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But a forge world book IS an actual unit entry. You're creating a distinction where none exists.

And yes, yes it is. Its horrendous. No upgrade should require more explaining than a whole special rule!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But a forge world book IS an actual unit entry. You're creating a distinction where none exists.

And yes, yes it is. Its horrendous. No upgrade should require more explaining than a whole special rule!

Yeah, it is. And so is White Dwarf rules. It's still much nicer to have it in the codex.

I don't understand why the different load-outs on Land Raiders make them different entries in the codex, but Valkyrie/Vendetta is one entry. Make it two and the problem with the wording would be null and void.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But a forge world book IS an actual unit entry. You're creating a distinction where none exists.

And yes, yes it is. Its horrendous. No upgrade should require more explaining than a whole special rule!

Exalted.

Kanluwen wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ustis wrote:

bob82ca wrote:
- and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.

You're right and I too have been puzzled by rough riders stat-line a few times. Toughness 4 for definite.
Also, hammer of wrath. It is insane that they do not have hammer of wrath at strength 4, possibly 5. A massed calvary charge's impact is literally the embodiment and inspiration of the idea of hammer of wrath. Horses can weigh up between 1500-2000 pounds. Have games workshop ever seen the Return Of The King when the Rohan horses completely obliterate the orc army upon impact? I'm pretty sure a space marine would be smashed into the air by a 1500 pound horse

Pretty sure they have--considering several of their sculptors and writers were extras in RoTK during that scene.

Really? Then the lack of hammer of wrath is even more disappointing.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But a forge world book IS an actual unit entry. You're creating a distinction where none exists.

The "distinction" is that Forge World rules are not readily available beyond their webstore or downloaded scans.
If FW books were available from every GW shop or through their own webstore(again, which would be so nice), there would be no real cause for "a distinction". But as it stands there are still people who won't let FW items be played because "the rules aren't in the main books or sold through GW themselves".

And yes, yes it is. Its horrendous. No upgrade should require more explaining than a whole special rule!

Yeah, okay. That wording was "horrendous" guy.

 Ustis wrote:

Really? Then the lack of hammer of wrath is even more disappointing.

Honestly I think it comes down to them not knowing where to go with "massed cavalry charges" in the basic Guard book.

With Krieg it works, but with Cadians or Catachans or Vostroyans it just doesn't really "fit".

That "distinction" is a load of gak.

If you can afford to play 40k, you can afford to mail order forge world.

The biggest problem is the internal balance in AM, particularly our weak elites and fast attack. Here are my modest buffs and nerfs to improve internal balance.

HQ
- Bump priests to 35 points
- Enginseers can repair vehicles within 6", not base to base contact
- Lord Commissar drops to 50 points
- Commissars are 0-5, not 1 per PCS/CCS. It's For Your Own Good resolves before the perils of the warp (you lose the model but it doesn't harm the unit)
- Primaris Psykers gain access to wargear
- CCS, all models gain Look Out Argh'!

Troops
- HWS drop to 30 points and may purchase a vox, camo, snare mines
- Missile launchers come with flakk missiles
- SWS may take dedicated transports
- PCS gain the combined squads special rule (may join your blob squads)
- Conscripts may be purchased as troops choices independent of platoons
- Chimeras lose lasgun arrays
- Taurox gets a better model
- Veterans bump to 65 points

Elites
- Wyrdvanes, when manifesting powers you may change one failed warp charge roll to a '6' so they're more reliably casting, but also suffering way more perils of the warp
- Scion Tempestors gain voice of command
- Ogryns of every type drop 5 points
- Ratling sniper rifles have Ap 5 default

Fast Attack:
- Cavalry grant +1 Toughness, rough riders gain WS4
- Valkyrie may purchase hellfury missiles or missile pods
- Vendetta drops to 150 points
- Hunterkiller and hellstrike missiles gain armorbane, lose ordnance
- Scout Sentinels increase cost by 5 points, gain camo netting
- Hellhound variants drop cost by 10 points

Heavy Support
- Change Wyvern to two large blasts (remove twin linked, remove shred)
- Increase range of demolisher cannon to 30"
- All Leman Russ variants gain 11 rear AV
- Basilisk reduces cover saves by 1
- Deathstrike gains Strength D

Why do you want chimeras to lose lasgun arrays?
I seriously doubt they would bring out a new model, and the arrays have always been in the novels/fluff.

