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Gee Dubs just did the 3rd Edition and gave the Scouts back what they've been missing since.

Vanilla Marines have waited such boosts for YEARS which the new codex provides. Finally they're something else than Amazingly Average(TM). Stop whining.

(The autocannon option for scouts, however, is something I heavily doubt to make a comeback too even though it's my insane, impossible dream I cling on)

Marines, Chaos Marines, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters are BS4. Oh yeah, Skitarii now.

Orks are BS2

Guard, Tyranids, most Daemons and Chaos Engines, and Tau are BS3.

So almost half the factions are BS3 or less.

Scouts are noobs. Many of them have just learned that the right way to use a gun is to point the right hand toward the enemy and press the little thingy. They have been selected at 14 for their ability to beat to death other 14 years old boys with pointy sticks. They spent the next few years constantly under various medical operations. They are now sent to the field for the first times.
Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They dont learn to shoot in the Devastator Companies, they learn to shoot as a Scout, hence SNIPERS. Which they shouldn't even be if they are the newest least trained guys.

I always figured the rifles were just a way to let them feel like they were contributing while keeping the hell out of the way of the actual battle.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Scouts are noobs. Many of them have just learned that the right way to use a gun is to point the right hand toward the enemy and press the little thingy. They have been selected at 14 for their ability to beat to death other 14 years old boys with pointy sticks. They spent the next few years constantly under various medical operations. They are now sent to the field for the first times.
Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.

Twelve. :p They are selected at twelve years old.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Scouts are noobs. Many of them have just learned that the right way to use a gun is to point the right hand toward the enemy and press the little thingy. They have been selected at 14 for their ability to beat to death other 14 years old boys with pointy sticks. They spent the next few years constantly under various medical operations. They are now sent to the field for the first times.
Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.

When they are selected and how much training they go through depends on the chapter, some like the Red Scorpions select children the year they are born and train them their whole lives. Even those that recruit late will have varying training methods. The Scouts you see wont be 14 year old boys they just picked up, those are in Codex Chapters Neophytes, they become Scouts after receiving training and the implants other than the Black Carapace. We dont know how long he scout training is, but what we do know is that you're not a Scout for just two years before being shoved off into one of the main companies, you are there to learn everything, to be able to fight as a Marine should and you remain there until you have proven yourself and a slot opens up.

Now say that you are the newest Scout in the Company, unless you are really good or the Chapter suffers heavy losses you won't become a full Battle Brother anytime soon, those that have been there longer, have the most experience an have proven themselves will be selected. That's why I'd have them WS/BS4. Your average Scout will have seen more and done more in their life than an Imperial Guard Vet or even Storm Trooper in some cases.

Furyou Miko wrote:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They dont learn to shoot in the Devastator Companies, they learn to shoot as a Scout, hence SNIPERS. Which they shouldn't even be if they are the newest least trained guys.

I always figured the rifles were just a way to let them feel like they were contributing while keeping the hell out of the way of the actual battle.

Why would you want to keep the guys you are supposed to be teaching to fight out of battle? (In the context of how Chapters work) They are supposed to be learning through doing. Anyway giving them the Sniper Rifles wouldnt make sense unless they have gone through a lengthy training process to ensure the Scout is capable of wielding the weapon with the proper effect.

Twelve. :p They are selected at twelve years old.

They are selected when ever the Chapter gets around to selecting them between the time they reach puberty and when the male body ceases maturing. Most of the time it would be 12-14 but there will be variance, particularly when it comes to them saying they have fought wars (yes several) and in some cases have families.

I voted yes, here's why:

Scouts have all the implants other than the black carapace.
Scouts have had years of far more vigorous training than guardsmen or storm troopers.
Scouts are likely to have seen more combat than veteran guardsmen.
10 scouts are 50 points morr expensive than veterans(even if you take the +1t and +1s as 1point per model each, grenadiers doctrine, and then the +1 ws as 1ppm, and finally bolters over lasguns at 1ppm, then you get the same cost.

Veteran guardsmen should not have been able to out-shoot scouts, same for ratlings vs sniperscouts

If Recon Squads are/were 4s across the board, I don't see why Scout squads would be any different.

Anyways, in real life, you don't go into Recon to train how to be a soldier. You go into Recon because you are more skilled than the other soldiers. Not familiar enough with how GW fluffizes their Scouts, but it would be kind of dumb if they were "noobs" or raw recruits on their way to Power Armor.

