reports. If instead of campaign books, they were complex scenarios. It would be a different company. One that would appeal to different people.

How can one use Golden Daemon as an argument that GW cares about the painting/modeling aspect of the hobby when they more or less eviscerated that part last year to save some money (what's left of about five to seven yearly Golden Daemon competitions?). If they really thought it is such an important part of the hobby then they would keep spending the money and use it as an investment to engage this part of their customer-base.

On the other hand the idea of focusing on the super fans is also kinda dubious. From all the descriptions these people are the ones who spend a lot of money and really like most of GW's work and seem to be less discerning about some parts of the hobby because they are so invested in it that they forgive or ignore some things that other people (who spend less) are not willing to compromise on. Wouldn't it be financially even better if GW were to try to create something that non-super-fans would like (if we assume a similar cost structure) to get some of that business as the super fans will just buy it anyways.

I don't think I have ever heard somebody complain about too solid rules, way too transparent release announcements, prices not rising, GW not lashing out with legal attacks, or GW taking a little more care of their lore. All these things have made people leave while super fans stuck with GW despite stuff getting worse in some way (because super fans were interested in some other part and that kept them going). Wouldn't improvements in this regard be financially sensible instead of GW kinda going for the boiling frog approach of shedding fans. In this case the super fans can be seen as the boiling frog as long as GW doesn't change whatever keeps the super fans happy.

Would any of the above mentioned things (solid rules, less price increases, transparent communication, less lawyers, less murderfang) make super fans stop buying? I don't think so and I also think that these things could be improved without costing the company too much money (smaller companies manage to do it after all). How is this focus on super fans financially optimal or better than trying to get more people into buying their stuff? To me it seems that at some point (when they survive on super fans only) they will end up like some very specially evolved organism in a very special environment where the smallest disturbance in the eco system dooms them because they can't adapt (figuratively speaking, I'm not saying GW is some unique bird that evolved in isolation and that will face extinction because someone imported some other critter to an island).

 Talys wrote:

GW does everything it possibly can for people who model and paint their miniatures. Think of it, and they do it.

Painting competitions. I can't make it to the UK for Golden Demon and there isn't one in Australia. Nor have I ever seen a white dwarf one. Because I live near a GW store I can enter unofficial ones every month which are lucky to get 6 entrants. If I didn't live near a store there would not even be unofficial 'GW' events.

 Talys wrote:
So put on the other shoe: tell me, what does any other company do for their miniature painters? Who else has a painting competition that is anything close to the Golden Daemon? What other company supports its painters with the sheer volume of painting tutorials that GW does?

Privateer Press.
They do OFFICIAL comps in their magazine every issue. They do more in depth painting guides than I see in white dwarf these days, as well as conversion guides for things like making your allies fit in more thematically with your army. They do painting competitions at conventions with massive prize support and a lot more than 20 entries (apparently GWs last 'mini games day' was a total bust with 45 entrats and only 20 in the single category golden demon).

PP does not do nearly as much to help people get into the hobby of painting and modelling miniatures -- just go on GW's site, look at the number of books and eBooks published on the subject, go to WarhammerTV and look on the number of super-high-quality videos on the subject, and compare with PP.

PP's DVD, Core Techniques (which I own and have watched), frankly, is junk. The equivalent Citadel DVD featuring Duncan Rhodes is like, 1000x better.

Golden Demon is by far the most prestigious (and recognized) miniature competition. Winning one will actually up your value as a painter (for commissions), if that's your thing. Local painting contests are generally horrible, because this is a pretty niche hobby, and the same people (and very small number of people) generally have the best models every time.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that PP doesn't do stuff for its modellers. I'm just saying GW has published, and continues to publish (both for free and as paid items) a lot more.

Golden Demon WAS the most prestigious once.

That was not joking or hyperbole about 20 people entering the last one, which had only one single category.

 Talys wrote:
@Az - What you like to do is say, "this company doesn't do this at all!" Then when cited examples, you say, "but anyone can do that!" or " That's just general!"

So really, I have no idea what you're talking about.