 Ustis wrote:
Why do you want chimeras to lose lasgun arrays?
I seriously doubt they would bring out a new model, and the arrays have always been in the novels/fluff.

Because they're a marginal weapon that adds almost nothing to the chimera's firepower. It's just extra, pointless rules that I always have to explain to my opponents: "yeah they fire at full BS, even though I moved 12" but they're at BS3 not BS4 like the veterans inside. Yeah I already fired two weapons from the hatch, these are extra, and can fire at other people. But they can't overwatch. Now that I've explained that...they're shooting at your Space Marines...ok they did no damage, nevermind."

 TheSilo wrote:

 Ustis wrote:
Why do you want chimeras to lose lasgun arrays?
I seriously doubt they would bring out a new model, and the arrays have always been in the novels/fluff.

Because they're a marginal weapon that adds almost nothing to the chimera's firepower. It's just extra, pointless rules that I always have to explain to my opponents: "yeah they fire at full BS, even though I moved 12" but they're at BS3 not BS4 like the veterans inside. Yeah I already fired two weapons from the hatch, these are extra, and can fire at other people. But they can't overwatch. Now that I've explained that...they're shooting at your Space Marines...ok they did no damage, nevermind."

Okay that's understandable, though you could simply elect not to use them unless of course you are hoping that the removal of them in a new codex would lower the chimeras base cost.
The humble lasgun is not to be underestimated though, those lasgun arrays could come in handy if you've fired everything else and two cultists are still surviving on that four point objective, as a guard player I know the struggle of trying to scrape together shots from somewhere to kill that surprisingly resilient unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Because Airborne Guard regiments are RARE. It's why Airborne specialists like the Elysians and Harakoni are considered "rare", as the vehicles necessary for them to ply their trade are primarily attached to the Imperial Navy or Stormtroopers.

Well in a Universe with millions of Imperial Guard Regiments im pretty sure there are at least a few Hundred Thousand Airborne Regiments, by no means should you not be able to play one in a game of 40k.

 TheSilo wrote:
The biggest problem is the internal balance in AM, particularly our weak elites and fast attack. Here are my modest buffs and nerfs to improve internal balance.

- Taurox gets a better model

This wont happen, GW has spent the money to create this Vehicle and they are not going to change it anytime soon. If you hate it that much your better off converting it because it aint going nowhere soon.

 Blacksails wrote:
Un-cut all the units from the last book that were cut.

Shift some prices around on transports and hellhound variants.

Lumbering behemoth returns in some shape for russes.

For the love all that is alcoholic, give rough riders something.

AP3 on stormies does not justify their space marine level cost.

Special weapon and heavy weapon squads need access to the same wargear infantry squads do, including transports.

I'm sure many people here will want one or both of two things. The first is one of those super formation/decurion/warhost shenanigan. The second are regimental traits or doctrines. I'm not fundamentally opposed to those things, and I wouldn't be upset if they were included, but I don't feel they're necessary to fix the book.

That said, I'm 99.76482% positive the Guard will have a wide selection of formations, ranging from the useless (Warlord gets Fear!) to the broken (All transports and weapon upgrades are free!).

Book wise, bringing back more focus on regiments other than Cadia and Catachan would do a lot for me. And avoid the absolute trash MS Paint illustrations they're using now to show off colour schemes. Embarrassing.

Oh, and trash the Taurox. Purge from records. Delete with extreme prejudice. Show no mercy. Kill all who mention its name. Strike it from living memory.

This. I agree with just about everything here. Many of which were brought up prior to the most recent codex release yet were ignored. Take Stormtroopers for example (Never going to call them Scions, they are stormtroopers), who is going to pay such an absurd cost for what amounts to adding a SM tactical squad to the board with S3 AP3 weapons? Its just a waste of points.

