How could they fix the Astra militarum with a new codex?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Yoyoyo**

It seems that GW has been making player-elected effects like the Psychic phase more reliable, look at the SM Conclave casting powers on a 2+. So I don't think rolling against the commanding unit's Ld is out of line, it fits where 40k is going. Speaking of which, the IG psykers could use a little tweaking. There are three units which are involved, the Primaris, Wyrdvanes, and the Commissars ("It's for your own good" rule).

So imagine this optimal setup: 1x Primaris (ML2), attached to 1x Wyrdvane squad (ML1), backed up by a nearby commissar. Ideally, now we can:

- generate a good amount of warp charge
- generate a good selection of Psychic Powers
- reliably cast those powers
- avoid the effects of perils
- survive on the board long enough to be useful.

Let's say first, Wyrdvanes get cheaper and they can buy a Wyrdvane "sergeant" upgrade that can bump them up to ML2. Second, they get synergy with an embedded Primaris. The Primaris can elect to benefit from the "Brotherhood of Psykers" rule, all powers are now known to the entire unit and wounds can be "Look Out Sir" to the Wyrdvanes. Meanwhile, the Commissar can execute periling Wyrdvanes so you don't suffer warp effects. So basically, your Wyrdvanes are now your WC batteries and the meat shield to the Primaris, while making your psychic phase more reliable in general. They'll never be super tough but perhaps all the Wyrdvanes get refractor shields and a Force weapon? Not a great CC unit but a little more survivable and capable of nastiness against the right unit with a few buffs.

They could be stronger but as usual we save all the really OP

for the formations.

**Blacksails**

Anpu42 wrote:

As we are looking at playing it.
Vox makes Commands Unlimited.
Within the Command Radius you get a Ld re-Roll.
Keeps it simple.

Works for me. Ld off of officer issuing it. All of that is fluffy, logical, and simple while also building off of older rules so as not to be terribly confusing or shocking.

**Humble Guardsman**

Blacksails wrote:
Anpu42 wrote:

As we are looking at playing it.
Vox makes Commands Unlimited.
Within the Command Radius you get a Ld re-Roll.
Keeps it simple.

Works for me. Ld off of officer issuing it. All of that is fluffy, logical, and simple while also building off of older rules so as not to be terribly confusing or shocking.

I agree, that's a good setup. I still think PCs should be restricted to ordering their own platoon though.

**Blacksails**

Its an unnecessary restriction, and makes sense either way fluffwise/in-universe logic.

Plus, it adds the complication of remembering which PCS was bought for which platoon. Just muddles the game.

**Humble Guardsman**

Blacksails wrote:
Its an unnecessary restriction,

It would help prevent players just basing all their PCs at some corer of the board, out of line of sight, while the rest of their platoon is at the frontlines. Part of the idea of junior officers is that they at least lead from the front, it's the higher ranks that direct the movements from behind. There has to be some measure to prevent shenanigans like that.

The 'limitless' exemptions should be restricted to the CC, PC should only get an increase in range.

and makes sense either way fluffwise/in-universe logic.

Not really, speaking from experience platoon level channels are never confused with other platoons, only company wide broadcasts are exempt to this.

Plus, it adds the complication of remembering which PCS was bought for which platoon.

A good point, it would be difficult to remember which squad belonged to which platoon when the game gets underway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Testing for Orders isn't a "demonstration of leadership", it's a test to see whether someone can listen. Because remember it's not a Leadership test for the Officer but rather the ordered unit.

Might as well make it an Initiative test if that's your logic for why it should be a Leadership test.

Following instructions under fire certainly takes a degree of level-headedness and concentration. How is that not appropriate for Leadership?

**master of ordinance**

Hmm... I am still under the opinion that Orders should be free..... But I can see the sense in the arguments otherwise

**Blacksails**

Humble Guardsman wrote:

It would help prevent players just basing all their PCs at some corer of the board, out of line of sight, while the rest of their platoon is at the frontlines. Part of the idea of junior officers is that they at least lead from the front, it's the higher ranks that direct the movements from behind. There has to be some measure to prevent shenanigans like that.

The 'limitless' exemptions should be restricted to the CC, PC should only get an increase in range.

If voxes are unlimited range, then that potential 'issue' (I don't think its one, seeing as PCS can take a gak ton of good weapons that are useful) is going to exist either way. Plus, as discussed, having officers with voxes and within their normal orders radius could provide a re-roll to the order, thus granting some incentive to keep them near a platoon.

A vox network is a vox network. Don't add restrictions where they aren't necessary. The simplest, fluffiest way of doing things is to have voxes create unlimited range between all units with a vox.