Why would you want to keep the guys you are supposed to be teaching to fight out of battle? (In the context of how Chapters work) They are supposed to be learning through doing. Anyway giving them the Sniper Rifles wouldnt make sense unless they have gone through a lengthy training process to ensure the Scout is capable of wielding the weapon with the proper effect.

Are all fresh full brothers moved in to devastator squads, so they lack of expiriance costs their battlebrothers lifes . Would make sense that they want to keep less armored scouts just as far away as possible from actual fighting.

Makumba wrote:

Why would you want to keep the guys you are supposed to be teaching to fight out of battle? (In the context of how Chapters work) They are supposed to be learning through doing. Anyway giving them the Sniper Rifles wouldnt make sense unless they have gone through a lengthy training process to ensure the Scout is capable of wielding the weapon with the proper effect.

Are all fresh full brothers moved in to devastator squads, so they lack of expiriance costs their battlebrothers lifes . Would make sense that they want to keep less armored scouts just as far away as possible from actual fighting.

They are moved to the Devastator Squads to learn the correct use of Heavy Weapons and the correct deployment of them, not because they have a lack of experience that would get their Brothers killed. Just like they are then moved to the Assault Companies to learn the proper methods of Asssault and CQB.

A Scout's first job should be just that, to Scout, to observe the enemy so they may report to those on high troop movements, equipment ect. They are also there to learn about the enemies they will come to fight as well as engage them. From I think the past 3 codexs "...preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence - causing as much chaos and disruption as possible."

If you are sending men behind enemy lines you want, no NEED them to be well trained and know how to fight in case their mission goes awry. As you can see their mission is not to stay away from the actual fighting, but to go look for trouble behind enemy lines.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Scouts are noobs. Many of them have just learned that the right way to use a gun is to point the right hand toward the enemy and press the little thingy. They have been selected at 14 for their ability to beat to death other 14 years old boys with pointy sticks. They spent the next few years constantly under various medical operations. They are now sent to the field for the first times.
Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.

Scouts are still super-humans that have been genetically modified. The best of human soldiers are still just human.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Guardsmen are the best among the population of a planet, sent out after an extensive training. Catachan need to now how to fight against nightmarish animals just to survive. Cadians and Korpsers have been trained from early childhood to shoot guns.
WS3 BS3 for scouts.

If the High Lords actually got to pick who left and who stayed in PDF forces, I'm sure that'd be true. In reality, the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the local governor has plenty of options to ensure that the troops that stay on the planet are the best so the governor can protect his own ass if the planet is invaded. If I were a governor, I sure as gak wouldn't keep the crappy troops as my PDF- I'd send them off to die on some Emperor-forsaken world. You can bet that most Imperial governors are smart enough to see it that way.


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Alcibiades wrote:
Marines, Chaos Marines, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters are BS4. Oh yeah, Skitarii now.

Orks are BS2

Guard, Tyranids, most Daemons and Chaos Engines, and Tau are BS3.

So almost half the factions are BS3 or less.

Reread, this is, "Over half of the factions are BS4."

This even fails to take into account how much BS4 is in the Guard codex.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
When they are selected and how much training they go through depends on the chapter, some like the Red Scorpions select children the year they are born and train them their whole lives.

Most select them through an idiotic fight to the death or similar process.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Scouts you see wont be 14 year old boys they just picked up

Yeah, they had to spend a few years on an operation table before. I heard lying on the floor (Beds are for the weaks! Beds encourage sloth, sloth is heresy!) trying to recover from surgery was not the best way to earn experience and skill.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Scouts have had years of far more vigorous training than guardsmen or storm troopers.

Someone has not read about Stormtrooper training.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Scouts are still super-humans that have been genetically modified. The best of human soldiers are still just human.

I would take human elite over super-human noob anyday.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
If the High Lords actually got to pick who left and who stayed in PDF forces, I'm sure that'd be true. In reality, the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the local governor has plenty of options to ensure that the troops that stay on the planet are the best so the governor can protect his own ass if the planet is invaded.

The Imperium may be a bureaucratic nightmare, but trying to cheat on your tithes is at your own peril. Which would you prefer, peace of mind, or taking a huge risk for a little reward?
I am sure there are exception though. Just like there are regiments like the Chem Dogs. Give me 5 or 6 different Imperial Guard codex, like we have 5 or 6 marines codex, and I will be able to properly represent those deviations from the norm .
And then there are Stormtroopers/Scions, which are a huge deal above the rest. Those should certainly wipe their behinds with the scouts at a shooting contest. Or a bad-ass contest .