Give Rough Riders SOMETHING. I haven't seen them fielded once this codex release & refuse to use them myself. Maybe if their power lances were AP2 I would consider fielding them as counter charge units but seeing as more often then not I'm dealing with termies/mega armored nobs with 2+ in melee, that AP3 is worthless.

Lastly...can GW PLEASE stop focusing on Cadians & Catachan? Catachans I don't mind so much, but the endless glorification of the Cadians has gotten old. REALLY old. How is it that Cadians are present in every fight in the universe yet they cannot even secure their homeworld against the forces of Chaos? Makes no sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ustis wrote:
Before viewing this thread, the only change I could think of that I wanted implementing was a form of space marine chapter tactics or "regimental tactics" if you like. I do find it ridiculous that games workshop publications continually re-iterate the marksmanship of cadians, how they can strip, rebuild and fire a lasgun by the age of six, for being renowned as excellent shots yet there is literally no representation of this. A cadian firing a lasgun on the battletop is no different from a valhallan ice warrior, or a catachan jungle fighter. Im not suggesting something as drastic as BS4 for cadians, perhaps merely a reroll of ones? Why don't the steel legion have rules which recognize their mastery of military mechanization? There are many more examples which similarly irritate me. Also new rules would prompt new models; most guard models just really aren't up to the standard at the moment.

I think ogryns becoming an upgrade to infantry platoons is an idea which should be considered, even if it doesn't happen the points value of ogryns needs to decrease.

The idea of the vox network being used to issue one order to multiple units is excellent and makes perfect sense; whilst at the same time making guard more competitive.

I am not desperately hoping for a competitive formation, its not why I play guard; give me regimental diversity and representation and I will be much happier.

I was also disappointed that in the last codex release that regimental special rules were not added. What is the point of having thousands of specialized IG regiments if it is not somehow reflected on the tabletop? If SM can get their own regimental tactics, why can't IG?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That "distinction" is a load of gak.

If you can afford to play 40k, you can afford to mail order forge world.

Not realy. No one sane is going to pay 100$+ dollers for rules he needs for a single unit, add the cost of tax , how offten it comes damaged and how bad FW reacts to cusomers from my part of the world, and it is not affordable.

If SM can get their own regimental tactics, why can't IG?

Because GW has only models for one regiment, two counting the vietcong dudes and they know private firms would make models for missing regiments, as it is something people want.

 Ustis wrote:

Asuo wrote:
I would roll all the units up into formations with the choice od 0-what ever for each entry.

So in Troops you have
Infanty platoon - as per book

Fast attack
Racon Platoon
0-3 sentinelss
0-3 Rough rider/outrider squads
0-3 Valks

Reaction Platoon
0-3 hellhounds
0-3 Vendattas
0-3 Armoured sentinels

Heavy support
Armoured Platoon
bunch of russes and stuff

Artillary platton
0-3 mortor pltoons
0-3 basalisks
0-3 Manticors

and so on and so on.

For little changes
- Make vets an upgrade for standard infantry squads
- Buff Standard Ogryns
- Add back in Storm troopers but make them different to scions

What is the benefit of this proposal? Just opportunity for more heavy support slot units and being able to squadron everything or?...

Baby formations, you take one of these instead of a slot and get a bonus for taking one. The reaction platoon for example could all arrive from reserves as a single entity, the scout platoon could gain scout and so on.

The IG players would be able to taylor their force organisation more buy getting more room out of their avaliable slots, you could build a true artillary company and so on.

Asuo wrote:

 Ustis wrote:

Asuo wrote:
I would roll all the units up into formations with the choice od 0-what ever for each entry.

So in Troops you have
Infanty platoon - as per book

Fast attack
Racon Platoon
0-3 sentinelss
0-3 Rough rider/outrider squads
0-3 Valks

Reaction Platoon
0-3 hellhounds
0-3 Vendattas
0-3 Armoured sentinels

Heavy support
Armoured Platoon
bunch of russes and stuff

Artillary platton
0-3 mortor pltoons
0-3 basalisks
0-3 Manticors

and so on and so on.

