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2015/06/14 12:16:22
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Poly Ranger wrote: Tbf I do understand where you are coming from. However the play style of BA, SW and GK (not DA so much imo but others may disagree) are drastically different from normal SM.
Ah, let us be honest. The playstyle is going to change through each edition of the rules and the codecies to match the cheesiest thing. But every books except GK shares the tools to do the same stuff. Both have bikes, terminators, rhinos, assault units with jump packs, units full of heavy weapons, predator, land raider, … You can basically do the same builds with every book, it is just that some book will make some builds more powerful.
Poly Ranger wrote: They also contain multiple units which are completely different.
Give me a unique unit that is not “that unit, but made MOAR POWERFUL because in this chapter, they are MOAR UNIQUE!!!11", or a tank with a weapon swap that is unique for no good reason, or a flyer that is unique for no good reason, or a special character.
Poly Ranger wrote: So whilst they *could* be rolled into the same dex, it would make it increadibly difficult to do so and would possibly invalidate many peoples playing collection.
Nah, just play the elite unique stuff as the normal stuff, and allow the weapon swap on tanks to everybody.
Poly Ranger wrote: IMO a WS grav biker army is completely different in play style, stats and look do a gold and black horde of the BA.
Except you can get an army full of BA on bikes and you can get a white scar army with plenty of jump packs. It is the same units, except swapped around. It is the same thing. It is like saying a Tau army where firewarriors and kroots become elites while vespids and broadsides become troops, and you add in a few special rules like Rage on kroots and vespids, and bang! diversity. Nah ah, that is just more of the same.
Poly Ranger wrote: But we don't add to that variety by taking away marine ones. The idea that marines make up half the avaliable armies is a fallacy.
Sure you do. Marines may not make up half of the available army, but they take the lion's share of GW's efforts. You cannot compared full codicies to codices with just 1 or 2 units in them, that is just a fallacy. And you cannot put on the same level codices that get a new version with new models literally every edition, and codices that never got any printed books or new models for THE LAST 12 YEARS!
Big Blind Bill wrote: Fluffwise scouts are receiving the most vigorous training in the imperium (besides the super elite like grey knights)
Nope.
What a well thought out point.
Let me respond with one, you are wrong.
What a lovely discussion.
Unless you can say why you believe your ideas, your post adds nothing.
Stormtroopers, assassins, crusaders, Sisters, arguably Catachan, Cadian and Korpers have training that are at least as vigorous as scout training.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/14 12:17:34
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 12:27:26
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Sanguinary guard and death company are nothing like assault marines. They have jps. That is where it ends. You make Sanguinary Guard into AMs and they become nothing like what they are now. It would be like saying, count all orks as grots.
As well as those two:
Sanguinary priests are unique to BA.
Libby dreads are unique to BA.
Furioso dreads are unique to BA.
Overcharged engines are unique to BA.
Baal preds are unique to BA (although probably the least unique since they lost scout and became HS).
Sanguine psychic powers are unique to BA.
A ton of SCs are unique to BA.
And ALL of these completely change the avaliable playstyles of the army.
2015/06/14 13:12:20
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Poly Ranger wrote: Sanguinary guard and death company are nothing like assault marines. They have jps. That is where it ends. You make Sanguinary Guard into AMs and they become nothing like what they are now.
They are both assault marines but “MOAR POWERFUL” because BA whatever.
Though I agree vanguard vets (or was that the other guard vets) should be able to take jump pack. There you go, you have your elite assault troupes with jump pack now!
Poly Ranger wrote: Baal preds are unique to BA (although probably the least unique since they lost scout and became HS).
Swapping from one place to another on the FOC is NOT diversity. It is just swapping the same stuff around. And then it is just a different loadout, am I right?
Psychic powers? This things that changes literally every edition?
Ah! I am sure the warp is very different depending on which color is the armor of the guy using it. Certainly you need a RED armor to cast this spell!
Poly Ranger wrote: And ALL of these completely change the avaliable playstyles of the army.
No. Literally no. You will get slight variation in the power level of your elite troops with jump pack, but they will still be the same elite troups with jump pack. You will get variation on the power level of your guy giving defensive buff like FnP, but he will still be the guy buffing around. You will still play dreadnought, who will still be walker, with some who will still be specialized in close combat, even though their exact rules and power level will change. You will still get predators, that will still shoot at stuff, it is just that someone who painted their marines blue will also be able to use the same weapon loadout on their predators. And you will get new psychic powers replacing the old ones like every edition before. If new psychic powers breaks your playstyle, then your playstyle is broken every new edition…
What playstyle would you not be able to play with C:SM? And I mean playstyle. For instance, a full jump pack assault army is a playstyle. Having Sanguinary Guard with the exact same rules as before is not a playstyle.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 13:25:23
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
EmpNortonII wrote: Scouts are still super-humans that have been genetically modified. The best of human soldiers are still just human.
I would take human elite over super-human noob anyday.
EmpNortonII wrote: If the High Lords actually got to pick who left and who stayed in PDF forces, I'm sure that'd be true. In reality, the Imperium is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the local governor has plenty of options to ensure that the troops that stay on the planet are the best so the governor can protect his own ass if the planet is invaded.
The Imperium may be a bureaucratic nightmare, but trying to cheat on your tithes is at your own peril. Which would you prefer, peace of mind, or taking a huge risk for a little reward?
I am sure there are exception though. Just like there are regiments like the Chem Dogs. Give me 5 or 6 different Imperial Guard codex, like we have 5 or 6 marines codex, and I will be able to properly represent those deviations from the norm .