No, you really don't do you?

The fact that most everyone else seems to, means that I'm probably doing all I can at this end.

GW does everything it possibly can for people who model and paint their miniatures. Think of it, and they do it. They have TONS of free videos on how to paint your model. They have books and books and books of painting guides with gigantic blowpup pictures and step by steps. Almost every magazine features painted miniatures, how to paint miniatures, and miniatures painted by readers. They have painting competitions. They do Parade Grounds. There are local events to show off your models. There is a specific, $10 / month picture book that serves no purpose other than to show off painted models by their studio and their readers.

So put on the other shoe: tell me, what does any other company do for their miniature painters? Who else has a painting competition that is anything close to the Golden Daemon? What other company supports its painters with the sheer volume of painting tutorials that GW does?

What other company needs to?

There's a million resources out there freely available, only GW is so keen to control the exposure of their customers that they feel compelled to try and prevent them looking outside of their ecosystem.

In the GW world, a winning model IS an awesomely painted model. There is no prize for being the best player.

http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/events-hall/gaming-events/throne-of-skulls/

There are zero videos on "how to play imperial guard", but lots of videos on "how to paint scions" or "how to paint taurox prime". There are zero books that describe space marine strategy, yet endless books on how to model and paint yoru space marines. In all of the hundreds of videos on Warhammer TV, there isn't ONE that shows a game table, with an actual GAME. Not one! But hundreds of hours of dioramas and of explanations of how to go from plastic to beautiful diorama.

You know why? Because an actual game looks nothing like the sizzle they're selling. A real game has dice and tape measures and templates, a real game has units in sub optimal visual positions.

Battle reports won't win any prizes for cinematography, and I guess we're glossing over the many many dozens that were featured in WD?

Besides, modern GW doesn't want to tell us how to play with our toy soldiers, that's too proscriptive.

On a separate note, yes, sure I email pictures to the GW guys. I mean, why not? They're nice people, they are like-minded as me, and they enjoy chatting. Sometimes you get a model put in a publication, which is cool too -- I have a model that will soon appear as a Reader's Model of the Week

I mean, of course you should do what you like, but it just seems at odds with your stated belief that you don't care about what GW thinks of you or what it gets up to etc etc from previous threads as long as they're making models you love to then find out you actively solicit endorsement from them.

Just the other day, I emailed a photo of a Sanguinor, and the model has a defect (strangely warped backpack). Shortly thereafter I got a phone call asking for my address so that they could send me a replacement model. They opened a new web account for me (the one I already have uses a different, personal email), added my details, and sent out a whole new model by FedEx (my email signature has my work phone number). Here it is -- check out the right side of the backpack.

Spoiler:

So yes, they do a lot for people who love their minis. They most certainly go the extra mile, in a way that they don't for gamers.

Finecast is poor and customer services are decent, not really news?

No, I haven't emailed Kirby. I haven't emailed Bill Gates, or Satya Nadella either. Or Tim Cook. Or Mark Mondragon. I assume these are pretty busy people who have better things to do than to shoot emails back and forth with me, and I wouldn't expect a reply if I sent an email to them.

So, essentially you've emailed other hobbyists who just happen to work for GW? I'd be surprised if you hadn't got the sort of reaction you did.

Sure, a company's direction is controlled by its management, not its frontline staff. But a company's management dictates the company's culture, and this trickles down right from the top down. They hire people who have similar values as them.

Certainly not for skills, eh?

Given the wider perception of GW amongst some people, I'm not sure that made the point you were going for.

If GW wanted to truly be a "Games Company" instead of a "Miniatures Company", all they'd have to do is put the same effort into writing a great game, that they currently put out for the painting & modelling folks.

Imagine if all the Wahammer TV videos were of strategy and gameplay. If instead of painting guides, they were tactica volumes and detailed battle reports. If instead of campaign books, they were complex scenarios. It would be a different company. One that would appeal to different people.

Again, if you take GW at their word, they want you to find your own way of playing. Painting is very much a matter of learned technique and practiced skill. Besides, I'm pretty sure I've seen writing in WD around new releases discussing how they can be incorporated into existing armies, just because there's no videos doesn't mean they don't address it.

