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Martel732 wrote:
People need to understand something here. Space Marines are a very strong codex, but you need to take very specific builds and units to unlock that strength. Note that very few of these units are actually meqs. If little Timmy is just throwing out a bunch of tac squads, a devastator squad, and a couple of crappy marine tanks, then his implementation of SM is indeed inferior to many CSM or IG lists.

A huge part of this is just how terrible tactical squads are at killing, well, pretty much anything. Defensively, they are efficient, but that's no longer relevant in deathhammer 40K. I understand that guardsmen are a sweet spot for the bolter, but that one fact does not make the tactical marine good. They are still a terrible, terrible troop.

Well unfortunately for me when I got into Space Marines I got a battle company. So most of my stuff is Tactical Marines. And it irks me that some people still think I'm a donkey cave for playing Marines. But this thread isn't about Marines. It's about Guard, and what they need to be fixed in their next book. Let's get back on topic. I'll start.

Guard Needs:
-Lumbering Behemoth back for the Russes
-Points drop on the Hellhound and it's variants
-Points drop on Ogryns/Bullgryns
-Regimental Doctrines
-Something to help out bog standard Guardsmen
-Not even going to start on Rough Riders

Martel732 wrote:
People need to understand something here. Space Marines are a very strong codex, but you need to take very specific builds and units to unlock that strength. Note that very few of these units are actually meqs. If little Timmy is just throwing out a bunch of tac squads, a devastator squad, and a couple of crappy marine tanks, then his implementation of SM is indeed inferior to many CSM or IG lists.

A huge part of this is just how terrible tactical squads are at killing, well, pretty much anything. Defensively, they are efficient, but that's no longer relevant in deathhammer 40K. I understand that guardsmen are a sweet spot for the bolter, but that one fact does not make the tactical marine good. They are still a terrible, terrible troop.

Inferior to IG lists, I'll grant you. But speaking as a SM player, and IG player an an ex CSM player, lil' Timmy is now playing a somewhat balanced army against CSM. And by balanced, I mean only slightly more points efficient.

 War Kitten wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
People need to understand something here. Space Marines are a very strong codex, but you need to take very specific builds and units to unlock that strength. Note that very few of these units are actually meqs. If little Timmy is just throwing out a bunch of tac squads, a devastator squad, and a couple of crappy marine tanks, then his implementation of SM is indeed inferior to many CSM or IG lists.

A huge part of this is just how terrible tactical squads are at killing, well, pretty much anything. Defensively, they are efficient, but that's no longer relevant in deathhammer 40K. I understand that guardsmen are a sweet spot for the bolter, but that one fact does not make the tactical marine good. They are still a terrible, terrible troop.

Well unfortunately for me when I got into Space Marines I got a battle company. So most of my stuff is Tactical Marines. And it irks me that some people still think I'm a donkey cave for playing Marines. But this thread isn't about Marines. It's about Guard, and what they need to be fixed in their next book. Let's get back on topic. I'll start.

Guard Needs:
-Lumbering Behemoth back for the Russes
-Points drop on the Hellhound and it's variants
-Points drop on Ogryns/Bullgryns
-Regimental Doctrines
-Something to help out bog standard Guardsmen
-Not even going to start on Rough Riders

I brought up space marines because the IG players brought them up.

I'd agree with those guard needs, but you forget the #1 thing: better vehicle rules.

That goes without saying Martel. But yes. I did forget to put that on there.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
People need to understand something here. Space Marines are a very strong codex, but you need to take very specific builds and units to unlock that strength. Note that very few of these units are actually meqs. If little Timmy is just throwing out a bunch of tac squads, a devastator squad, and a couple of crappy marine tanks, then his implementation of SM is indeed inferior to many CSM or IG lists.

A huge part of this is just how terrible tactical squads are at killing, well, pretty much anything. Defensively, they are efficient, but that's no longer relevant in deathhammer 40K. I understand that guardsmen are a sweet spot for the bolter, but that one fact does not make the tactical marine good. They are still a terrible, terrible troop.

Inferior to IG lists, I'll grant you. But speaking as a SM player, and IG player an an ex CSM player, lil' Timmy is now playing a somewhat balanced army against CSM. And by balanced, I mean only slightly more points efficient.

