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I was unsure about the rules for Rising Crescendo when using a Shadowseer with an allied unit.

The rules for Rising Crescendo is as follows:
From the start of the second turn, all units in this Formation that have the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn.

If I add a Shadowseer (they have fleet) to a unit of Eldar Banshees (who also have fleet) or Wraithblades (who don't have fleet), does the whole unit benefit from this rule?

Or the other way around, if I add an eldar independent character to a Troupe that has Rising Crescendo, does that Independent Character also get Rising Crescendo?

No to the shadowserr joining banshees(they are not a unit from this formation.

Yes to say an autarch joining a troupe(they are a unit from this formation and the ic becomes a member of the unit for all rules purposes). There is also a bit in the ic rules about how they do not gain the unit's rules, but in this case it is a formation rule that is granted to the whole unit.

I was hoping that could work for the Autarch. I would love to put him with the banshee mask in a troupe to nullify overwatch but I was not sure if it would also nullify the rising crescendo rule. Now my squishy clowns have way better odds to make it into combat a full strength.

 Acidian wrote:
I was unsure about the rules for Rising Crescendo when using a Shadowseer with an allied unit.

The rules for Rising Crescendo is as follows:
From the start of the second turn, all units in this Formation that have the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn.

If I add a Shadowseer (they have fleet) to a unit of Eldar Banshees (who also have fleet) or Wraithblades (who don't have fleet), does the whole unit benefit from this rule?

Or the other way around, if I add an eldar independent character to a Troupe that has Rising Crescendo, does that Independent Character also get Rising Crescendo?

I would challenge you to find a UNIT that has the Fleet special rule. Models have Fleet. Units don't have Fleet. Rising Crescendo is worded poorly and technically does nothing as Fleet is a model level rule and not a unit level rule. You never fulfill the requirement of having a unit with fleet.

HIWPI... Any unit entirely composed of models with the Fleet special rule should be considered a unit with the Fleet special rule for this purpose. Any ICs with Fleet attached to the unit will benefit from Rising Crescendo as they're considered part of the unit for all rules purposes, which would presumably include Formation benefits.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No to the shadowserr joining banshees(they are not a unit from this formation.

Yes to say an autarch joining a troupe(they are a unit from this formation and the ic becomes a member of the unit for all rules purposes). There is also a bit in the ic rules about how they do not gain the unit's rules, but in this case it is a formation rule that is granted to the whole unit.

You can't have it both ways.

Keep in mind, there are no rules for units within units. An IC that joins a unit becomes part of that unit for all rules purposes.

If the Shadowseer was independent of any unit of the Formation, than that would be obvious. But so long as the model has Fleet and is part of the unit in the Formation, than it can access the rules of the Formation.

Yes the shadowseer becomed part of the eldar unit, whether that eldar unit is from a warhost a CAD, or an AD, it is not a unit from the harlequen formation, and the shadowseer stops being a unit on his own so is also(albeit temporarily) not a unit from the harlequen formation.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes the shadowseer becomed part of the eldar unit, whether that eldar unit is from a warhost a CAD, or an AD, it is not a unit from the harlequen formation, and the shadowseer stops being a unit on his own so is also(albeit temporarily) not a unit from the harlequen formation.

But he is PART of a unit from the Formation and so would benefit from any rules assigned to the unit. He would obviously not benefit from any rules assigned to MODELS from the unit.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes the shadowseer becomed part of the eldar unit, whether that eldar unit is from a warhost a CAD, or an AD, it is not a unit from the harlequen formation, and the shadowseer stops being a unit on his own so is also(albeit temporarily) not a unit from the harlequen formation.

But he is PART of a unit from the Formation and so would benefit from any rules assigned to the unit. He would obviously not benefit from any rules assigned to MODELS from the unit.

Precisely this.

He is either part of the unit or not, no partials.

Did either of you read the scenario?

It is a Shadowseer, a harlequen IC that is part of the formation that grants rising crescendo.

He is joined to a unit of Banshees, a craftworld eldar unit that is not part of the Harlequen formation that grants rising crescendo.