Personally, I think it's because the game lacks any real depth and there's insufficient material to do those sorts of things without exposing that flaw.

They don't do campaign books, they do scenario compilations, Warhammer is very scenario heavy in both incarnations, but it lacks any real narrative component to call it campaign.

Az, you just don't understand.

Some of us like the cinematography, the sizzle, the awesomeness models and collections, and just don't care about all the stuff that you care about, or at least, not as much. One day, maybe you'll realize that your priorities are not universally shared and that there is value in recognizing other points of view.

Enough people share this perspective to give GW a quarter billion US dollars last year, give or take, more than any other miniature wargaming company, so either we're a pretty big group, or we all spend a lot of money. It's not because we're forced to, or uninformed; it's because we feel that GW products and GW as a company happen to be the best fit for us.

I do see your point of view. I understand it, and simply do not share it, because I have different priorities than you.

So I will hang out with people who are like-minded with me, and enjoy our collections of cool miniatures, play games that are made for these collections, and you can go find and play games that are more amusing to you.

I bid thee well.

You don't even know what my priorities are.

You don't know what I spend my gaming time doing, you just assume because I'm not some unquestioning fanboy and I'm critical of GW that you do.

But hey, the opposing poster doing a half arsed attempt at some sort of last word post before declaring to be leaving the thread is the closest it gets to a win on an Internet forum, so I'll take it.

 Talys wrote:
One day, maybe you'll realize that your priorities are not universally shared and that there is value in recognizing other points of view.

I think this fairly sums up GW's diminishing sales and the growth of other miniature companies.

 Azreal13 wrote:
You don't even know what my priorities are.

You don't know what I spend my gaming time doing, you just assume because I'm not some unquestioning fanboy and I'm critical of GW that you do.

But hey, the opposing poster doing a half arsed attempt at some sort of last word post before declaring to be leaving the thread is the closest it gets to a win on an Internet forum, so I'll take it.

Feel free to have the last word, man. Your priorities and your opinions are no less important or valid as mine.

To take it back to the original topic of this thread (GW financials), I only point out that nearly (or a little more than?) quarter billion dollars in the last year went to GW last year from people who like GW enough to give them money, so we're not totally irrelevant, and I'm not some sort weird outlier. It seems odd that you'd say I'm unquestioningly critical of GW, as I criticize them all the time.

But feel free to take the Internet win -- whatever that means. It literally means less to me than winning a game of 40k (and lost to with BA to Tyranids not once, but TWICE last night, ARRRGH!). All I was trying to do is to share with you my perspective, which we clearly don't share (and this doesn't bother me), whatever your priorities may be.

You Win!

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Talys wrote:
One day, maybe you'll realize that your priorities are not universally shared and that there is value in recognizing other points of view.

I think this fairly sums up GW's diminishing sales and the growth of other miniature companies.

Yep.
Hell I am much more of a painter than a gamer these days but with rules as bad as GWs the games aren't fun enough for me to want am army, I only grab a box here and there to paint, but with other games I'll empty my wallet to get an army I can enjoy painting then take to a tourney and spend a day with other hobby enthusiasts.

I feel like I would be GWs target customer with the amount I spend on the hobby each month but nope, they seem happy to push me away rather than listen to and criticism at all.

 MWHistorian wrote:
AOS is divisive and has split the remaining fanbase even further.

We don't know that yet, and, assuming that you are correct, we don't know if incoming new customers has made up for that loss (assuming there is a loss).

 MWHistorian wrote:
This will impact GW's financials in a negative way.

Again, we don't know that yet. We have no financial data to back that up (yet) and thus must wait 'til the next report.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Even if AOS sells more fantasy kits, I doubt it will balance out with the players they've lost and are curently pushing away.

We shall see, but it's too early (and we lack enough information) to make those calls yet.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I see them giving 40k the same treatment and this will be detrimental to their finances. At this day and age, GW can't afford to lose more players and maintain their current position.