Nurgle marines are still better infantry than anything SM have. What CSM lack are the toys like invis cent stars. But against tac marines and marine vehicles, CSM can wreck face with relatively little problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 War Kitten wrote:
That goes without saying Martel. But yes. I did forget to put that on there.

The guardsmen have always been dependent upon vehicles. Now that vehicles are generally bad, there is more weight put on the shoulders of the guardsmen. I think that if vehicles were substantially improved, the regular guardsmen go back to being able to do their jobs fine with no little/no buffs.

Note that guardsmen have synergies in the game that marines lack. Ie, they get way more out of most divination powers, especially misfortune.

Akiasura wrote:
What about the tau shotguns? I think they are fluffy but not op, but I've never seen them played

The problem with them is that they have an overpriced delivery system. And they have to get within that short rang to be effective, otherwise carbines are better.

Games Workshop wrote:Pushing ever forward, led by the watchful eyes of a reconnaissance Sentinel, the soldiers of the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon are as relentless as they are determined. Laying down a constant hail of withering fire as they move, this platoon scythes down rank upon rank of enemies - few targets can withstand the brunt of their assault for long.

This bundle gives you everything needed to field the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, a formation found in War Zone Damocles: Mont’ka. You’ll receive a Cadian Command Squad, two sets of Cadian Shock Troops, two Cadian Heavy Weapons Squads and three Sentinels - thirty-four models in total, for an awesome Astra Militarum strike force!

Source

Well, well, well.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:Pushing ever forward, led by the watchful eyes of a reconnaissance Sentinel, the soldiers of the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon are as relentless as they are determined. Laying down a constant hail of withering fire as they move, this platoon scythes down rank upon rank of enemies - few targets can withstand the brunt of their assault for long.

This bundle gives you everything needed to field the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, a formation found in War Zone Damocles: Mont’ka. You’ll receive a Cadian Command Squad, two sets of Cadian Shock Troops, two Cadian Heavy Weapons Squads and three Sentinels - thirty-four models in total, for an awesome Astra Militarum strike force!

Source

Well, well, well.

Odd. That's not on the UK site...

Closest we have is: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Cadian-Defence-Force

Because preorders don't go up until tomorrow for the UK site.

New Zealand always gets their preorders first.

Any special Rules for them? Maybe the Sentinels become part of the platoons?

Hmm, a new formation. Maybe this one will be worth a damn *crosses fingers*

konst80hummel wrote:
Any special Rules for them? Maybe the Sentinels become part of the platoons?

We won't know until the book gets leaked!

I'm thinking that the Sentinels are separate in this case, but that they might grant Move Through Cover or something to the Infantry Platoon.

konst80hummel wrote:
Any special Rules for them?

Games Workshop wrote:Pushing ever forward, led by the watchful eyes of a reconnaissance Sentinel, the soldiers of the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon are as relentless as they are determined. Laying down a constant hail of withering fire as they move, this platoon scythes down rank upon rank of enemies - few targets can withstand the brunt of their assault for long.

I think I can guess one of their rules...

Games Workshop wrote:thirty-four models in total, for an awesome Astra Militarum strike force!

34 models? You and I have different definitions of the word "awe", GW.

Mallich wrote:

konst80hummel wrote:
Any special Rules for them?

Games Workshop wrote:Pushing ever forward, led by the watchful eyes of a reconnaissance Sentinel, the soldiers of the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon are as relentless as they are determined. Laying down a constant hail of withering fire as they move, this platoon scythes down rank upon rank of enemies - few targets can withstand the brunt of their assault for long.

I think I can guess one of their rules...

Games Workshop wrote:thirty-four models in total, for an awesome Astra Militarum strike force!

34 models? You and I have different definitions of the word "awe", GW.

GW and I have different definitions of "strike force". This thing will flop like a pancake.

Well, all we know is that it's a Formation and it mentions the Platoon "laying down a constant hail of withering fire as they move".
IF Montka is going to have rules updating AM? This might be our "basic" Formation here.

The descriptions of the various Kauyon Formations had an element of the rules to them(Optimised Stealth Group flatout namedropped "Wall of Mirrors"), so who knows how this could go in any regards?

I'm sure GW has thought of an excellent way to separate you from your wallets.

This better be good!

*grumpily shakes fist*

laying down ranks of enemies. Lasguns will be str 6 or something.

