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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Hello

Ive been using my FW hornets for awhile now at my local club and recently played a game with one of my club mates who disagreed with the use of forgeworld models and i was wondering if anybody could point me in the direction of the correct ruling on thier legality


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im at work and on phone so cant find myself till later on tonite

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/09 04:09:32


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

No, total nonsense, it's polite to let him look at the rules and familiarise himself with the rules and you should always do so, but they are official, most recently there is a gw formation that uses khorne bezerkers and a kahrybis assault pod, a forge world unit, official gw publication, but as I said before, let your opponent know what everything is, same with any codex stuff.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon






Page 7 of Imperial Armour Apocalypse says 'it is best to make sure your opponent is happy to play a game with Forge World models before you start.' But it also says that they are allowed in regular games of 40k. 'Using this book' section. I'm sure there's equivalents in all the books. But, 'it is best' does not equal 'opponent must give permission'.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




K thx guys
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






And note that even the main rulebook says that you need to agree with your opponent(s) about everything: how to build your armies, whether or not to use a point limit, etc. So saying "you need permission to use your FW units" is a pretty meaningless statement when you also need permission to use your tactical squads or to build a 1500 point army.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Ultimately, you need your opponent's ok to play any pick-up game.

There's not really any reason to not allow Forgeworld these days, although a lot of players will not be keen on the idea due to not being familiar with it, or the long-standing perception that Forgeworld stuff is all over-powered.

 
   
Made in ca
Furious Fire Dragon





If this isnt in a tournament, you're being TFG.
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





 cosmicsoybean wrote:
If this isnt in a tournament, you're being TFG.


Because Death Korps of Krieg are seriously OP compared to some of the regular 40k stuff....

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
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Made in kz
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot




Kazakhstan

FW staff is resonably priced most of the time, you allways pay in points for wht you get out of them, In my club we allow any FW unit even Super Heavies.

Dark Angels ~ 7350pts (about 5800 painted);
Ultramarines ~ 4700pts (about 2700 painted);
Imperial Knights ~ 1300pts (about 800 painted);
Skitarii and Mechanicum ~ 2000pts (about 1800 painted);
Assassins ~ 850pts;
Tyranids ~ 2000pts 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Well,
FW models ARE GW models (as FW is a type of department to GW, not a seperate company not a subsidie)
You could argue that your FW models are more legal than his old metal models (if he has any)
Saying no to FW models is like saying no to a Tactical squad
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Next time he says no Forgeworld tell him you wont play something he has in his army then or just refuse to play him, hate people like that especially since FW is legal.

19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

The only area that can be an issue I think is the Expermental rules stuff - I think its best to discuss the use of those units.

Otherwise its just another unit - pretty much everywhere - especially tournaments- House rule something or lots of things so best to find out the local situtation.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps






Grrr, this boils my piss. I reckon he's just having a grumble about something and has singled out Forgeworld as it is, in his mind, an easy target. To be honest, if he's giving you hassle about running a few hornets, he's probably not worth playing.

Page 116 and 117 of the 40k "The Rules" has everything you need in terms of legality:

"The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop Publications"

and

"Regardless of where the information is found, it is known as an army list entry"

Finally

"Players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use"

Sounds pretty clear to me - both players have to agree on what they intend to use and if any objections arise. He's in his right to object to you using hornets. Consequently, you have every right to reject use of a random unit out of his army selection. Forgeworld is just a brand name for resin produced miniatures and Imperial Armour unit entries and army lists produced by Games Workshop.
   
Made in no
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






My local GW doesn't allow FW, which does my nut in. Their argument being "not everyone has the FW books."

Most people are okay with FW, but people unfamiliar with it may be skeptical. My advice is ask before you make the list

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/09 09:01:02


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

Given the expectation of using assorted superheavies and the addition of forgeworld units to GW produced formations it seems that GW has an expectation that forgeworld is just another part of the game. Albeit one that is generally more competently balanced.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 ChazSexington wrote:
My local GW doesn't allow FW, which does my nut in. Their argument being "not everyone has the FW books."