For little changes
- Make vets an upgrade for standard infantry squads
- Buff Standard Ogryns
- Add back in Storm troopers but make them different to scions

What is the benefit of this proposal? Just opportunity for more heavy support slot units and being able to squadron everything or?...

Baby formations, you take one of these instead of a slot and get a bonus for taking one. The reaction platoon for example could all arrive from reserves as a single entity, the scout platoon could gain scout and so on.

The IG players would be able to taylor their force organisation more buy getting more room out of their avaliable slots, you could build a true artillary company and so on.

Oh okay that's a valid idea, I assumed that was your aim but wasn't sure as you didn't spell it out.
The artillery platoon is a good idea, in my opinion in regular games of 40k up to six basilisks should be able to be able to be taken so you can summon significant co-ordinated artillery strikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am still yet to see any apocalypse games with huge guard artillery batteries though, which is strange if you think about it as the imperial guard usually have more artillery than you have men.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
I would like to see a bike unit, like the old motor cycle and side cars with either a heavy bolter or heavy stubber attachment. I think it would be a great unit to give the guard some speed.

^^^ This

First and foremost, they can ditch the faux-latin, harry-potter sounding "Astra Militarum" moniker, they're the Imperial Guard.

Now, there's all sorts of insanity that could be undertaken with formations and detachments that I'll avoid for now.

First, they really need Orders to be applied to vehicles, and the HQ tank should just be an upgrade without needing a Squadron, and be able to issue orders the way Infantry command squads can. Voxes also need to function as a range enhancer, not a silly reroll.

However, most IG units need some work, most are still costed and designed to a 5E or even 3E/4E paradigm, and in dire need of assistance, many of which have needed assistance for many years, or in some cases, always since...ever.

Lets go through the list here

HQ:

Commissar Yarrick: 145pts, less survivable than significantly less expensive MEQ characters, not a tremendous degree of utility. If he's going to stay in the same general price range as character like Tigurius, Khan, and the like, he needs to go back to being Fearless and have a fearsome bubble effect. Otherwise he needs a drastic price decrease.

Company Command Squad: Largely actually pretty allright., but certainly could stand to go back down to their 5E costs.

Creed: A very expensive upgrade for an HQ with zero CC potential and only S3 6" range shooting attacks. Kell likewise needs to be paired with him, and costs an absurd number of points.

Straken: Allright, but hugely overcosted.

Deddog: Should be no more than *maybe* 40pts at his current incarnation.

Tank Commander: Make Orders function more like Infantry command squad orders, remove necessity to be in a squadron (where much of his function is just to overcome the detriments of being a Squadron in the first place)

Pask: If Chronus gets to be BS5 and be a W2 Character if his tank dies for just 10pts more than Pask, Pask should really do more than just minorly enhance the main gun for 40pts

Lord Commissar: Sort of functional, but really needs to be like 40/50pts, not 65 base and 80/90 after gear, particularly at T3 with a 5+ save.Somewhat overtaken by Priests in Utility. I'd give them the Priests Zealot ability and instead give the Priest something different.

Commissar: Largeyovertaken by Priests in Utility. I'd give them the Priests Zealot ability and instead give the Priest something different. Unfortunately pointless in most units given the small size, light durability, and low value in most instances.

Priest: Insanely amazing in blob platoons and Ogryn units, otherwise largely pointless. They overtake Commissars in their intended role, I'd make them more combat enhancy than Fearless/morale enhancey.

Primaris Psyker: Unfortuantely they're probably the least impressive psykers in the game for their relative investment. I'm not sure why IG psykers have to be less impressive than anyone else's other than "just because". 50pts for a W2 T3 5+sv lvl1 psyker, or 25pts for a lvl2, isn't particularly stellar.

Engineseer: Hilariously overcosted, really needs the Techmarine/Magos Dominus treatment, better repair ability and a 2nd wound if he's gonna cost 40pts base. That price didn't work in 3E, and it certainly doesn't work in 7E. Perhaps they could be like a 20pt attachment to a vehicle squadron instead?