If it ends up just being relentless on guardsman squads and combined squads I'm going to laugh while crying.

"You too can move your guardsmen closer and closer into melee range while firing their flashlights!"

If that happens I'm putting away my Guard .

I would say that the guard need to pay less for close combat weapons. A company commander shouldn't pay the same amount of points for a power fist as a space marine. That commander won't survive combat to swing it once 9 out of 10 times.

Loon wrote:
I would say that the guard need to pay less for close combat weapons. A company commander shouldn't pay the same amount of points for a power fist as a space marine. That commander won't survive combat to swing it once 9 out of 10 times.

And when he does, he's only striking at S6.

Loon wrote:
I would say that the guard need to pay less for close combat weapons. A company commander shouldn't pay the same amount of points for a power fist as a space marine. That commander won't survive combat to swing it once 9 out of 10 times.

Unless we get some kind of special rule called "Not me! Take him first, take him first!" where the Commander can never be targeted until everyone else is dead.

Since they're about to release a new techpriest as well, does this mean they're getting close to a new codex?

Possibly, but it seems like that's just in connection to Warzone Mont'ka, and it looks like the Tech Priest is being released in a bundle with the Tank+Commander. I'd love a new book, but I'm not holding my breath.

 War Kitten wrote:
Possibly, but it seems like that's just in connection to Warzone Mont'ka, and it looks like the Tech Priest is being released in a bundle with the Tank+Commander. I'd love a new book, but I'm not holding my breath.

There's no "tank+commander".

It's just a Leman Russ Battle Tank boxed set with the Techpriest. POTENTIALLY with a "Squadron Command Frame".

 alasta wrote:
Since they're about to release a new techpriest as well, does this mean they're getting close to a new codex?

If it's anything like the Tau "update" codex, I hope not. IG really need and deserve an entire overhaul of their army design. A few tweaks and their decurion formations won't cut to the core issue with the dex and will likely leave the majority of the weak units in their current position with little change, I really can't see how they can do all the various units in the IG book justice.

At most I think they'll get a few formations, a special detachment to go with some of the potential updated models, similar to the formations they got from the Sanctus Reach campaign.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Possibly, but it seems like that's just in connection to Warzone Mont'ka, and it looks like the Tech Priest is being released in a bundle with the Tank+Commander. I'd love a new book, but I'm not holding my breath.

There's no "tank+commander".

It's just a Leman Russ Battle Tank boxed set with the Techpriest. POTENTIALLY with a "Squadron Command Frame".

I see. I heard wrong then. I apologize.

 War Kitten wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Possibly, but it seems like that's just in connection to Warzone Mont'ka, and it looks like the Tech Priest is being released in a bundle with the Tank+Commander. I'd love a new book, but I'm not holding my breath.

There's no "tank+commander".

It's just a Leman Russ Battle Tank boxed set with the Techpriest. POTENTIALLY with a "Squadron Command Frame".

I see. I heard wrong then. I apologize.

You didn't hear wrong, people just keep posting it wrong and it gets spread that way.

It's meant to be a Tank Commander. The model in the picture shown sticking out of the hatch? He's clearly commanding that tank!

BUT he's the basic "tank in chargey guy" that goes in the cupola.

 War Kitten wrote:
Guard Needs:
-Lumbering Behemoth back for the Russes
-Points drop on the Hellhound and it's variants
-Points drop on Ogryns/Bullgryns
-Regimental Doctrines
-Something to help out bog standard Guardsmen
-Not even going to start on Rough Riders

Other things I would add is
- Chimeras return to their old point cost.... plus a return to three firing out the turret
- Heavy Weapon squads are fixed and points reduced. Why you pay more for their base unit over guardmens is beyond me, especially when they die easier vs S6+ weapons, all for an extra 2.5 points. Reduce them to 30 points, and even then I would still say make them two separate models like they used to be. Hell you can force them to be in base contact or on the same base so all current models can still be used.
- Make Hydra's worth the points.... hell I wouldn't even mind a point hike so they can also shoot at ground units, similar real life AA can be used in a similar way quite successfully, why not the hydra?
- Return some of the older artillery units, give us some new ones (less rocket artillery please) and give us some cool artillery abilities too. Wyverns are fine as they are, but I find the rest are really lacklustre.