They lost revenue in spite of more and bigger releases than before. I don't see AOS or any future release stopping this decline until they work to repair their player base...which they wont.

I don't disagree here. Measures are needed. AoS'ing 40K is not the answer.

 Talys wrote:
Feel free to have the last word, man. Your priorities and your opinions are no less important or valid as mine.

He said, trying to get the last word.

 Talys wrote:
PP does not do nearly as much to help people get into the hobby of painting and modelling miniatures -- just go on GW's site, look at the number of books and eBooks published on the subject, go to WarhammerTV and look on the number of super-high-quality videos on the subject, and compare with PP.

PP's DVD, Core Techniques (which I own and have watched), frankly, is junk. The equivalent Citadel DVD featuring Duncan Rhodes is like, 1000x better.

Golden Demon is by far the most prestigious (and recognized) miniature competition. Winning one will actually up your value as a painter (for commissions), if that's your thing. Local painting contests are generally horrible, because this is a pretty niche hobby, and the same people (and very small number of people) generally have the best models every time.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that PP doesn't do stuff for its modellers. I'm just saying GW has published, and continues to publish (both for free and as paid items) a lot more.

Talys take of those GW pink glasses for a sec. PP magazine has lots of info on conversion, painting, background, RPG campaigns, new models with rules, painting competitions, tournaments, you know the things that white dwarf used to have before it became a catalog for this weeks new releases.

Recent golden demons have been less than during GW heyday. Last Golden demon was more a sales day than a golden demon.

I wonder what your opinion on this is

off course not a good as GW but still

@Jehan-reznor - of course, this is beautiful Angel's work is awesome.

I occasionally buy No Quarter, but I find the amount of model photography in it only a tiny fraction of what's in GW publications (Visions, and 4 weeks of White Dwarf). Most of it doesn't really inspire me to go out and paint something cool.

Of course, part of the problem is just that I don't like WMH models as much as 40k models (that's just a personal preference; I'm not making a dig at PP).

Infinity models are great. But there aren't many models for any faction and there aren't vehicles and such (which I love). I also love plastic. But... what is that robot thing? It is very cool, and I have not seen it for sale before.

I do stand by what I say though. Go to youtube, hit WarhammerTV, and look at how many free videos there are of extremely high production value. Sure, they're not going to get you anything an award winning, but it's achievable by any painter with a little patience, and the results are very nice. It's also totally free.

My point really wasn't that nobody else does anything for painters but GW (the comparatives got thrown in there in the heat of the argument). What I trying to say, undiluted, was:

"GW does lots for painters & modellers and comparatively very little for competitive players."

I don't know why anyone wants to argue that point, as I think it couldn't possibly be plainer. The conclusion I draw from that is that GW *cares* about the modellers and painters a lot more than competitive players. Maybe that has something to do with profit, but I'm pretty sure it's deeper than that. It just feels like (to me) a company that is into models and collections and isn't into competitive gaming, so it sets those priorities accordingly.

Talys.

If GW truly became a miniature making and selling company and ditched their game rules completely would you still purchase?

I think you may.

What if without the game rules there was a drop in the production of fiction 'fluff'?

What if they produced some technically excellent models that had no background or reason to exist other than that it could be made?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Pretty much every tournament has a three colour minimum, including the WHW gaming tournaments, and certainly the likes of visions and GD which encourages people who like to paint to buy models to paint aren't going to hurt sales, but I still maintain they simply need to sell an idea of something to do with the models you buy, and GD etc neatly appeal to the people who don't game, but whether you do or not is totally irrelevant to their approach.

There's an old saying in sales "sell the sizzle, not the sausage" and GW selling you the idea of painting a GD winning model is exactly the same concept as selling you the idea of an all conquering army that sweeps all before it on the table while your opponent tears up at the sheer awesomeness of your painting.

This is exactly it; I start up whole armies on a regular basis based on the idea of painting them (this week I've bought 12mm Orcs, 15mm Samurai, 1/600th scale biplanes, Frostgrave), and in reality about 75% of the stuff I buy gets sold on unpainted after a few years.