Most people are okay with FW, but people unfamiliar with it may be skeptical. My advice is ask before you make the list

I don't have the Eldar codex. Does that mean you can't play Eldar against me?
If they have the rules for all their units with them, there should be no issue.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




UK

 zedmeister wrote:
Grrr, this boils my piss. I reckon he's just having a grumble about something and has singled out Forgeworld as it is, in his mind, an easy target. To be honest, if he's giving you hassle about running a few hornets, he's probably not worth playing.

Page 116 and 117 of the 40k "The Rules" has everything you need in terms of legality:

"The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop Publications"

and

"Regardless of where the information is found, it is known as an army list entry"

Finally

"Players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use"

Sounds pretty clear to me - both players have to agree on what they intend to use and if any objections arise. He's in his right to object to you using hornets. Consequently, you have every right to reject use of a random unit out of his army selection. Forgeworld is just a brand name for resin produced miniatures and Imperial Armour unit entries and army lists produced by Games Workshop.


Exalted for truth.

FW have even dropped the '40k approved' badge now because it's all considered part of the same game and system. Use whatever the hell you want man. They are your models, show him the rules and if he has a problem then it's his problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/09 09:08:18


40K: 2000 | 1500 | 2000 | 1850 | WFB: RiP | Infinity: Myrmidons | Malifaux: Guild/Neverborn 
   
Made in no
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
My local GW doesn't allow FW, which does my nut in. Their argument being "not everyone has the FW books."

Most people are okay with FW, but people unfamiliar with it may be skeptical. My advice is ask before you make the list

I don't have the Eldar codex. Does that mean you can't play Eldar against me?
If they have the rules for all their units with them, there should be no issue.


That's what my brain was screaming when they told me, but I decided to be diplomatic and drop the issue. It is their store, and if they refuse to let their subsidiaries' miniatures be used, well, then that's their loss, 'cause I've moved to the LFGS. However, it was different when I played in Glasgow - they even had some FW stuff in store!
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Its entirely down to the managers' discretion. My local GW is frustrating to the point where if the manager likes you, you can use as much Forge World as you like, but if one of his inner circle say you're lame, he'll ban you from anything you haven't bought directly from him.

Because I'm a girl, he likes me even though most of his clique hate me for being better at the game than them.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
My local GW doesn't allow FW, which does my nut in. Their argument being "not everyone has the FW books."

Most people are okay with FW, but people unfamiliar with it may be skeptical. My advice is ask before you make the list

I don't have the Eldar codex. Does that mean you can't play Eldar against me? .

Not being familiar with Eldar rules is a perfectly valid reason for choosing to not play against an Eldar player, yes.


Ultimately, we're talking about a game here. Getting worked up because someone is refusing to play against the miniatures you want to use is no less unreasonable than someone refusing to play you because of a mistaken impression of the effectiveness of the units you want to use.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

stopcallingmechief wrote:
Hello

Ive been using my FW hornets for awhile now at my local club and recently played a game with one of my club mates who disagreed with the use of forgeworld models and i was wondering if anybody could point me in the direction of the correct ruling on thier legality


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im at work and on phone so cant find myself till later on tonite


No such ruling is needed. You either agree to play or you don't.

This applies to your opinion on playing against FW, Come the Apocalypse allies, Super Heavies, Gargantuan Creatures, unpainted hordes, Eldar, Pink Horrors, and Purple mushrooms.

Just say "no" politely if that's your choice and shake the other guy's hand anyway.

If the store doesn't allow what you like in pick up games or other non-tournament situations, I'd tell them to suck a duck. Politely of course.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/09 12:58:50


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Indianapolis, IN

We actually have it as a club rule that FW is allowed and that players using FW must produce the rules if a question comes up. We've had a couple problems where players will not play anyone that uses FW. Might be our local meta but almost everyone uses some form of FW.