Troops:

Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad: Not much needs to be done with these other than the aforementioned Orders changes and a drop back to 5E price.

Infantry Squad: These guys need some help. Blob platoons are sort of functional with some HQ support, however, aside from that, they're really bad. Taken as individual units, they're "cheap" in absolute value, but rather expensive for their relative value, and blobbed without HQ support they are absurdly easy to remove en-masse. 50pts for a 10man "3 statline" Ld7 5+sv model with one BS3 heavy weapon and one BS3 special weapon simple is not an appropriate price any longer.

Heavy Weapons Squad: Oh man, these are amongst the worst units in the codex. They're amongst the least cost effective heavy weapons units in the game, some of the most expensive infantry heavy weapons in the game. They cost an additional 50% more than equivalent numbers of already rather expensive Infantry Squad models, and that's before they get any guns. The way these function, as W2 T3 Ld7 models simply makes them absurdly vulnerable to destruction by multi-shot S6 weaponry, a single wound getting through kills off 33% of the unit and forces an Ld7 break test. There's several things that could be done here. They could simply be made vastly cheaper to more appropriately reflect their value. Cut 25pts off each unit and you have a more realistic price for what they're really worth. Three BS3 T3 LD7 models with autocannons is probably worth ~50pts, not 75. The ability to "blob" them would also be really helpful. Alternatively, if we just don't want to make them absurdly cheap, they could be treated differently, much like Gun Teams in Flames of War. We've got two gunners and a large weapon, and the models typically have a gun shield and some sort of "entrenchment" like sand bags that come with the model, why not make them a T5 gun team? Like T7 Artillery, but not quite as impressive.

Special Weapons Squad: Face much the same issue as the above. Most critically they can't take a transport. Give them a transport option and the ability to at least get Ld8 somehow, and we're back on track.

Conscripts: The "blob" ability of basic Infantry Squads has largely made these guys superfluous. I think they should be taken out of the Platoon altogether and be made a simple Troops choice on their own.


Veterans: Largely ok.

Harker: 55pts for an S4 rending Heavy Bolter? 10pts? Sure. 15pts? Maybe. 55pts? That's easily 4x his actual value.


Dedicated Transports:

Chimera: This thing simply needs to be cheaper. 65pts for a transport with a single non-AV10 facing, with BS3 guns, no Fast or Skimmer benefits, a single rear-facing hatch, and that carries T3 5+sv infantry? Absolutely needs to be cheaper. If they want to boost its side armor, then it might be worth 65pts, but at its current stats? Especially after the reduction in fire points? 55pts tops.

Taurox: It's ugly. It's rather pointless. It was unasked for. It fills no role or niche. That said, GW's not going to cut it. If it's going to be kept, with lower BS and side armor than a Razorback, and transporting crappier troops, it really needs to be either cheaper, or faster. If the basic Taurox were also Fast, it would actually have a purpose and be worth the points. Also needs Smoke Launchers as base wargear.

Taurox Prime: Simply too expensive. 80pts base for something only slightly better armored than a Trukk is absurd. It's got decent firepower and speed, but should probably be 20pts cheaper with each of its weapons upgrade options cut in price by half. Also needs Smoke Launchers as base wargear.


Elites:

Ogryn: This is a prime example of where using Ld as an intelligence reflector does not work. These guys are stupid yes, but always portrayed as insanely brave. Stubborn on an Ld6/7 unit doesn't do that, in fact, Stubborn is largely pointless. These guys really should have very high Ld. They also should be like 15/20ppm less. Fix the Ld and cost issues and you've got a workable unit.

Bullgryns: Same as above for Ogryns.

Ratlings: These guys are T2 Elites with Stealth. They're monstrously overcosted at 10ppm, particularly when you've got things like Eldar Rangers as Troops with T3 & Shrouded and functionally the same run/shoot special rule (and Fleet to boot) along with a much more fearsome secondary weapon, at 12ppm. These guys are worth no more than maybe 7 or 8ppm.