Even as someone who paints more than games, I've long gone off GW, as I can get more interesting things to paint, for less. I had to restrain myself from spending $100's on reaper metals at the weekend, settling for a single barbarian.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:

"GW does lots for painters & modellers and comparatively very little for competitive players."

I'll agree on that point, GW does make a big thing about painting, but they are not the only (or even best) example of a pro-painting company. Nothing they produce for free (or for money) is any better than that available elsewhere.

It's just they really seem to dislike competitive players. Maybe they just don't buy enough, or keep moaning about vague rules.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Talys.

If GW truly became a miniature making and selling company and ditched their game rules completely would you still purchase?

I think you may.

What if without the game rules there was a drop in the production of fiction 'fluff'?

What if they produced some technically excellent models that had no background or reason to exist other than that it could be made?

If GW ceased writing the rules, I wouldn't have friends to play the game with, and my interest would most certainly wane.

I would buy some models, but an infinitely smaller number of them, because I would not be building an army anymore. For example, the reason I'm building 60 tacticals is to be able to build a full company (with squads of 10). I'm built 3 stormravens to be able to deploy angel's fury. I'm building 9 drop pods and 6 razorbacks so that I can take advantage of those formation benefits. Et cetera. The whole thing will be at about 250 models and 18 months, and then I'll move to another army and return in 10-15 years.

Then I'll leave them for another army and come back to them in 10-15 years when GW has added a whole lot more meat to the Blood Angels soup again.

GW actually does produce technically excellent models that I buy for no reason other than the models (because I totally ignore their fluff). For example, Nagash and Treeman Ancient.

Privateer Press produces many models that I like and purchase, even though I don't follow their fluff at all, and have maybe played 7 games in my life. I buy almost every infinity model my store brings in, and I don't follow that at all, nor have I convinced anyone to play with me. And I buy and paint random Reaper Bones minis just for fun, because they're cheap and some are cool.

But let's put it this way... my 40k spend is about 10 times everything else put together, because I enjoy modelling and playing 40k armies.

 Talys wrote:
.
I occasionally buy No Quarter, but I find the amount of model photography in it only a tiny fraction of what's in GW publications (Visions, and 4 weeks of White Dwarf). Most of it doesn't really inspire me to go out and paint something cool.

so what? No quarter has actual content. Guts n gears. Gavin Kyle files. New releases. Pros and cons. (As in high level players, and conventions), painting tutorials, conversion tutorials, fiction, puzzles, interesting battle reports, and a wealth of information for their rpg. It's about more than just painting toy soldiers.

Or are you saying that white dwarf is so void of content that all they can do is fill it with pictures?

Deadnight wrote:

 Talys wrote:
.
I occasionally buy No Quarter, but I find the amount of model photography in it only a tiny fraction of what's in GW publications (Visions, and 4 weeks of White Dwarf). Most of it doesn't really inspire me to go out and paint something cool.

so what? No quarter has actual content. Guts n gears. Gavin Kyle files. New releases. Pros and cons. (As in high level players, and conventions), painting tutorials, conversion tutorials, fiction, puzzles, interesting battle reports, and a wealth of information for their rpg. It's about more than just painting toy soldiers.

Or are you saying that white dwarf is so void of content that all they can do is fill it with pictures?

I'm just saying that White Dwarf contains stuff I'm interested in, in almost every issue. No Quarter contains less stuff that I'm interested in. I didn't say it was a bad magazine. Different strokes, man. Buy what you like.

But anyways, the #1 thing I'm looking for in a miniature gaming magazine is photos of nice miniatures, and the #2 thing is the context in which those models might be useful. I happen to be a person who is excited for each issue of Warhammer Visions, which effectively has nothing in it *but* photos of models.

Deadnight wrote:

 Talys wrote:
.
I occasionally buy No Quarter, but I find the amount of model photography in it only a tiny fraction of what's in GW publications (Visions, and 4 weeks of White Dwarf). Most of it doesn't really inspire me to go out and paint something cool.

so what? No quarter has actual content. Guts n gears. Gavin Kyle files. New releases. Pros and cons. (As in high level players, and conventions), painting tutorials, conversion tutorials, fiction, puzzles, interesting battle reports, and a wealth of information for their rpg. It's about more than just painting toy soldiers.

