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 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The problem is that at the current costs, a typical IG army takes two large briefcases to move to the FLGS.

5 ppm for infantry is about the right cost for cannon fodder, but our cannnon fodder is worth about 3 ppm.

My standby army-wide rule that fixes our infantry (minus killpower):

Human Ingenuity:
Humans are right bastards to remove once entrenched.
-All IG infantry gain a permanent +1 cover save, to a minimum of 6+, and a maximum of 2+.

No. Just no. Do you have any idea how much tougher that makes the IG? That's easily worth doubling their costs. And I have no idea what your taking about "fixing" their killpower.

Whats the matter? Scared that the Guard might actually get a save against your AP5 and better spam? That you might actually have to apply more than brute force to deal with us?
A +1 to the cover save is nothing. It gives us a 6+ out of terrain and a slightly better save in it. And given that we are usually being hit and wounded on a 3+ or better there is no reason to deny us a little survivability.
As for the kill power, YOU try equipping all of your guys with Lasguns and see what happens.

It's called "Wyverns".

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The problem is that at the current costs, a typical IG army takes two large briefcases to move to the FLGS.

5 ppm for infantry is about the right cost for cannon fodder, but our cannnon fodder is worth about 3 ppm.

My standby army-wide rule that fixes our infantry (minus killpower):

Human Ingenuity:
Humans are right bastards to remove once entrenched.
-All IG infantry gain a permanent +1 cover save, to a minimum of 6+, and a maximum of 2+.

No. Just no. Do you have any idea how much tougher that makes the IG? That's easily worth doubling their costs. And I have no idea what your taking about "fixing" their killpower.

Whats the matter? Scared that the Guard might actually get a save against your AP5 and better spam? That you might actually have to apply more than brute force to deal with us?
A +1 to the cover save is nothing. It gives us a 6+ out of terrain and a slightly better save in it. And given that we are usually being hit and wounded on a 3+ or better there is no reason to deny us a little survivability.
As for the kill power, YOU try equipping all of your guys with Lasguns and see what happens.

It's called "Wyverns".

Congratulations, you just named one of the 2 units in the entire Codex that is actually worth its points.

As someone who doesn't things IG are anywhere as bad as some people make out, they are anything but broken.

Wyverns are not the be-all-end-all solution to the IG's issues. The whole codex needs a rebuild at the conceptual level.

I took a baneblade once in a game and Immediately regretted not taking my cheaper, more efficient knight.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
As someone who doesn't things IG are anywhere as bad as some people make out, they are anything but broken.

This from a Tau player Whats the matter, scared about the prospect of not being able to blow us away in a couple of turns anymore?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
As someone who doesn't things IG are anywhere as bad as some people make out, they are anything but broken.

This from a Tau player Whats the matter, scared about the prospect of not being able to blow us away in a couple of turns anymore?

Nah, they're still bad, just not CSM bad.

I'd love for IG to get a new, well deigned codex. Sadley, from what the tau got, you'll probably just get a paid FAQ and formations.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
As someone who doesn't things IG are anywhere as bad as some people make out, they are anything but broken.

This from a Tau player Whats the matter, scared about the prospect of not being able to blow us away in a couple of turns anymore?

Nah, they're still bad, just not CSM bad.

I'd love for IG to get a new, well deigned codex. Sadley, from what the tau got, you'll probably just get a paid FAQ and formations.

If that happens I will abandon 40K.

If the formations are BOGO, that'd be OK.

From my POV, IG are not underpowered, just grossly suffering from overcosted ALL of the "classic" (2E) units: Platoons, Chimeras, Ogryns, Ratlings, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Hellhounds, Bassies & Russes.

Cut all of those costs in half via BOGO formations, and they are the shooty horde that I want to play.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If the formations are BOGO, that'd be OK.

From my POV, IG are not underpowered, just grossly suffering from overcosted ALL of the "classic" (2E) units: Platoons, Chimeras, Ogryns, Ratlings, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Hellhounds, Bassies & Russes.

Cut all of those costs in half via BOGO formations, and they are the shooty horde that I want to play.

But that's the issue that I have with this. Just doing "BOGO" isn't actually fixing the issue--they're stupidly costed for what you get. The only thing it does is encourage you to either spend money or spam the cheapest thing possible to get the good stuff free.

I would FAR rather have Orders applying to the whole army at once, vehicles being able to accept Orders, and a "Coordinated Fire" rule like what we just saw with the Tau--along with giving the Guard the Overwatch capability that THEY should have gotten instead of the Tau in the first place.

