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Veterans with Power Lances and Cavalry for 30 pts?

Isn't that less playable than what we have today?

Heck, compare with overcosted CSM Warp Talons

Horses as an upgrade...
It'll be their version of bikes.

A horse is worth maybe +3 pts to a WS3 S3 T3 A1 model. With a Power Lance, maybe 15 pts total.

Not 30.

Never disputed that - just thinking out loud. Most armies get some form of biker variant, the IG get sod all there.

It is time for the infantry blob to go away, except perhaps as one of those formations with a big tax.

I would like to see HWS at least get a point reduction, or be able to have a vet upgrade. There are some similarities with terminators here though, so they might not be fixable.

I would really like to see some type of observer mechanic for artillery. Such that the shots are aimed and use BS of some infiltrator or scouting unit. Oh right yeah, the elites slot.

I think we just need to consider going back to hardened vets with a choice of special rule; infiltrate, tankhunter, monsterhunter?

I think they have most of the orders right, but the precise shot one could be improved maybe on 5+ with the order?

Yes some type of regimental docterines would be nice, but honestly I would rather just get a minidex for shirtlish joes and taliban. Maybe Vostroyans also, with a plastic range while wishlisting.
They could just do a dataslate with the other regiments getting their own warlord traits and orders.

Maybe it has been said, but I really miss Schaeffer's last chancers.

Almost forgot the most important thing, Commissars. I think preferred enemy makes sense and provides them with a role that differs from other available characters (inquisitors).

Elites:

Spotters [60 pts]

*Guardsman Statline*

Unit size: 6

Special Rules:
Spotters (During the movement phase, nominate one enemy unit within Line of Sight. Any Ordnance weapons fired at that unit do not roll for scatter)

Wargear:
Lasgun
Flak Armour
*Steel Balls*

 Selym wrote:
Elites:

Spotters [60 pts]

*Guardsman Statline*

Unit size: 6

Special Rules:
Spotters (During the movement phase, nominate one enemy unit within Line of Sight. Any Ordnance weapons fired at that unit do not roll for scatter)

*Steel Balls*

I love it, but can I get infiltrate, for lets say half the boots and same points?

Probably

 Kanluwen wrote:
Hotshot Lasgun--deleted.
Replaced with "Hellguns"

Fire modes:
"Stable"--30" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire
"Overcharged"--15" S6 AP3 Assault 3

Special Rules: Capacitor--A model with a Hellgun requires a specialized powerplant strapped to their back. This powerplant contains the coolant and stabilization systems for the Hellgun's enhanced plant.

Hellguns can be fired in two modes. When fired in the "Overcharged" mode, roll a D6 for each model in the squad as though they were firing a weapon with the "Gets Hot" rule.
On a roll of a 1, that model's shots have the Instant Death rule.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but that's as broken as hell - especially when combined with orders.
I'd just give them rending and blind.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".

Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.

Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.

That's just my personal fantasy however.

Nah, I like them as a shooty unit. Let them staty AP 3, give them pistol + CCW back, and +1 WS so they can still do it in extremis - but don't make them as melee focused as that! Make them 10 ppm too - then they'll be worth taking except as an easy way to get 4 meltas and a Valk on the table.

The problem is that, without massive changes to the strength, rate of fire and range, they can't make effective use of that AP3, and against units where the AP3 doesn't do anything (e.g. 2+sv units, units in cover, or lighter units with crap armor), they still lack the raw volume of fire to really do anything. Same problem Thousand Sons and Vespids have had.

If we want to make them S4 Assault X 18" guns, then AP3 might be useful, but ultimately they're also really not supposed to be "power armor" hunters either, they're commando assault units, and they should have weapons and rules that reflect that. AP3 is just a crutch to try and make them interesting, but doesn't really reflect what they should be about.

 Selym wrote:
Elites:

Spotters [60 pts]

*Guardsman Statline*

Unit size: 6

Special Rules:
Spotters (During the movement phase, nominate one enemy unit within Line of Sight. Any Ordnance weapons fired at that unit do not roll for scatter)

Wargear:
Lasgun
Flak Armour
*Steel Balls*

I've wanted something like this for a long time.

Here's a home-brew unit I made regarding a spotter.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Veterans with Power Lances and Cavalry for 30 pts?

Isn't that less playable than what we have today?

Heck, compare with overcosted CSM Warp Talons

Erm... do note that I said Hunting lances. That's quite different from a Power lance.

JohnHwangDD wrote:A horse is worth maybe +3 pts to a WS3 S3 T3 A1 model. With a Power Lance, maybe 15 pts total.

Not 30.

It's a doctrine. Meaning, that's 30 points total for 10 Veterans; not ppm.

Thanks for clarifying on Rough Riders as +30 pts to make them mounted units. I'm of a mind that basic Power Lances are a superior choice, because they follow the basic rules without exception.