Or are you saying that white dwarf is so void of content that all they can do is fill it with pictures?

No Quarter is a great magazine, but that does not make Visions a bad magazine...
they are two different beasts, and both have their place...
personally, i buy both, as well as Ravage, and used to buy (when they were still being published) Harbinger, Game Forces, and Cry Havoc...
all of those were, and are, purchased for the pictures of painted models...
nothing wrong with a little diversity, but at the end of the day, for me, it is ALL about painting toy soldiers...
the stories, illustrations, battle reports, and background articles in the magazines are part of what inspires the desire to paint, but it's the pictures of painted models that really give the most inspiration...
while it is sad that the White Dwarf that i knew and loved since 1984 is dead and gone, i can still enjoy the beautiful eye candy of Visions...

one does not have to have a myopic view in order to be a GW fan...
it is possible to be happy with the quality of the GW art, fiction, and models even while being aware of, and buying, the products of other miniature wargames companies...
i really don't get why people seem to assume that if you are a supporter of GW, then you must be blind to all of the better things that are available in the industry...
yes, i did say better...
i would never claim that anything GW produces is the end all, be all, or the best thing produced in the industry...
i have always said, though, that it is the company who's miniatures i enjoy painting the most, with the settings that i have enjoyed, and been inspired by, the most...

as long as GW continues to produce great models, then they will continue to get my money...
that doesn't mean that i can't enjoy the products for WarmaHordes, Infinity, Freebooter's Fate, Confrontation (RIP), Helldorado, Dark-Age, or the random minis from Studio McVey, Andrea, Pegaso, Nuts Planet, Scale 75, Knight Models, or anyone else...
the more the merrier, really...
it is simply the fact that i gravitate more towards the look of GW's aesthetic combined with the 'Eavy Metal painting style (when it is at its best) that sees GW getting 75% of my hobby money, while the other's get the rest...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

No Quarter is a great magazine, but that does not make Visions a bad magazine...

No, Visions is a pretty bad magazine in it's own right. Duplicate pictures, poor framing/placement (cutting out detail in the centrefolds), essentially no actual written content. It's objectively worse than every other gaming magazine in production in every measure other than "pictures of GW mini's". It's certainly not ahead in terms of cost, reading time, tutorials, inspiration. I can't read an issue of WI or WS&S without wanting to start a new project, Visions just leaves me wondering why I bothered.

Sure, it has pretty pictures of GW mini's, but they are often rehashed and usually available on the website.

I guess someone has to like Visions though, if it's still on the go.

Deadnight wrote:

 Talys wrote:
.
I occasionally buy No Quarter, but I find the amount of model photography in it only a tiny fraction of what's in GW publications (Visions, and 4 weeks of White Dwarf). Most of it doesn't really inspire me to go out and paint something cool.

so what? No quarter has actual content. Guts n gears. Gavin Kyle files. New releases. Pros and cons. (As in high level players, and conventions), painting tutorials, conversion tutorials, fiction, puzzles, interesting battle reports, and a wealth of information for their rpg. It's about more than just painting toy soldiers.

Or are you saying that white dwarf is so void of content that all they can do is fill it with pictures?

Yeah.... gotta agree there. If you're measure of quality is 'how many pictures of painted models' that's great, but I think you're in the minority compared to people who want actual, you know, content.

*Edit*
Trying to make that sound a little better and maybe a little more relevant to the topic, sitting down and being able to read an in universe report from the Iron Kingdom's top spy on one of my favourite characters and get a wealth of fluff relating to her childhood, training, early career and a deeper look into where her loyalties really lay is amazing. It is an enthralling read. It makes it feel like a lot of effort went into making the magazine. That makes it well worth the price imo.
White Dwarf, and this may well be a symptom of being weekly, feels to me very much like the minimal amount of effort was put in to slap together some pictures of studio painted minis that I can see on GWs website, and have seen before, and a bunch of advertizing the latest thing. It makes it feel cheap, and not worth the (actually rather small) asking price.
I can find better painted minis online, with a much wider variety too, just by checking my facebook feed.