And honestly, when we talk about "BOGO formations"? People who keep pointing at Space Marines need to realize it's for Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods for the two Gladius Companies.
Oh no, you've got a DT for each squad rolling at me! Let me surrender--those things are terrifying!
...Said noone ever about Rhinos/Razorbacks.

Drop Pods are an entirely different story though...and it's not like they're super expensive to begin with.

Giving IG the same sort of over-watch thing would make sense (at least on the guardsmen squads), but I'm unsure why tau shouldn't have gotten it. They're worse off against assaults than even IG.

Because very few things live long enough to assault Tau

Guard don't need overwatch or chromey rules. They're basic infantry.

The higher you raise the Guard, the more you lower *everything* else in the game. The point of the Guard is that they are ordinary humans against giant fungus monsters, inhumanly agile aliens, huge scary bugs - and they win via the inexhaustible mass of material the Imperial Soviet can eventually bring to bear.

Perhaps the "balancing" thing for BOGO would be that the freebies always start in Reserve, while the base unit must always start on the board. This solves the 22 tanks + 200 infantry deployment "problem" as well, while adding a tactical / strategic dimension of the initial Guard forces needing to hold out for reinforcements.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Guard don't need overwatch or chromey rules. They're basic infantry.

The higher you raise the Guard, the more you lower *everything* else in the game. The point of the Guard is that they are ordinary humans against giant fungus monsters, inhumanly agile aliens, huge scary bugs - and they win via the inexhaustible mass of material the Imperial Soviet can eventually bring to bear.

And? Why should that affect our defensive measures?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Giving IG the same sort of over-watch thing would make sense (at least on the guardsmen squads), but I'm unsure why tau shouldn't have gotten it. They're worse off against assaults than even IG.

I should have clarified a bit more:
Tau are not the only ones who should have gotten it. Guard should have gotten it first. Period. When we talk about Guardsmen, we're not talking about just waves of humanity--we're talking about trained soldiers who do the exact same kinds of overlapping fields of fire that the Tau have as their justification for Supporting Fire.

Hell, Supporting Fire should have been a USR instead of Tau specific.

Edit: Actually, nevermind. I'd argue with you, but I'd rather not swing this thread massively OT.

(directed at MoO)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Giving IG the same sort of over-watch thing would make sense (at least on the guardsmen squads), but I'm unsure why tau shouldn't have gotten it. They're worse off against assaults than even IG.

I should have clarified a bit more:
Tau are not the only ones who should have gotten it. Guard should have gotten it first. Period. When we talk about Guardsmen, we're not talking about just waves of humanity--we're talking about trained soldiers who do the exact same kinds of overlapping fields of fire that the Tau have as their justification for Supporting Fire.

Hell, Supporting Fire should have been a USR instead of Tau specific.

That would make sense. Although, I would still stand by my wanting of it to be restricted to 6", and it would defiantly need to be if everybody had it (so assault would still be viable).

@moo - I'm not sure I follow your objection. I'm saying the mostly grossly overcosted stuff gets an effective 50% price cut, in exchange for reduced deployment flexibility.

I don't see how that reduces defenses. If anything it doubled the defense (and offsense) by doubling the number of thing the enemy needs to kill.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Guard don't need overwatch or chromey rules. They're basic infantry.

And? Fire Warriors are basic infantry, yet given "overwatch and chromey rules".
Ork Boyz are basic infantry, yet given "chromey rules".
Etc etc


What do Guardsmen have? Serious question, what do you think they have that somehow justifies them being the "baseline" of the game?

The higher you raise the Guard, the more you lower *everything* else in the game. The point of the Guard is that they are ordinary humans against giant fungus monsters, inhumanly agile aliens, huge scary bugs - and they win via the inexhaustible mass of material the Imperial Soviet can eventually bring to bear.

That's a gross misunderstanding of Guard at the tabletop level--and of the more "elite" Guard Regiments to begin with.
The Guard don't succeed just because they can keep throwing bodies at a problem, they succeed by having the whole of the Imperium to draw upon. They can bring in Cadian Shock Regiments to have a core of well-trained and exceedingly disciplined marksmen to anchor the lines, they can bring in Catachans to have jungle fighting expertise, they can bring in Elysians to bring in highly mobile light infantry, etc etc.

Perhaps the "balancing" thing for BOGO would be that the freebies always start in Reserve, while the base unit must always start on the board. This solves the 22 tanks + 200 infantry deployment "problem" as well.

Or the "balancing" thing could be to properly price the stuff in the first place and completely eliminate the need for BOGO nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Giving IG the same sort of over-watch thing would make sense (at least on the guardsmen squads), but I'm unsure why tau shouldn't have gotten it. They're worse off against assaults than even IG.