Now the legality, you are perfectly fine to use your FW stuff as long as you build your list right. Now if you want to use some of the experimental stuff, you should ask your opponent first. Also, be up front with the rules that your units have. I'm pretty familiar with most of the codex, but I still expect my opponents to know their army just as much as I know mine. This way if I have a question I can ask and I don't get some off the wall answer.

Armies:
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Salamanders: 5,000 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-2
Ultramarines: 4,000
Armored Battle Company (DKoK): 4000
Elysians: 500
Khorne Daemons: 2500
 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 gmaleron wrote:
Next time he says no Forgeworld tell him you wont play something he has in his army then or just refuse to play him, hate people like that especially since FW is legal.


Behaving like 7 year olds - The Game

Your opponent was within his rights. He is allowed to refuse to play vs. Forgeworld Models - just as he could refuse the game for any other reason. FW still has a bad reputation among older players due to its darker days of throwing overpowered stuff at IG people, but its reputation has improved ever since and rightfully so. If you're playing 7th, there's no balance anymore to begin with, so there's no reason to refuse playing against FW.

   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz





St Louis

as an older player, anyone who refuses to play against any legit model, especially expensive FW models, is a jerk. just pack and walk away and find someone who actually enjoys their hobby.

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Made in gb
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






To be honest I'd probably decline playing against Forgeworld, but then I'd also decline playing against anything in any thing that isn't in a normal codex/codex supplement, and super heavies/gargantuan creature. There's more than enough stuff in the normal books to try and remember, throwing stuff in that is outside of them just adds on more stuff to try and remember, which is more effort than I'm willing to put into the game.

As a side note I'm also declining any game above 1000pts right now, mainly because anything larger, right now, is sucking a lot of the fun out of the game. I find smaller games prevent a lot of the broken lists being played, which means fluffy/thematic lists are actually useable
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






Personally I have qualms with anyone fielding any unit that does not have an entry in that faction's parent codex or supplement.

I think there is a reason why certain Forgeworld units don't make it into the main codex.

Notice how 4 out of 5 players using forgeworld units to bolster their army go after the competitive ones and not the ones that just "are interesting". E.g. taking Earthshaker platforms instead of Basilisks, or more powerful Land Raider / Predator variants, or the Sicaran.

What irks me most is when certain dudes (looking at you, CSM players) bring Heresy era stuff into games of 40k because they're good units.

A rare few FW units did make the transition into the mainstream codex, e.g. the Tau Piranha.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/09 14:37:14


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 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Sir Arun wrote:
Personally I have qualms with anyone fielding any unit that does not have an entry in that faction's parent codex or supplement.

I think there is a reason why certain Forgeworld units don't make it into the main codex.

Notice how 4 out of 5 players using forgeworld units to bolster their army go after the competitive ones and not the ones that just "are interesting".

What irks me most is when certain dudes (looking at you, CSM players) bring Heresy era stuff into games of 40k because they're good units.

A rare few FW units did make the transition into the mainstream codex, e.g. the Tau Piranha.

I don't think GW is smart enough to have reasons to do anything given that I'd rate a lobotomized Chimpanzee as being more intelligent than the likes of Johnson or Cruddace,

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






 cosmicsoybean wrote:
If this isnt in a tournament, you're being TFG.


Actually in this case it's either the other person or more likely neither of them. People are far too quick to throw around TFG.

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 n0t_u wrote:
 cosmicsoybean wrote:
If this isnt in a tournament, you're being TFG.


Actually in this case it's either the other person or more likely neither of them. People are far too quick to throw around TFG.


totally agree. how am i TFG when im fielding legal models. Sounds like that guy is an older player much like the player im debating this wit in my club. I dont want to force a bad experience down anybodys throat, in this case in a league game which has no restrictions, it should be expected to possibly face FW and if you refuse, thats a forfeit. There are models in basically every single army i play that i hate (flyrant spam, anything to do with decurion), and if i refused to play them (which is his option with the FW) , i wouldnt find myself having very many games.
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

TFG is that guy who brings nasty stuff, and then is a complete douche when they win.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
 
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