Only Conscripts should "blob", when bought as such from 10-50 models. BS2, any combination of LP&CCW or lasguns, option to take flamer or demo charge per 5. Regular squads should follow the squad - platoon - company formation.

And Storms have been terrible ever since GW decreed their guns were AP3 vs higher S. All of the Stormie problems disappear if their guns are S4 AP- Rapid Fire with alt profile S6 AP3 Assault 1 Gets Hot! At low power, they're OK, and a bit better all around. But turn the power up, and they're a threat to anything on the board with a balanced risk reward. The big problem is that GW doubled down with a separate Storm book. At this rate, the best "fix" is to remove Storms entirely, in favor of Veterans doctrines.

Going forward, mounted (RR) / light infantry (Tallarn, Tanith) / jungle fighter (Catachan) / heavy infantry (Kasrkin) can be added, more thematic. And platoon becomes a formation of 3+ Infantry / Veteran Squads with the Command Squad losing models for "free" Junior Officer and Vox Caster upgrades.

 ultimentra wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Hotshot Lasgun--deleted.
Replaced with "Hellguns"

Fire modes:
"Stable"--30" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire
"Overcharged"--15" S6 AP3 Assault 3

Special Rules: Capacitor--A model with a Hellgun requires a specialized powerplant strapped to their back. This powerplant contains the coolant and stabilization systems for the Hellgun's enhanced plant.

Hellguns can be fired in two modes. When fired in the "Overcharged" mode, roll a D6 for each model in the squad as though they were firing a weapon with the "Gets Hot" rule.
On a roll of a 1, that model's shots have the Instant Death rule.

Not only is this unrealistic wishlisting, but the Instant death rule is OP. We will not be getting S4 on Hot shots, nor alternate fire modes. It's just not something I could ever see GW giving the Guard, even for Stormtroopers. We'll be lucky if Stormtroopers get buffed at all, they were bad last edition and they are bad now. What they really need is a point cost reduction.

Instant Death when your model just potentially blew itself up after firing is far from OP...

In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?

And while yeah, "AP3 pigeonholes them into Marine hunters"--3+ saves are not exactly rare anymore. Crisis Suits, some Aspects, some Necron units, etc.
AP3 shouldn't be as rare as it is in the Guard list. Either bump Autocannons up to S7 AP3 or make Stormtroopers more reliable for dealing with those units.

 Kanluwen wrote:

In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?

SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.

Trust me. I've seen it happen.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?

SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.

Trust me. I've seen it happen.

Wow, I like my local SM players in comparison - they either pity me if I'm using my original list and are irritated if I'm bringing my basilisk.

Ultimately there should be no perfect or excellent armies - every army should have weaknesses and strengths, same with units - right now it feels like what sells gets better and better and what doesn't sell good is ignored - in ten years it'll be Codex: Tau, Codex: Eldar and Codex: "Casual Armies"

But first what the Guard needs is points reductions for most of the ground vehicles and all the elites choices - the roughriders doctrine idea is very good, and would allow some fun wargear selections and fluffy creations. Overall its a good codex, we have to share the universe with really good armies.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?

SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.

Trust me. I've seen it happen.

Replace "SM players" with "players in general".

Heh

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?

SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.

Trust me. I've seen it happen.

One of my regular opponents is an SM player. He regularly whines about how my AP3 and AV 14/13/10 tanks are OP. This is the same player whom spams Demi Company transports and Librarian Conclaves and brings Primarchs to games all the bloody time.
Oh, and command tanks are OP too apparently. And Veterans with Camouflage gear because 4+/3+ cover saves are broken. But Ignores cover AP5 Specialist munitions and Legion of the Damned spam are fine.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?

SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.

Trust me. I've seen it happen.

One of my regular opponents is an SM player. He regularly whines about how my AP3 and AV 14/13/10 tanks are OP. This is the same player whom spams Demi Company transports and Librarian Conclaves and brings Primarchs to games all the bloody time.
Oh, and command tanks are OP too apparently. And Veterans with Camouflage gear because 4+/3+ cover saves are broken. But Ignores cover AP5 Specialist munitions and Legion of the Damned spam are fine.

Ikr?

There's one SM player who I have never once beaten in the TT (he's pretty damn good at tactics - uses a 5E parking lot), who will happily send several hours bitching that an army other than Ultramarines got a shiny new toy, and then proceed to win flawlessly.
And then complain that one of the opponent's wargear choices shouldn't be allowed because "how can X kill a space marine, it makes no sense". X being any of the following: Ork Boy, Grot, Imperial Guardsman (of any stripe), Eldar Guardian, Tau Infantry.
And doesn't understand how an IG sergeant with power weapon can kill a Sternguard sergeant in melee.

 master of ordinance wrote:

One of my regular opponents is an SM player. He regularly whines about how my AP3 and AV 14/13/10 tanks are OP. This is the same player whom spams Demi Company transports and Librarian Conclaves and brings Primarchs to games all the bloody time.
Oh, and command tanks are OP too apparently. And Veterans with Camouflage gear because 4+/3+ cover saves are broken. But Ignores cover AP5 Specialist munitions and Legion of the Damned spam are fine.