I should have clarified a bit more:
Tau are not the only ones who should have gotten it. Guard should have gotten it first. Period. When we talk about Guardsmen, we're not talking about just waves of humanity--we're talking about trained soldiers who do the exact same kinds of overlapping fields of fire that the Tau have as their justification for Supporting Fire.

Hell, Supporting Fire should have been a USR instead of Tau specific.

That would make sense. Although, I would still stand by my wanting of it to be restricted to 6", and it would defiantly need to be if everybody had it (so assault would still be viable).

Even keeping it at 12" for everyone else wouldn't somehow eliminate the Tau advantage, since Tau and Dark Angels are the only armies which can approach their basic BS on Overwatch.
Notice that I said armies. I'm well aware that there is a Warlord trait for Skitarii which grants the Warlord and his unit the ability to Overwatch at their unmodified Ballistic Skill.


Assault armies need more in any regards, but that's a different thread.

Eh I wouldn't describe FWs as "basic infantry" when compared to conscripts, or even guardsmen. The fire caste have a birth-to-death training system, that constantly enforces teamwork, precision, covering the other teams weaknesses. But I agree with the point being made.


Edit:no, I want 6" for everybody, tau included.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Eh I wouldn't describe FWs as "basic infantry" when compared to conscripts, or even guardsmen.

They are. They really are. If you want something to compare Fire Warriors to, based strictly upon lore, it would be Guardsmen. Throw out your knowledge of Conscripts because even those guys if going on lore aren't the incompetent tools they're made out to be in certain novels.

The fire caste have a birth-to-death training system, that constantly enforces teamwork, precision, covering the other teams weaknesses. But I agree with the point being made.

Read anything about Cadians? Steel Legion? Catachans?
Cadians are if anything more hardcore about training than even the Schola Progenium.

Edit:no, I want 6" for everybody, tau included.

I can get behind that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Eh I wouldn't describe FWs as "basic infantry" when compared to conscripts, or even guardsmen.

They are. They really are. If you want something to compare Fire Warriors to, based strictly upon lore, it would be Guardsmen. Throw out your knowledge of Conscripts because even those guys if going on lore aren't the incompetent tools they're made out to be in certain novels.

The fire caste have a birth-to-death training system, that constantly enforces teamwork, precision, covering the other teams weaknesses. But I agree with the point being made.

Read anything about Cadians? Steel Legion? Catachans?
Cadians are if anything more hardcore about training than even the Schola Progenium.

Edit:no, I want 6" for everybody, tau included.

I can get behind that.

Places like cadia and catachan are real outliers in the big scheme of things (cadia is in a constant state of war, can catachan is a fething deathworld, nowhere close to your average imperial world). Now this doesn't mean guardsmen aren't well trained, they'd just be at a level with a low-rank modern military force (like private or corporeal, I forget how military rankings work). A tau shas'la would be closer to a guard Sargent. Conscripts are, well, conscripts. Minimal training, sent out with a gun and a flack-jacket.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I took a baneblade once in a game and Immediately regretted not taking my cheaper, more efficient knight.

You mean the thing with 1/6th the firepower and 3 fewer hullpoints? Riiiight...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And "buy one get one free" is the most absurdly op thing I've ever heard of.

A basic baneblade (which has and auto-cannon, the baneblade cannon, the demolisher cannon, and a TL BH) costs over 525 points. A Knight Palidin (which has a heavy stubber, the rapid fire battle cannon, and the reaper chainsword) costs 375 points.


Not to push any side of the debate, just to make it a bit clearer.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
And "buy one get one free" is the most absurdly op thing I've ever heard of.

Not when the specific models you're buying and getting are as absurdly overpriced as they are in the current Codex.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I took a baneblade once in a game and Immediately regretted not taking my cheaper, more efficient knight.

You mean the thing with 1/6th the firepower and 3 fewer hullpoints? Riiiight....

Sure it has less HP, but it is putting out more damage per shooting phase, can murder just about anything in lose combat, is far more survivable as it ignores 50% of damaging hits and is fare more cost efficient.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
And "buy one get one free" is the most absurdly op thing I've ever heard of.

Not when the specific models you're buying and getting are as absurdly overpriced as they are in the current Codex.

Agreed. We already pay through the nose for the middling tier crap that we get. Why not let us have some shiny stuff for free?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Eh I wouldn't describe FWs as "basic infantry" when compared to conscripts, or even guardsmen.

They are. They really are. If you want something to compare Fire Warriors to, based strictly upon lore, it would be Guardsmen. Throw out your knowledge of Conscripts because even those guys if going on lore aren't the incompetent tools they're made out to be in certain novels.

The fire caste have a birth-to-death training system, that constantly enforces teamwork, precision, covering the other teams weaknesses. But I agree with the point being made.