Not really, speaking from experience platoon level channels are never confused with other platoons, only company wide broadcasts are exempt to this.

If they're never confused, then it doesn't matter. And real world experience doesn't matter or apply here, seeing as we're talking about a different military organization 40k years in the future. The simple fact is that absolute realism must be put behind making simple, clean, and fun rules. Having voxes create unlimited range is logical and consistent within the universe, and having anyone able to receive orders is both fluffy and logical within the universe, and is the simplest, least confusing and time consuming way of writing the rule.

A good point, it would be difficult to remember which squad belonged to which platoon when the game gets underway.

Which is why its simplest to keep it as it currently stands and allow anyone to order anyone. Currently, a PCS can order a CCS, which still makes sense. If a platoon loses their PCS, they'll likely be very receptive and maybe a little grateful that the nearest junior officer is there to provide leadership and guidance.

**vipoid**

Blacksails wrote:

If they're never confused, then it doesn't matter. And real world experience doesn't matter or apply here, seeing as we're talking about a different military organization 40k years in the future.

A future military organisation so advanced that it deliberately places long-range missiles on the front lines and launches them via a roulette wheel.

**Blacksails**

"Spin it again Bob."

"No way man, fair is fair. You landed on red, and we both know we only get to push the button when it lands on green."

"But Bob, those greenskins are getting awful close..."

"We have rules for a reason. Without them, how would know when to push the button, and more importantly, who gets to push the button. Without these rules, there'd be anarchy."

**vipoid**

Hah, exalted.

**master of ordinance**

Exalted

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

In my house rules, vox gives an extra foot for range, rerolls for the test, and lets you ignore the los and "can't give orders while embarked" restrictions. I see a LOT of vox on my guard player's units

**Humble Guardsman**

Blacksails wrote:

If voxes are unlimited range, then that potential 'issue' (I don't think its one, seeing as PCS can take a gak ton of good weapons that are useful) is going to exist either way. Plus, as discussed, having officers with voxes and within their normal orders radius could provide a re-roll to the order, thus granting some incentive to keep them near a platoon.

A vox network is a vox network. Don't add restrictions where they aren't necessary. The simplest, fluffiest way of doing things is to have voxes create unlimited range between all units with a vox.

It would create an issue, absolutely. Why on earth would players deploy their PCs on the front line with the troops they command (where they should be) rather than hide them away? Much like the difference between a Platoon Standard and Regimental(Company) Standard, there should be a Platoon Vox and a Regimental Vox, the former increasing range while the latter is unlimited.

If they're never confused, then it doesn't matter. And real world experience doesn't matter or apply here, seeing as we're talking about a different military organization 40k years in the future. The simple fact is that absolute realism must be put behind making simple, clean, and fun rules. Having voxes create unlimited range is logical and consistent within the universe, and having anyone able to receive orders is both fluffy and logical within the universe, and is the simplest, least confusing and time consuming way of writing the rule.

You can't have it one way saying that the realism must be put to one side, then claim that a common vox net is both fluffy and logical in universe. It really isn't, a company simply can't operate in the heat of battle with everyone on the same channel.
If you're arguing that a common vox net should be implemented purely for the sake of simplicity then understand that, though I would still disagree.

Which is why its simplest to keep it as it currently stands and allow anyone to order anyone. Currently, a PCS can order a CCS, which still makes sense. If a platoon loses their PCS, they'll likely be very receptive and maybe a little grateful that the nearest junior officer is there to provide leadership and guidance.

No doubt, which is why a limiting on the range of a PC vox is still necessary. If we allow limitless orders at the PC level, theoretically you would only need one surviving PC squirreled away in the corner of the board to provide effective orders to units on the other side of the field. That should be the purview of the CC, the PC should be focused on the more immediate situation.

Essentially, I'm okay with PCs being able to give orders to any unit but making their orders unlimited via vox (rather than substantially increased range) is nonsensical and frankly broken.

**Blacksails**

Humble Guardsman wrote:

It would create an issue, absolutely. Why on earth would players deploy their PCs on the front line with the troops they command (where they should be) rather than hide them away? Much like the difference between a Platoon Standard and Regimental(Company) Standard, there should be a Platoon Vox and a Regimental Vox, the former increasing range while the latter is unlimited.

Why? A vox is a vox, and at 40k's scale, there's no sense in getting into the nitty gritty of the model of vox issued at various levels of command and their respective ranges measured in metres. At the scale 40k operates at, it makes no sense to have one command unit have a limited range vox, and an another have a better vox unit. Not only is this confusing for all players, it takes up more space in the wargear section needlessly, and bog the game down remembering the differences and measuring ranges, when the alternative is just to have a blanket infinite range between two voxes.