 Talys wrote:


But anyways, the #1 thing I'm looking for in a miniature gaming magazine is photos of nice miniatures, and the #2 thing is the context in which those models might be useful. I happen to be a person who is excited for each issue of Warhammer Visions, which effectively has nothing in it *but* photos of models.

Except, it's not actually a miniature gaming magazine you're looking for, then, but a miniature catalog.

Maybe the reason GW has so much stuff for painters is that they've mastered the techniques and because what works always works. With the game always changing it is necessary to constantly generate new content and ideas, and those could easily be open to ridicule since they could be shown to be wrong when analyzed. So keep showing painting techniques. That is easy safe and proven. And there they've had enough sense to refine what works instead of jumping wildly from one direction to the next.

 Azreal13 wrote:

If GW wanted to truly be a "Games Company" instead of a "Miniatures Company", all they'd have to do is put the same effort into writing a great game, that they currently put out for the painting & modelling folks.

Imagine if all the Wahammer TV videos were of strategy and gameplay. If instead of painting guides, they were tactica volumes and detailed battle reports. If instead of campaign books, they were complex scenarios. It would be a different company. One that would appeal to different people.

Again, if you take GW at their word, they want you to find your own way of playing. Painting is very much a matter of learned technique and practiced skill. Besides, I'm pretty sure I've seen writing in WD around new releases discussing how they can be incorporated into existing armies, just because there's no videos doesn't mean they don't address it.

Personally, I think it's because the game lacks any real depth and there's insufficient material to do those sorts of things without exposing that flaw.

They don't do campaign books, they do scenario compilations, Warhammer is very scenario heavy in both incarnations, but it lacks any real narrative component to call it campaign.

Truth - painting is a lot easier to teach with videos than strategy and tactics are.

When my group plays games we try to have two or three games going at the same time - because most people want to play, not watch others play. (I am an exception - but that is also why I win more often than anyone else in my group... I consider watching the others play as akin to sending scouts to gather intelligence.)

White Dwarf used to have some solid articles on tactics - right into 3rd edition WH40K.

The thing to compere is not videos of how to play an army, it is to watch Battle Reports - where the folks explain what and why they are doing what they do.

As for 'forging the narrative'....

There have been decent narrative campaigns for Fantasy - some of the old, long out of print, scenario packs were awesomely fun. (The last that I remember was the one about a Vampire Count - sadly nowhere near as memorable as Lichemaster or MacDeath.)

Allowing people to bring what they want, and field as much as they want, with no means of balancing the scenario... is not forging the narrative. It is the game devolving into a kid playing with a bag of cheap toy soldiers with another kid that has a bag of cheap plastic dinosaurs.

The Auld Grump - I really enjoyed playing US Marines vs. the Invasion of the Cheap Plastic Dinosaurs... but that does not mean that it forged a strong narrative....

*EDIT* Much snipping.... On topic, or, more accurately, stating the matter that I kind of skirted - AoS, as it is now, creates no more tactical game than two bags of cheap plastic toys - which is how I got started, if I want to be honest.... (I can even remember the rules that eight year old Grump used.... You didn't want to be a US Marine in close combat with a dino....)

What it isn't is a rewarding experience for somebody that enjoys playing out full battles....

In my view it is since GW gave up the pretence of balanced games in favour of forging a narrative (WHFB 8th, 40K 6th) that their revenues have gone into continuing decline.

To be fair I think the massive increase in price of the rules and army books was the major factor.

At lest AoS gets around that problem.

To go back to the actual financial statements, the fact is that GW's revenue declined again. However the constant currency conversion may show that unit sales declined less than previously.

If Germans spent 10 million Euros buying stuff in 2013-14, and the same in 2014-15, the revenue will have declined due to the weaker Euro to GBP conversion rate, but the 10 million Euros represents nearly the same number of boxes shifted.