Read anything about Cadians? Steel Legion? Catachans?
Cadians are if anything more hardcore about training than even the Schola Progenium.

Edit:no, I want 6" for everybody, tau included.

I can get behind that.

Places like cadia and catachan are real outliers in the big scheme of things (cadia is in a constant state of war, can catachan is a fething deathworld, nowhere close to your average imperial world).

They're not as rare as you make them out to be. The Imperium has a great many Deathworlds, many of which are inhabited and produce Guard tithings. Cadia is not the only fortress world either; just the only one whose entire population is considered to be part of the fighting force.

Now this doesn't mean guardsmen aren't well trained, they'd just be at a level with a low-rank modern military force (like private or corporeal, I forget how military rankings work).

As a general rule, your run of the mill Guardsmen are recruited from the PDF per GW. So they're semi-professional soldiers(varying from planet to planet) before even being recruited into the Guard.

A tau shas'la would be closer to a guard Sargent.

Would he really be though? Tau have a much shorter lifespan compared to a human and they do not have access to Warp travel either--which is where a large amount of specialized Guard training takes place en route to a warzone.

A Shas'la is your basic Fire Warrior. Equating him to a Guard Sergeant(much less a veteran Guard Sergeant!) is kind of silly, even taking into account the whole "Fire Caste are bred solely for war". We don't know the age they mature at, we don't know when they start training, etc.

We do actually have that frame of reference for some specific Guard regiments.
Cadians start training around 6-8 years old(8 being on the "late" scale), get inducted into Whiteshield Platoons at 12-15, and can be brought in as full Guardsmen by the time most modern soldiers are graduating high school.

Just think about that for a moment there. That is a HUGE difference compared to "modern" militaries.
Additionally, for a modern military? The rank that someone holds does not necessarily reflect their level of experience.

Conscripts are, well, conscripts. Minimal training, sent out with a gun and a flack-jacket.

Conscripts vary wildly from world to world though.

On Cadia, "Conscripts" are exclusively Whiteshields--teenagers who are on their way to becoming full Guardsmen.
On Catachan/Elysia, they have no Conscripts--their populations are small enough that every one is best considered a "specialist".
On Armageddon/Necromunda/Hive Worlds of that nature, a "Conscript" could include Hive Gangers who have been engaged in some kind of violent act since their formative years.

Conscript is a very loose term, and it is why I object to them even having brought them into the Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I took a baneblade once in a game and Immediately regretted not taking my cheaper, more efficient knight.

You mean the thing with 1/6th the firepower and 3 fewer hullpoints? Riiiight...

He means the thing which has an Invulnerable save on one facing, that can make Stomp attacks and can fight in CC.

And "buy one get one free" is the most absurdly op thing I've ever heard of.

Eh. With the state of Guard now?

That's like Orks buying two mobs of Boyz and getting a free mob of Gretchin. Yeah, you get something free...but really who gives a crap?

I'd rather they fix the issues than just go BOGO.

All the fighting is crazy. IG suck because vehicles suck now. MCs are where its at and IG dont have those.

Baneblades need to be reduced in price, and bought in formations. 300 a piece for the lesser models, like the baneword or the stormlord should be a decent price, seeing where the game is going now. Then you get 3 of them for 750, with a 4+ invul save and fearless infantry within 12''.

Add inn off-bord artilley with infantry spotters as a new model, and we're in business.

I posted earlier where the baneblade variants would be if priced at a somewhat balanced level with imperial knights. Yaric would be a lord of war in order to allow you 2 command squads without buying extra troops and you still want him for some reason. Also, the three fast tanks the guard have are designed to close the distance and claim forward ground. You will notice the price tweeks I suggested for them also.


The primary problem with guard is the amount of escalating potency weapons in existence right now where they become more efficient the more durable your target is. Lance, haywire, and strD all ignore the points spent by things like the leman Russ on high armor value. If you drop the scatterbikes to a 4+ (which I have in my houserules since i picked up MY 6th ed book) and add the missing 100 points to the wraithknight suddenly there isn't as much to worry about. When a heavy bolter can make jetbikes jink, suddenly spending the extra 10 points for better guns isn't the obvious choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You'll notice with those changes the guardsmen can be farther afield and still receive orders, the roughriders are harder to put down, and some of the vehicles no longer pay obscene points for ranges they will almost never see.

 triplegrim wrote:
Add inn off-bord artilley with infantry spotters as a new model, and we're in business.

OK, just what sort of off-board artillery are we talking about?

1 "FREE" S9 AP2 Apocalypse (cloverleaf) Barrage for every non-Wyvern unit you buy?