Wyrdvane Psykers: A 60pt ML1 psyker taking up an Elites slot? Really?

Tempestus Scions: Guardsmen Statline, Space Marine cost. Heavy weapon AP, Lasgun strength, even worse range. These guys really need a fix. They should be Ld8/9 not 7/8. Either make the gun S4 and assault 2, or dump the AP entirely, make them actual *stormtroopers*, given them WS4, Furious Charge, get a pistol/CCW, and make the gun S3 Assault 3 18" to make them a more functional short range infiltration tactic archetypal "Stormtrooper" unit.


Fast Attack:

Scout Sentinel Squadron: These guys have one schtick, outflanking, and even that, they're not particularly stellar at. AV10, open topped, HP2 is largely equivalent to T6 W2 Sv-, but worse. At 25pts they might be ok, but not at 35ppm or 105pts for a full unit, not for a very easily killed BS3 model with a multilaser.

Armored Sentinel Squadron: These guys are at least useable, but hardly really a "Fast Attack" unit, and still relatively expensive for what they offer. They could probably do with a 5ppm discount.

Rough Riders: Absolutely terrible. 11ppm for a fast moving guardsmen with a one-use, highly situational power weapon, and isn't a Troops unit. They really need to get the DKoK Death Rider treatment (W2 4+sv, A3 etc) for what they cost now.

Hellhound Squadron & Variants: All of these basically need a 40-55pt price cut. Non-skimmer Fast vehicles with short ranged weaponry costing as much as AV14 Battle Tanks and long ranged Skimmer tanks? There's a reason these are largely absent from most armies. They also need to come with smoke launchers base.

Valkyrie: As a naked transport, it's absurdly pricey for what it offers. For its base loadout, it really shouldn't be anything more than 90pts, not 125. The Hellstrike missiles also need to drop Ordnance unless they're going to make them Large Blast as well.

Vendetta: It's fine.


Heavy Support:

Leman Russ Squadron: Imma break this one up by variant

Leman Russ Battle Tank: needs to have a way to use its non-turret weaponry, firing everything else as snapshots is purely punitive and serves no balance function, particularly on a 150pt BS3 tank.
Leman Russ Demolisher: As above, but also needs to be cheaper. Paying 50pts to lose a point of BS and gain better armor over a Vindicator is absurd.
Leman Russ Vanquisher: A single shot BS3 Meltagun that lacks AP1 is not a terribly functional anti-tank unit. This variant really should be BS4 and AP1, or alternatively, something like a 2 shot main gun. With the changes in vehicles to HP's and the nerfing of the damage table, single shot, high pen weapons are of little value, particularly at BS3 and triple digit points. If it had the Coaxial stubber of FW's iterations, to give rerolls on the main gun, that would help a lot, but it needs AP1 either way to really be worth anything.
Leman Russ Eradicator: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Punisher: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Exterminator: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Executioner: Lose Gets Hot on the main gun. Increase its cost by 15pts if you must. The thing just loses too many shots to Gets Hot and is too likely to kill itself over the course of a game to be a functional unit.


Hydras: oh man these got violated with the last codex. They were amazing in 5E. Situational, mediocre, but functional in 6E. When they got the new rules, they lost their "ignore jink saves" rule, and got made Open Topped, for no good reason. Now, the kit's already out, that's not going to change, so making them Closed Topped again won't happen, at least not as a base unit. However, they really should get their "ignores Jink" rule back. I'd also move them to Elites. They're really not a Heavy Support unit, and with the way an IG army works, they'd really be a better fit there.

Basilisk Battery: The Basilisk has been the same stagnant crap unit for 16 years now. It has no purpose outside of Apocalypse games as it's run now. The minimum range needs to be brought down to something like 12-18", otherwise it might as well not be able to indirectly fire with the vast expanse of the board it can't hit within minimum range without exposing itself otherwise. Indirect fire is not worth losing a crapton of armor and becoming Open Topped over just taking a Leman Russ Battle Tank for 25pts more, and even that isn't a great unit. Also, re-include the Griffon and Medusa.