You can't have it one way saying that the realism must be put to one side, then claim that a common vox net is both fluffy and logical in universe. It really isn't, a company simply can't operate in the heat of battle with everyone on the same channel.
If you're arguing that a common vox net should be implemented purely for the sake of simplicity then understand that, though I would still disagree.

You're confusing realism with in game logic. My argument is that within the logic, fluff, and example of the universe of 40k, an infinite range (or so large as to not matter at 40k's scale) makes complete and total sense. Further, who says anything about operating on the same channel. I'm no radio-ologist, but I'm 99% certain a skilled operator could handily switch to whatever channel is required at the moment, which also explains how everyone could be on the same vox-net, which in game, would be represented by every vox carrying officer could issue an order across the board to any vox equipped squad.

No doubt, which is why a limiting on the range of a PC vox is still necessary. If we allow limitless orders at the PC level, theoretically you would only need one surviving PC squirreled away in the corner of the board to provide effective orders to units on the other side of the field. That should be the purview of the CC, the PC should be focused on the more immediate situation.

It should be the purview of whatever the controlling player wants it to be. Again, your suggestion only complicates what should be an extremely simple rule that would provide a nice boost to an otherwise useless piece of wargear. And having a PCS tucked away may be perfectly fluffy for that player's regiment, or for the mission at hand, or because the PCS is busy eating a hot dog or getting wasted. If a player wants to hide their command elements and use their wargear the way they want in a perfectly acceptable and fluffy manner, then power to them. A PCS would have incentives to lead; re-rolls for being within range, and having a plethora of special and heavy weapons to support the infantry squads.

Don't force players into a certain play style or singular way of using something, especially if it is also a more complicated proposal for no real benefit, either in gameplay or fluff. Voxes should be a vox-net that everyone can use across the board. Its simple, easy to use and learn as the controlling player and as the opponent, and makes as much sense in-universe as any other justification.

Essentially, I'm okay with PCs being able to give orders to any unit but making their orders unlimited via vox (rather than substantially increased range) is nonsensical and frankly broken.

**Humble Guardsman**

I disagree, but you've made your point and I've made mine so I'll leave it there. Cheers.

**Yoyoyo**

Yeah! And now onto Fearless Rough Riders with Hit and Run

**master of ordinance**

Yoyoyo wrote:
Yeah! And now onto Fearless Rough Riders with Hit and Run

Still would not take them. To get the benefit from HaR they have to be alive when they reach the enemy squad.

**TheCustomLime**

Your average 40k battlefield is about the size of a Wal-mart parking lot. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine that a Junior officer would be able to radio in a squad 200 feet away to tell them to start firing faster.

**stripeydave**

master of ordinance wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Yeah! And now onto Fearless Rough Riders with Hit and Run

Still would not take them. To get the benefit from HaR they have to be alive when they reach the enemy squad.

Now, RR with carapace armour and T4? I'm listening...

**vipoid**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Your average 40k battlefield is about the size of a Wal-mart parking lot. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine that a Junior officer would be able to radio in a squad 200 feet away to tell them to start firing faster.

Though, one might well question why they're not firing faster to begin with.

"Ok, men, it's only a Bloodthirster. Just conserve your energy and fire at a nice, leisurely pace. I'm sure none of us want tired trigger-fingers when the real challenge shows up."

**TheCustomLime**

This is the Imperial Guard we're talking about . They don't fire their Lascannons effectively at those same Bloodthirsters until they are explicitly told to do so.

"Sarge! We have a greater Daemon the Horizon! Shall we fire with our heavy weapons?"

"Smite them with the Emperor's Wrath, Corporal"

"Sarge! Our Lascannons aren't having much of an effect. Shall we put our monster killing training into effect?".

"Did Major Smithers tell us to do that?"

"Major Smithers is dead..."

"Then just keep firing blindly at him, Corporal! The chain of command exists for a reason! Without it the Astra Militarum would cease to exist overnight!"

**vipoid**

I must be running out of exalts by now.