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

They are selected when ever the Chapter gets around to selecting them between the time they reach puberty and when the male body ceases maturing. Most of the time it would be 12-14 but there will be variance, particularly when it comes to them saying they have fought wars (yes several) and in some cases have families.

Implantation must start between 12 and 14 years of age, or it fails.

The only ones who have families or fight in wars are ones who, like the Fenrisians, induct ten-year-olds into war parties and expect a villager to be married by fourteen because if they don't start breeding as soon as they're biologically capable of it, they won't have enough warriors to survive the war in ten years time.

As always i think its GW trying to push more models, I have never really like scouts (the look and i hate painting faces) and i assume a lot of people don't field them either.
Generally GW buff the models that don't seem to be selling or played to get people to buy E.g tomb blades for necron decurion

Forget any fluff justification at the moment guys and lets try and explain again how it is fair for BA, DA and SW players game wise?

Poly Ranger wrote:
Forget any fluff justification at the moment guys and lets try and explain again how it is fair for BA, DA and SW players game wise?

We don't know that DA Scouts will not be WS/BS4. In fact I would be surprised if they were not.

SW already have it, and BA have so many other options that WS/BS3 on Scouts isn't going to hurt them too badly.

Yeah because paying 3 points more for something the exact same is completely fair isn't it?

Poly Ranger wrote:
Forget any fluff justification at the moment guys and lets try and explain again how it is fair for BA, DA and SW players game wise?

How is it fair that those people have an extra snowflake codex, you mean.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Forget any fluff justification at the moment guys and lets try and explain again how it is fair for BA, DA and SW players game wise?

We don't know that DA Scouts will not be WS/BS4. In fact I would be surprised if they were not.

SW already have it, and BA have so many other options that WS/BS3 on Scouts isn't going to hurt them too badly.

Are you kidding? We have 2 options for troops; tac marines and scouts. And our tac marines can't take grav cannons. Bs/ws3 scouts will hurt us massively in comparison to SM scouts just on power levels.

What do BA scouts get:
- Furious Charge

What do SM scouts get:
-BS4
-WS4
-Various chapter tactics
-Access to an incredibly cheap, fast, assault transport/gunboat.

For the same price.

And the reaction is that 'oh well, BA will be ok'. NO we won't. It is completely unbalanced in comparison and after having such a poor codex for years we are given 3 or 4 months before its made awful once again (not just by SMs). After paying more points for our troops for years we now get to pay the same but SM get inflated stats or a weapon that gives them a far higher damage output point for point.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Forget any fluff justification at the moment guys and lets try and explain again how it is fair for BA, DA and SW players game wise?

How is it fair that those people have an extra snowflake codex, you mean.

Yeh I suppose your right. The game would be much better if we took away the flavour and instead just made it red team, blue team and yellow team (not green team though as that is a secondary colour and much too flavourful).

I'm totally fine with the change, both fluff and crunch wise.

Fluffwise scouts are receiving the most vigorous training in the imperium (besides the super elite like grey knights), it makes sense that they should be able to shoot straighter than most guardsmen.
Some people are citing the fact that they are young and inexperienced. However, intensity of the training aside, how long does scout training last? Given that a SM is expected to live for several centuries it may be the case that scout training lasts for several years - enough time to learn to be better than the average guardsman, especially when you consider that when not fighting the SM have literally noting else to do except train. No guard duty, no policing, no humanitarian missions etc, all they have to do is train, and fight. A guardsman who has been on active duty for the same amount of time as a scout will have received far less weapons training and combat experience.

Crunchwise I don't think it is anything to worry about. It is not game changing in the slightest, and simply helps a unit with mediocre shooting ability do a little more damage. BS4 also means that scout snipers are less of a joke too.

Edit: On the topic of scouts, but without starting a new thread, does anyone know if the scout box comes with 5 bolters /shotguns, or do they always come with a heavy bolter and sergeant?
Just considering how easy it would be to get a scout force built up.

 Peregrine wrote:
no. Enough of this stat inflation where everyone gets to be BS/WS 4. Why even bother having BS stats when Tau and IG are the only armies with BS 3? Just make shooting a flat 3+ to hit for everyone and give orks a special rule that they only hit on 6s.