My SM opponents think Leman Russ tanks are undercosted, but other than that they're pretty sympathetic towards the current state of IG - and our infantry in particular.

One of them was genuinely surprised when I told him that a guardsman costs 5pts (I believe he thought they'd be 3-4pts).

Yeah, 4 ppm for IG and 2ppm for conscripts would be about right.

105 points for a minimum platoon wouldn't be too bad.

 vipoid wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

One of my regular opponents is an SM player. He regularly whines about how my AP3 and AV 14/13/10 tanks are OP. This is the same player whom spams Demi Company transports and Librarian Conclaves and brings Primarchs to games all the bloody time.
Oh, and command tanks are OP too apparently. And Veterans with Camouflage gear because 4+/3+ cover saves are broken. But Ignores cover AP5 Specialist munitions and Legion of the Damned spam are fine.

My SM opponents think Leman Russ tanks are undercosted, but other than that they're pretty sympathetic towards the current state of IG - and our infantry in particular.

One of them was genuinely surprised when I told him that a guardsman costs 5pts (I believe he thought they'd be 3-4pts).

Yup...

The reason I tried to make that distinction is it's not symptomatic of Space Marine players alone.
It's something that can happen to the best of us players at the worst of times or the worst of us players at the best of times. So let's not just turn this into a thread bashing SM players because you know one who complains, and just instead focus on AM.

In that case, WISHLISTING TIME!

Everyone, quickly invent a new unit you wanna see, be it lulzy or srs biznis.

HQ:

Master of Ordnance

*Current MOO statline and wargear*

Has this shooting attack:

Rearfield Battery:
Range: Infinite // Str 9 // Ap 3 // Ordnance 3, 7" Blast, I cannae see, Sir!

I cannae see Sir!: This shot must scatter 4D6, and the firer's BS is not subtracted. The shot scatters 1D6 if a Spotter unit marks a target for it.

do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.

*A roll of "Hit" on the scatter dice must be re-rolled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:
do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.

Yes, and both.

This is about bringing the IG back in line with the other codexes, plus some rampant wishlisting.

 Brennonjw wrote:
do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.

They do and they don't.

Like any pre-Decurion book, it suffers from an issue of "Too many things that you can take and too few slots". They also suffer from being a primarily Robin Cruddace designed book and his "It's been in books before, so I'm not going to drastically revamp it" approach.

Add to it as well the necessity of outfitting Sergeants for CC(why can't I keep a Lasgun on my Sergeant?), and if you want to give them anything you're paying Space Marine prices and it leads to a very confusing book.

 Brennonjw wrote:
do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.

Well, if we where playing 5th edition then the book would be fine. However with the recent power explosion and the sudden introduction of Hull Points (GRRR) the IG codex has gone from weakness to weakness to the point that armies such as Orks and Chaos Marines can literally walk over us.
Most of the units are over priced for what they do and some of them (Rough Riders, Storm Troopers, etc) have been in dire need of a fix for several editions.

 Brennonjw wrote:
do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.

"Solid" is very much debatable. A lot of units are just abysmal, and nothing in the book can be described as 'top tier'.

The thing is, it wasn't a strong book when it came out - it suffered a number of unnecessary nerfs since 5th, but nothing was done to help the units that had been worthless for years.

Moreover, it's suffering from a similar problem as DE - in that its remained virtually unchanged, whilst the game advanced around it. We're in an edition were armies can have multiple-shot haywire guns on basic troops, and when races can casually spam D-weapons. There are gargantuan creatures and super heavies in normal games, and armies can be made up entirely of such.

Basically, most of our stuff has been rendered obsolete. Lasguns can't even touch a lot of armies these days, let alone pose any kind of threat to them. AV14 doesn't matter when everyone and their dog has Grav, Haywire, D-weapons etc. Meanwhile, our own weapons haven't kept pace with enemy defences - with MCs (and now gargantuan creatures) posing a particular problem, since our blasts are terrible against them. And, we'rein a similar situation against a lot of vehicles.

Really, our only gimmick is the ability to spam stuff. But, that's simply not an advantage anymore. Not when formations allow other armies to spam more effective units, and get additional bonuses for doing so.

To put it bluntly, there's very little we can do that other races can't do better.

Back in 2nd edition (I know, it's not relevant) Leman Russes were Troops.

Bring that back and give them Objective Secured.