**ionusx**

remove knight commander pask
HOWEVER
give them a regimental detachment bonus that grants them no scatter blast weapons and and weapons fired with the "heavy" type count as having pinning (if you take double base detachments your orders are always successfully issued)

this right here is a huge change. yes you lose pask but it offsets the fact that basilisk squadrons have no scatter, plasmacutioners have no scatter, leman russ demolishers have no scatter, deathstrikes dont scatter. there is a lot of power in that one bonus.

and pretty much every vehicle they posess has either an HB or a multi-laser or a lascannon, and even sentinels benefit in that they all have loody f!cking pinning. combined with flawless order issuing and you have a very powerful combo.

yes the wyvern only gets more obscene and bloated with rules but its a small price to pay, heck hydra flakk batteries even become useful as a way of getting those vital pinning checks a going and pinning spam could become a very real tactic for IG to emply

id remove the tempestus outright from their codex. make it a MT's codex exclusive unit again, or if they do retain then leave the price as is and slash options, give players the incentive to experiment with double army book forces and explain that their better as a pair than they are as two seperates.

rough riders need a fix as stated perhaps grant them hit n run or a quasi furious charge if taken in the regimental detachment

formations formations formation, this army needs formations like a lonesome and bored teenage guy needs his pictures of naked people and hand rolled darts. give them lots of formations and make them interesting, grant them one unique detachment for say steel legion? or maybe one for tallarn's or maybe even give them one for vostroyans. incentivise the use of detachments and formations over the CAD if theres ever an army that can show the potential of formations competently the imperial guard are it

finally i think that ogryns and bullgryns need to be re-examined. dont treat them as a tax unit in the regimental flow chart, or as an ugly tumor sticking out of the elites section, give them purpose please

as an off-set to this move veterans to the elite section and out of troops and move conscripts to troops, with a cap of 20 men to a squad, but a formation granting you many more per squad or multiple squads that are treated as one unit. maybe also make ratlings a troops choice.

**TheCustomLime**

Why remove Pask?

**vipoid**

Perhaps we could give the Punisher Rending, so that Pask isn't required to make it worth a damn.

**Selym**

vipoid wrote:
Perhaps we could give the Punisher Rending, so that Pask isn't required to make it worth a damn.

Pask doesn't give them rending, he just steals Assault Cannon rounds from all the Spess Mehreen allies he is taken with..

Punisher + Assault Cannon = wtfpwnage

**TheCustomLime**

It's not like he's the only Imperial stealing from the Space Marines these days. *Cough* Skitarii *Cough*

**Ashiraya**

Yeah, what happened to their Volkite? No one can say for sure, it is just said that a red-robed hunch-backed brute was seen skittering off with a big bag of bulky items...

**Yoyoyo**

master of ordinance wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Yeah! And now onto Fearless Rough Riders with Hit and Run

Still would not take them. To get the benefit from HaR they have to be alive when they reach the enemy squad.

I think Rough Riders suffer immensely from being a fragile CC unit in an army that tends to castle up and gunline. If they'd have support from Hellhound variants and Sentinels who can overwhelm enemy target priority, or help screen them on the advance, their fragility wouldn't nearly be so much of an issue. You'd have to playtest to determine this. Anyways, I think everyone agrees that Rough Riders are overcosted. More models in the squad would make them more survivable when facing anything that fires at S6+ and ignores a 4+ save. T4 and 4+ would make them shrug off small arms better. What's better? Maybe we leave it up to the player to decide. So, the "split the difference" solution is we make the basic squad cheaper and let each player tailor upgrades to suit their use. WS4, BS4 and cheap Power Mauls wouldn't their hurt performance either.

I like cinematic units. Losing half the squad getting there, and then seeing them still wreck face on the charge with lances before switching to their maces to bash heads close-up -- that appeals to me. So basically I want to figure out how to make that a reality on the tabletop, and avoid scenarios that aren't fun, like running from the tabletop instead of dying gloriously to the last man. I6 on the charge? Hell yeah, let's see them smash apart Aspect Warriors on the charge and then get cut to shreds up close afterwards, they're only puny humans after all. That's the idea!

vipoid wrote:
Perhaps we could give the Punisher Rending, so that Pask isn't required to make it worth a damn.

All borderline OP boosts belong in Formations but they do work there. Say you take an entire Tank squadron of one type, you get the corresponding special rule for it's main gun.

Punisher - Rending
Vanquisher - BS+1, Tank Hunter
Demolisher - Ignores Cover
Executioner - Preferred Enemy
Exterminator - If stationary, may fire Exterminator Autocannon twice (original or different target)
Eradicator - Shred
LRBT - Pinning, Concussive

Obviously we just threw the normal CAD costing completely out of balance. That's ok, now we maintain balance through competing formations and obligatory compulsory choices.

**Selym**

IG Ordnance weapons should have a Sqn rule that has them remove any terrain they hit, and then resolve damage to the unit (which probably means stripping their cover saves).