While the shadowseer is joined he is not a unit himself and becomes part of the Eldar Craftword unit.

That unit is in no part a unit from thr Harlequen formation.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Did either of you read the scenario?

Read the scenario. Did not properly understand the relationships. I'm not very familiar with the new Craftworlds or Harlequin codex..

For some reason, I thought the Shadowseer was not part of the Formation and the Banshees were part of the Formation. That's how it was coming across.

Too much dang new stuff and I don't have time to get all caught up.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Did either of you read the scenario?

It is a Shadowseer, a harlequen IC that is part of the formation that grants rising crescendo.

He is joined to a unit of Banshees, a craftworld eldar unit that is not part of the Harlequen formation that grants rising crescendo.

While the shadowseer is joined he is not a unit himself and becomes part of the Eldar Craftword unit.

That unit is in no part a unit from thr Harlequen formation.

Yeah, I totally misunderstood. I thought the question was whether or not a non-Formation IC joined to a Formation Unit would benefit from special rules granted to the Unit as a whole. The answer to that is yes.

If this is a situation where an IC comes from a Formation that grants special abilities to UNITS, and he/she joins a non-Formation Unit... then the special abilities do NOT transfer to the unit he's joined.

Sorry if that came off harsh.

The question was on both: a formation ic joining a non-formation unit, and a non-formation ic joining a formation unit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Sorry if that came off harsh.

The question was on both: a formation ic joining a non-formation unit, and a non-formation ic joining a formation unit.

No, no. It was a fair question. I clearly didn't read it well enough. While I do think the IC rules are clearly written, I don't think they're always intuitive. This will continue to cause confusion until they're rewritten to be more clear.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Sorry if that came off harsh.

The question was on both: a formation ic joining a non-formation unit, and a non-formation ic joining a formation unit.

No, no. It was a fair question. I clearly didn't read it well enough. While I do think the IC rules are clearly written, I don't think they're always intuitive. This will continue to cause confusion until they're rewritten to be more clear.

I dont think the IC rules are written that poorly. The bigger culprit is how formation/detachment rules are worded. In the rulebook the way special rules interact between IC and unit it joins are very well defined, and this is kept up with each SR and how they state whether it affects only the models with the SR, or in some cases uses very clear wording that if one model in the unit has it they all benefit.

if the special rules for formations/detachments used this same language, it would be more clear. They do a fine job of pointing out when each model needs the SR, but fail to state when only one model in the unit needs the special rule for the unit to have it. for example "If an unit from this formation contains at least one model with this special rule it may force you to buy it beer on the roll of a 2+, if you have not had a beer you may reroll this roll" instead we have two models that are separate units at one point, and in separate detachments and most likely separate factions that can join into one unit and have "units from this formation can buy beer" Yes an IC counts as a member for all rules purposes (assuming which detachment you are bought from and faction aren't rules purposes...but thats a different discussion) so it counts as a member of the unit, but it is not written as clearly as the special rules in the rulebook.

tldr- formation special rules do not follow the same word pattern for what effects an unit if one model in unit has it, versus what rules require every model in the unit to have it that the rulebook uses.

While I agree that the rules may not intend to have non-formation ics gain formation unit benefits; the check listed on most is that all members of the unit have a given other special rule(in this case fleet); so that is why it works with any bb ic that also has that special rule.

Then we have issues of timing from formation(or detachment) benefits. In a CAD(or AD), you have the objective secured rule granting troops units from that detachment exclusive scoring rights, add an hq ic to that unit and they retain those rights even if only the ic is within claiming distance of the objective. The same thing happens when you add an ic(troops or otherwise) from a different detachment. But then the aspect host benefit gets called into question; does an ic that joins the aspect unit gain their +1 to ws/bs? In this case i'd say no because of when you decide which stat to boost(pre-deployment), followed by the effect adding to the profile.

Then you sometimes get other situations where it is even more specific; one of the previewed ultramarines formations specifically calls out ct:um, so the only ic that could gain the benefit is a um ic.

Alright, thanks for the clarification.