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If a player (likely a kid) brings an army with Carifexes allied with anything and everything he thinks is cool including Space Marine dreadnoughts, Eldar Wraithknights, Necron warriors... into one diverse crazy 1500/2000pt army would you agree to play against him?

There are severe problems with this in my opinion:

1) It makes the entire fluff and universe of the game (which is why I play this compared to games like Warmachine/Infinity with much cleaner balanced rule-sets) pointless. There is a reason why there is an ally chart. It breaks the story and the immersion for me. Never in a million years would Tyranids fight with anyone.

40k is about the fluff, first and foremost! Respect the fluff, respect the universe. This is the main draw of the game for me.

2) Balance. There is no CAD or force org chart he uses it is whatever goes. My armies are always fluffy and uses CAD so I would be at a disadvantage. Also GW designed CADs for a REASON and all their formations and everything they thought of goes out the window and is unused.

3) Tournaments do not allow unbound lists - I'm not a WAAC tournament player but there is a reason for this.

4) Punk kids need to learn to not clunk cool models and combine them into one crappy unfluffy army that goes against everything GW has developed over the past 25 years.

Unbound is for scrubs. Battle-forged 4 life.

I'd play him. I don't see the problem.

1) the fluff of 40k is terrible. I mean the general idea is fantastic, but have you read the books? Seven hells, it's poor. I'll play it as a game about moving plastic men around and not care about the fluff of the battle.

2) A guy bringing everything he thinks is cool is not gonna have an overpowered army. You wouldn't be at a disadvantage.
Not to mention that balance doesn't exist in 40k to begin with.

3) Because they are trying to create balance using other things they do not allow and unbound makes that more complex by several times again. But that's because of powergamers. Not your kid with his mix and matched models.

4) Maybe you need to learn something from the punk kids about just having fun?

 DorianGray wrote:


for me.

That about sums it up.

You do your thing, I'll do mine.

If they're my only available opponent for some time, and the person is otherwise pleasant to deal with, then sure.

If either of those conditions are false, I'd find someone else or not play.

No unbound.

No Unbound. At least one feth must be given to fluff.

There are degrees of Unbound IMO. It's not a game type that I'd expect to use myself, or to see in a more competitive gaming environment. That said there are cases that I'd happily play an Unbound list.

- If it's something fluffy, sure thing. First Companies, Swordwinds, Legions, Klans etc. If it's a deployment that definitely exists somewhere, it's probably fine.

- If it's funny. This is harder to define, but an example would be taking nothing but over-equipped Chapter Masters from every First Founding and running them as a supersquad deathstar of Stormshields and Relic Blades. Just something to entertain the both of us for an hour or two by it's ridiculousness.

- If the player is scrabbling for points. If they only have 2 small armies and want to play against a full-size, I really don't care if they're nailed together.

I'll probably agree but I won't enjoy it.

As long as they're cool to play with, definitely. Unbound isn't scary, when Decurion and Wraithknights are now completely legal

It depends. I like the fluff, but as a one-off-thing, I can do without it. If they started to do it regularly and tried to create fluff for it that was on par with CS Goto's "work", I would have to stop there.

Is it because of the fluff, or are you just being TFG and trying to justify being one, just remember that its a game of plastics soldiers and you shouldn't be a douche by limiting a list that contains the models that he likes as Games Workshop created Unbound in the first place. You could always try and help him make his list bound:

Necrons CAD
Cryptek
6 Necron Warriors Squads

Space Marine CAD
Master of the Forge
2 Scout Squads
6 Dreadnoughts

Eldar CAD
Farseer
2 Windrider Jetbike Squadrons
Wraith Knight

Tyranids CAD
Hive Tyrant
2 Ripper Squads
3 Carnifex Broods

If it is fun unbound such as ill take an army of Helbrutes and my opponent takes an army of dreadnoughts and we see who is the king of the walkers fine, but if he takes the opportunity to spam drop pods I would take up my models and play else where.

I think the intent behind the Unbound list needs to be taken into account, a few weeks ago at my FLGS me and several other guys only took Riptides (for me) Imperial Knights and Wraithknights and fought an equal number of points Tyranid Monstrous Creatures for a Pacific Rim style game. It was a lot of fun, not all Unbound armies are meant to be or designed to be uber powerful.

If it's just a "whatever" game with a kid who's just bought a smattering of everything, and I've got time to kill? Sure. Otherwise, I'd be very hesitant.