Wyvern: These should probably go up to 80pts, or lose Ignores Cover. Like the Hydra, I'd also move them to Elites. Leave HS to the big guns, lighter guns should go in Elites.

Manticore: Needs a price-break. At 170pts, with limited ammo, and the changes to the vehicle damage table greatly neutering that S10 (and with AP4 neutering its effectiveness against non-vehicles targets that S10 would otherwise be great against), it's simply too many points to fill any real role aside from killing Necron Warriors in the open. Alternatively, redesign the rockets. Make a dedicate anti-armor/antibuilding rocket and an alternate loadout that's more effective against armored infantry.

Deathstrike: This really shouldn't be a "Codex" unit at all, but since it must be, I'd just remove the limit on when you can shoot it. For 160pts and a one-use unit, a 10" S10 AP1 pieplate just isn't that scary anymore.




Other Wargear:
Enclosed Crew Compartment: Really doesn't need to be 15pts, vehicle kill is through HP's, not damage table, this should be a 5 or 10pt upgrade.
Grenade Launchers: At this point, these simply are not useful enough to be taken unless they were free. Even if free, they'd most likely always typically be replaced. Making them Assault 2 or Rapid Fire or the like would hardly be overpowering, and might make them at least worth considering.

I'd also like to see a more "medium tank" type unit. Something along the lines of a Hellhound, but with maybe a twin linked three shot Autocannon turret for ~90pts?

Vaktathi, I don't know if I've ever said this yet, but...

You're alright in my books.

Can you just go ahead and make a fan codex? I'll pay you.

I'm also drunk, so I won't axtuallyt pay you

 Blacksails wrote:
Vaktathi, I don't know if I've ever said this yet, but...

You're alright in my books.

Can you just go ahead and make a fan codex? I'll pay you.

I'm also drunk, so I won't axtuallyt pay you

Wow, Vaktathi that is absolutely dead on! I'd love bringing out my Guard if they were more like you have listed.

I will be satisfied with just 3 changes:

1. Formations! - if they're good for Necrons and Eldar and Space Marines, they're good for the Imperial Guard.

2. Superheavy Tanks - everybody needs big toys, so the Guard need their Baneblades to match up against the Wraitknight GCs and Imperial Knight Superheavy Walkers.

3. Regimental Doctrines - these would be a "free" pick like SM Chapter Traits and cover ALL of the various regiments that GW has actually sold to date: Cadian, Catachan, Tallarn, Valhallan, Mordian, Praetorian, Vostroyan, Armageddon, Elysian, Krieg and Tanith.

Oh, yeah, change the name back to "Imperial Guard".



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
First and foremost, they can ditch the faux-latin, harry-potter sounding "Astra Militarum" moniker, they're the Imperial Guard.

Now, there's all sorts of insanity that could be undertaken with formations and detachments that I'll avoid for now.

First, they really need Orders to be applied to vehicles,

However, most IG units need some work, most are still costed and designed to a 5E or even 3E/4E paradigm,

Deathstrike: This really shouldn't be a "Codex" unit at all, but since it must be, I'd just remove the limit on when you can shoot it.

I'd also like to see a more "medium tank" type unit. Something along the lines of a Hellhound, but with maybe a twin linked three shot Autocannon turret for ~90pts?

Yes, IG should be "Imperial Guard."

Formations and Detachments are mandatory, but I agree that wishlisting them in detail is unnecessary.

I consistently fail to use Orders, even though I'm paying for them. I'd far rather have paid for Cameoline for a Sv 6+/6++ instead of the Sv 5+.

Recosting and fixing will happen anyways, no need to go through the details.

Deathstrike should be S(D) AP1 Ordnance 1 using the 5" template, leaving a 3" wandering bubble of S(D) Doom -or- 2d3 S5 AP3 Barrage rolls on the 5-in-1 Cloverleaf template. This should be FUN to play with.