Don't forget Nids.

The fact that space marine scouts hit on threes against blood Angels scouts amuses me now.

 Purifier wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
I imagine they would have been at the range and in the sawdust pits fighting almost every day, all day from the time they start getting implants.

That's nice and all, but aren't the power armours supposed to augment you in some way? Because if you're trying to make fluff reasons for the rules here, then the power armour now is basically a heavier kevlar armour. It's not augmenting targeting or fighting prowess.

Well, I for one welcome our stat increase overlord and eagerly awaiting our lords giving all marines +1 to S and T. It makes sense, gameplay-wise, for scout to be BS4, since they had been the only ones in the army capable of taking sniper rifles. For them to be useful (given how few bodies they have in a squad) they needed to be more accurate to justify bringing them on the table.

On the other hand, at this juncture there's little point in running a Wolf Scout for me. As it'd be more economical to take ally detachments with sniper scouts and save points for something that punches harder. also, I smell a new SW codex looming with nothing but the cost of the Wolf Scouts dropped and +1 WS BS to the Blood Claws and the Skyclaws. ..Yeah.

Just had fun building my own Scouts not too long ago. My first non starter set Marine box!

Inside the Scout box you get 5 sets of bolters, BP ccws, and shotguns, plus one heavy bolter.

Lots of extra bits too. Spare knives, packs, ammo, grenades, kits... so I loaded ALL of them up on the Scout Sergeant for a goof!

I can't wait to see what kind of adventures befall my Scout company!

Poly Ranger wrote:
The game would be much better if we took away the flavour and instead just made it red team, blue team and yellow team (not green team though as that is a secondary colour and much too flavourful).

Have you heard about it? The game is not only about space marines! Shocking revelation, I know. What about we increase the flavor by adding more things that are not space marines of different color, but actual different, flavorful stuff, instead of focusing on making sure the red marines scouts are different from the blue marine scouts? Certainly, you said it yourself, having the red marine scouts and the blue marine scouts being different is insufferably unfair, so certainly you must be thrilled by a decision that would put all the color marines on the same footing.


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 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Fluffwise scouts are receiving the most vigorous training in the imperium (besides the super elite like grey knights)

Nope.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The game would be much better if we took away the flavour and instead just made it red team, blue team and yellow team (not green team though as that is a secondary colour and much too flavourful).

Have you heard about it? The game is not only about space marines! Shocking revelation, I know. What about we increase the flavor by adding more things that are not space marines of different color, but actual different, flavorful stuff, instead of focusing on making sure the red marines scouts are different from the blue marine scouts? Certainly, you said it yourself, having the red marine scouts and the blue marine scouts being different is insufferably unfair, so certainly you must be thrilled by a decision that would put all the color marines on the same footing.


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 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Fluffwise scouts are receiving the most vigorous training in the imperium (besides the super elite like grey knights)

Nope.

Tbf I do understand where you are coming from. However the play style of BA, SW and GK (not DA so much imo but others may disagree) are drastically different from normal SM. They also contain multiple units which are completely different. So whilst they *could* be rolled into the same dex, it would make it increadibly difficult to do so and would possibly invalidate many peoples playing collection.
IMO a WS grav biker army is completely different in play style, stats and look do a gold and black horde of the BA.
Also you talk about variety and adding further non-marine armies. I agree. But we don't add to that variety by taking away marine ones. The idea that marines make up half the avaliable armies is a fallacy. Have a look:

SM
GKs
BAs
DAs
SWs
CSMs


Orks
Tyranids
AM
MT
Deamons
R&Hs
Skittari
Mechanicum
Eldar
DE
Harlequins
Necrons
SoB
Tau
IKs

6/21 or 2/7.



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Oops. Forgot inquisition!


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6/22 or 3/11.

You forgot Legion of the Damned

Good catch. 7/23 then.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Fluffwise scouts are receiving the most vigorous training in the imperium (besides the super elite like grey knights)

Nope.

What a well thought out point.

Let me respond with one, you are wrong.

What a lovely discussion.

Unless you can say why you believe your ideas, your post adds nothing.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Certainly, you said it yourself, having the red marine scouts and the blue marine scouts being different is insufferably unfair, so certainly you must be thrilled by a decision that would put all the color marines on the same footing.

Agreed, I am all for WS/BS4 scouts for DA and BA too.

Would have preferred improvement to shotguns and snipers.

But all is good I guess