That said, I don't really find Unbound worse than anything else in terms of balance or fluff breaking ability. If I'm going to face Space Marine CAD/Canoptek Harvest/Eldar Ally list as "battleforged", with all sorts of crazy bonuses, well, what's Unbound going to do that's any worse?

I have no problem with an un-fluffy unbound, I play doubles a lot and I've seen tyranids/space wolves, necrons/grey knights, and play Orks/space marines and with a lot of people maximizing list anyway.

In the scenario you give, of course I would play him. As an adult I would take far greater pleasure in knowing I helped a young player enjoy the hobby and hopefully advance his knowledge and understanding of the rules. I mean really, what's the alternative? Going home and bragging about how I beat a kid, how sad is that?

It sounds to me like you yelled at a kid and are trying to make yourself feel better.

As for your points...

You say that the game is not balanced regardless in point 1, but in point 2 say that unbound ruins the game balance? What? Please, please, stop this self righteousness BS.

 DorianGray wrote:
If a player (likely a kid) Whatever made anyone under 18 fething Satan of the Hobby? brings an army with Carifexes allied with anything and everything he thinks is cool including Space Marine dreadnoughts, Eldar Wraithknights, Necron warriors... into one diverse crazy 1500/2000pt army would you agree to play against him? Same answer I give this any other time. Of course I would play him. I don't discriminate, and I could easily beat him with my own unbound list. Hell, I could beat him with a CAD.

There are severe problems with this in my opinion:

1) It makes the entire fluff and universe of the game (which is why I play this compared to games like Warmachine/Infinity with much cleaner balanced rule-sets) pointless. There is a reason why there is an ally chart. It breaks the story and the immersion for me. Never in a million years would Tyranids fight with anyone. Apart from the fact that every single faction has a method of directly taking control of a living creature. There's your fluff.

40k is about the fluff, first and foremost! Respect the fluff, respect the universe. This is the main draw of the game for me.

2) Balance. There is no CAD or force org chart he uses it is whatever goes. My armies are always fluffy and uses CAD so I would be at a disadvantage. Also GW designed CADs for a REASON and all their formations and everything they thought of goes out the window and is unused. "Balance"

3) Tournaments do not allow unbound lists - I'm not a WAAC tournament player but there is a reason for this. Tournament player =/= WAAC. And so what? I can build an unbound list that someone using a casual CAD could stomp. Just because I want to use ALL of my Battlesuits does not mean that I am a WAAC player.

4) Punk kids need to learn to not clunk cool models and combine them into one crappy unfluffy army that goes against everything GW has developed over the past 25 years.
Nothing I could possibly say to this would NOT get me banned, so just have this eye searing comment format instead.

Of course I would. Assuming the ridiculous prejudice of the OP holds true, I'd like the kid to encounter an inclusive, welcoming community, in the hopes that he eventually comes to love the game (and the associated fluff) as much as the rest of my friends.

If the person in question is new, I would welcome them and try to be inviting. (Which seems like the likely scenario here.) If they are an experienced player who wishes to run a list like this, that's fine too! I would love to get the chance to proxy some things and try a totally ridiculous list. Fifteen Solitaires or something silly like that.

I'm here to play a game and have fun. Not everyone enjoys the same type of army I do. If I wasn't willing to cope with that, I think it would be time for me to find a new hobby.

What YOU enjoy and YOUR reason to play is not the same as everyone else. Nobody owes you gak and not a single person has to accommodate you.

If you don't want to play them, don't. But nobody HAS to do anything.

What about the alternative option: play a smaller game where they don't have to use all those different factions and can play a normal army?

I'd play it I quite like to challenge myself and a game is a game

Also I'm an ork player if we win we win and if we lose we win because we've had a good scrap!

I'm with Blacksails, honestly.

Unbound doesn't give you a bunch of stuff to push your point limit above the maximum, so it's not the worst thing out there in terms of "balance" which seems to concern you a lot.

You lost me at un-fluffy...

To me, the reason why the 'kid' is playing an unbound list is unclear. If he is new, or don't have much model, or couldn't make is mind on which army he wants to play so he collected a lot of different model from different army, well I don't see a problem with him playing unbound.

I introduce 2-3 players to warhammer 40k since I started, and I never had many miniature. So when I was showing someone how to play, I had to use unbound list, even before they were created.