The Hellhound (and Valk) *is* the medium tank, and IG have plenty enough of those. Make the existing Tanks better, and it's no problem. The Hellhound is already a 3-in-1 kit so it's fine. 3-in-1 the Valkyrie with an extra sprue to cover the Vendetta and some sort of fancy attack craft.

A new medium tank is just something I'd like to see because it'd be cool is all.

Yes hellhounds exist, but they're really more "specialist" tanks, short ranged and usually specialist vehicles. "assault" tanks if you will. I'd just like to see something of roughly similar layout, but with a somewhat longer ranged generalist cannon, like a lighter Exterminator or buffed up Salamander.

The IG equivalent of a Panzer IV to the Leman Russ tank's Tiger II, while the Hellhounds are more like the specialist Flammpanzers.

I dunno, just something I always thought would be fun.

I I'd personally love to see the Griffon & Medusa put back into the future I.G. codex, which I hope we get sooner rather than later. Especially the Griffon, as it actually does have an (admittedly OOP Games Workshop) model kit.

I'm not optimistic about receiving a Guard update till next year at the earliest, since the current codex released right before 7th dropped, but I do hope they tweak many thing in the direction you've proposed Vaktathi.

I'd also dearly love some 'Regimental Tactics" a-la chapter tactics for the Biggest/Most well known/popular Regiments. Specifically: Cadian, Catachan, Armageddon, Tallarn, Vostroyan, Mordian & Valhallan.

Nothing over the top, but something to add flavor. Tallarn having Hit & Run for example. Or Catachans having Move Through Cover, or Vostroyans able to purchase Master Crafted weapons for their squads for XX points per squad. Nothing Game Breaking, but stuff to make different regiments actually *feel* different.

Just my .02 pennies.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

What I'll be looking out for most in a new codex is formations that allow me to represent the diversity of the Guard. I want an Infantry formation where all units have Infiltrate and Shrouded on turn 1 to represent a guerrilla force. I want a deep striking formation to represent a paratrooping force (might be stepping on the Elysians' toes here). I want a formation where all destroyed units come back in reserves on a 4+ to represent the endless hordes.

Tank formations would be good too I guess though that's not the reason I play Guard.

A lot of the suggestions to change units are very good. The unit that I think needs changing most is the Heavy Weapon Squad. They're so fragile, I don't think a simple points reduction would cut it. They need a Toughness increase. 4 would be good, though 5 would be better. That way they're not so vulnerable to pretty much any weapon in the game. I don't even think that would warrant a points increase. Right now they're so unviable it's not even funny.

Vaktathi, I agree with everything you said.

The only thing I'd add (which I think you might have alluded to anyway), is that a lot of our wargear could stand to be cheaper.

Making us pay SM prices for melee weapons is a horrible idea. It means that a SM sergeant pays about 100% of his base cost for a WS4 S4 I4 Power Sword, whilst our sergeants are paying 300% of their base cost for WS3 S3 I3 power swords.

Also, some of our wargear is just bizarrely costed. Like the Death Mask - 30pts to upgrade a 5++ save to a 4++, and IWND and Fear on a T3 model. Or that relic that's an inferior power axe, but costs 10pts more.

I really don't see what the big deal is about the Codex being called "Astra Militarum".

The name gets used three or four times, tops, including the cover and title page of the book before it gets followed up with "Most commonly known as the Imperial Guard".

So why use that name at all then?

It's irritating and pretentious.

 vipoid wrote:
So why use that name at all then?

Do you really need an answer for that?

The name change came after the Chapterhouse case. It was to protect an army with an otherwise generic name.

It's irritating and pretentious.

As opposed to all the Space Marine books now saying "Adeptus Astartes"?

The only problem I have with the Astra Militarum name is that it shortens to AM, so we have to call the real AM the AdMech all the time.

 Kanluwen wrote:


The name change came after the Chapterhouse case. It was to protect an army with an otherwise generic name.

Protect it against what exactly? Were they afraid some other company was going to make a competing IG codex?

 Kanluwen wrote:

As opposed to all the Space Marine books now saying "Adeptus Astartes"?

No, those are equally pretentious.