I mean, what's important for a new player: to learn how to list build following tournament rule, or to experience the epic universe of 40k while rolling dice to blast to pieces other models just to prove which HQ can smash the other faces in a duel! Yes the background of 40k is pretty awesome but the hobby is not just about that and list building.

 DorianGray wrote:
If a player (likely a kid) brings an army with Carifexes allied with anything and everything he thinks is cool including Space Marine dreadnoughts, Eldar Wraithknights, Necron warriors... into one diverse crazy 1500/2000pt army would you agree to play against him?

There are severe problems with this in my opinion:

1) It makes the entire fluff and universe of the game (which is why I play this compared to games like Warmachine/Infinity with much cleaner balanced rule-sets) pointless. There is a reason why there is an ally chart. It breaks the story and the immersion for me. Never in a million years would Tyranids fight with anyone.

40k is about the fluff, first and foremost! Respect the fluff, respect the universe. This is the main draw of the game for me.

2) Balance. There is no CAD or force org chart he uses it is whatever goes. My armies are always fluffy and uses CAD so I would be at a disadvantage. Also GW designed CADs for a REASON and all their formations and everything they thought of goes out the window and is unused.

3) Tournaments do not allow unbound lists - I'm not a WAAC tournament player but there is a reason for this.

4) Punk kids need to learn to not clunk cool models and combine them into one crappy unfluffy army that goes against everything GW has developed over the past 25 years.

If a kid brings that army they are new,
New players need encouragement not scorn,
Consider other people are not you,
Their differences a thing that can be borne.

Unbound has problems inescapable,
A list built of mixed dross is weak though,
Bound lists will often be more capable,
Spam lists are the reason tournaments say no.

Kids regardless of musical preference,
Who want to play toy soldiers imagine much,
Whilst you do not need to show them deference,
Their kind of fun is not incorrect as such.

Different people enjoy much different stuff,
Willing compromise just might be enough.

40k is all about the fluff and the fluff rape makes me sad, but that alone wouldn't make me say no. Though I'd make sure to be making lots of jokes about how ridiculous his army is.
The part were I'd say no to is that someone bringing that army is probably new and would more then double the time the game took looking through codexes trying to figure out what his 4+ factions do.
I've got no problem playing teaching games, but that would just be painful.

 DorianGray wrote:
If a player (likely a kid) brings an army with Carifexes allied with anything and everything he thinks is cool including Space Marine dreadnoughts, Eldar Wraithknights, Necron warriors... into one diverse crazy 1500/2000pt army would you agree to play against him?

Not likely to happen in my gaming circle, but if it did and the person bringing it could give a better reason than "Because all this stuff together is cool!!" then I'd let them play it. I didn't buy into 7th, but I thought that even unbound forces were still limited by the restrictions of the allies table, so all of these forces could not necessarily be in the same army anyway, but if there were this is a way it can make sense:

A force of ultramarine alien hunters were doing post invasion clean up duty and a scout patrol came in contact with a chaos ritual taking place that was using the 'nid invasion as a distraction and the vets get a brainy idea to herd some of the carnies they've been cleaning up right into the middle of the ritual to disrupt it. Meanwhile eldar and necron forces at the time were on the planet already heading for the ritual each to stop it for their own reasons because they realized that the stupid humans allowed themselves to be distracted by the tyranids. All those separate forces kind of come together in common goal for that brief moment and crush the forces of chaos. They most certainly are not battle brothers and even more certainly will not trust one another at all, but could all beat down a common chaos enemy in the right situation. It can work with the right thought and would make an interesting special scenario and could even be a multiplayer game with one player being the ultramarines and their herded carnies, another the eldar and a third the necrons with the final player being the chaos forces and the daemons their ritual has summoned to the planet.

It is all about the approach because in your situation you get angry that someone has "ruined the game with lumping all those wrong units together", but in my example you have the makings of an interesting and entertaining scenario on the table and if you only have 2 players, one of them gets to use a bunch of different units they don't normally get to put on the table. I consider that a win. Of course you miss this opportunity if you are too busy getting angry and upset that someone is playing the game wrong.

Yeah the CAD was designed to bring more balance to things, but now all the formations are gutting that limited bit of balance right out of the game anyway. Even within the CAD so many codex lists were unbalanced with each other, that you still weren't facing equal forces. May as well go along and have some fun.

Also tournament organizers are hardly a good measuring stick since they ban things to make their own lives easier and not because it is necessarily "Good for the game".

Skriker