And then there are Stormtroopers/Scions, which are a huge deal above the rest. Those should certainly wipe their behinds with the scouts at a shooting contest. Or a bad-ass contest .
... and by the time a scout hits the field, he's likely had several years of training as a super-human.
feth, Guardians are reservists that get BS4. Why? feth if I know, but presumably it has a lot to do with being Eldar, since there are no more BS3 Eldar. Being superhuman goes a long, long way.
It's hardly cheating on your tithes to send the bodies you don't want on the planet to begin with. Besides, Guardsmen are there to die by the millions fighting on pieces of land. The IoM literally could not care less about the lives of Guardsmen. Odds are they'll all be dead before anyone notices they're gone.
... and considering how often people cheat on their taxes, steal, speed in traffic, etc, it is human nature to see what you can get away with... and in the IoM, you can get away with a LOT.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/14 13:25:56
Poly Ranger wrote: Sanguinary guard and death company are nothing like assault marines. They have jps. That is where it ends. You make Sanguinary Guard into AMs and they become nothing like what they are now.
They are both assault marines but “MOAR POWERFUL” because BA whatever.
Though I agree vanguard vets (or was that the other guard vets) should be able to take jump pack. There you go, you have your elite assault troupes with jump pack now!
Poly Ranger wrote: Baal preds are unique to BA (although probably the least unique since they lost scout and became HS).
Swapping from one place to another on the FOC is NOT diversity. It is just swapping the same stuff around. And then it is just a different loadout, am I right?
Psychic powers? This things that changes literally every edition?
Ah! I am sure the warp is very different depending on which color is the armor of the guy using it. Certainly you need a RED armor to cast this spell!
Poly Ranger wrote: And ALL of these completely change the avaliable playstyles of the army.
No. Literally no. You will get slight variation in the power level of your elite troops with jump pack, but they will still be the same elite troups with jump pack. You will get variation on the power level of your guy giving defensive buff like FnP, but he will still be the guy buffing around. You will still play dreadnought, who will still be walker, with some who will still be specialized in close combat, even though their exact rules and power level will change. You will still get predators, that will still shoot at stuff, it is just that someone who painted their marines blue will also be able to use the same weapon loadout on their predators. And you will get new psychic powers replacing the old ones like every edition before. If new psychic powers breaks your playstyle, then your playstyle is broken every new edition…
What playstyle would you not be able to play with C:SM? And I mean playstyle. For instance, a full jump pack assault army is a playstyle. Having Sanguinary Guard with the exact same rules as before is not a playstyle.
By your definition, if stats do not matter to a playstyle then ork stormboyz is the same as playing with assault marines. Necron warrior squads are the same as tac marines, just different stats.
If stats don't effect the play style at all, why don't we have just one army book for EVERYONE?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, why don't we just have 11 units alltogether in the game?
EmpNortonII wrote: feth, Guardians are reservists that get BS4. Why? feth if I know, but presumably it has a lot to do with being Eldar, since there are no more BS3 Eldar.
Eldar kind of have a thing with being focused and learning, that goes way deeper than the psycho-indoctrination marines get. Certainly the marine psyche is much, much closer to the human psyche than the eldar psyche.
EmpNortonII wrote: Besides, Guardsmen are there to die by the millions fighting on pieces of land. The IoM literally could not care less about the lives of Guardsmen. Odds are they'll all be dead before anyone notices they're gone.
Omniscient narrator has always says the best get to be in the Imperial Guard, and the not-as-good in the PDF. And the IoM cares a lot about taxes.
EmpNortonII wrote: ... and considering how often people cheat on their taxes, steal, speed in traffic, etc, it is human nature to see what you can get away with...
Have you ever seen your neighbor's home with him and his whole family inside locked up and set on fire, because he has a speeding ticket? No? Imagine living in a word where not only this happens regularly, but sometime you will get no penalty for a speeding ticket, and at other time this will happen to you because the radar that measured your speed was defective, and you have no recourse or warning. Welcome to the life of an Imperial Governor. Feel like driving a bit faster than the limit, just to check what you can get away with?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/14 13:56:41
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 13:57:02
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Poly Ranger wrote: By your definition, if stats do not matter to a playstyle then ork stormboyz is the same as playing with assault marines.
Nope. The stormboy is a relatively cheap, not so resilient model with an unreliable jump pack. He is not as good as a normal marine in a jet pack (ASM) that is in turn not as good as a veteran in a jump pack (vanguard with jump pack/sanguinary guard).
What matters is that the vanguard or sanguinary guard is more powerful and more expensive pointwise than the regular jump ASM, which is in turn more powerful and expensive pointwise as the stormboy. That way you go by the fluff and all. But the exact specifics of how the vanguard/sanguinary guard are more powerful? Details. This is stuff that will not come naturally from the miniature or the fluff, and is quite arbitrary anyway.
Poly Ranger wrote: Necron warrior squads are the same as tac marines, just different stats.
Nope, necron warriors have an identity as almost soulless automaton with next to none individuality that are able to withstand terrible punishment and still repair themselves. This is represented by the rules, making them have no unit leader, no special weapons, and the reanimation protocols. What sets them apart from marine is the fluff, which is in turn translated into rules. Sanguinary guard are literally just one kind of elite marines with jump pack, something that could happen in any other chapter that is not Blood Angels.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 14:09:27
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
In his boots, I would make a bigger fuss of your average nose-picking Shoota Boy being a more skillful melee combatant than the supposedly elite Battle Sisters.
...Why the feth do Orks have so high WS again?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/14 14:10:12
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
2015/06/14 14:09:31
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Ashiraya wrote: The SOB elite troops are now on par with the most junior of Astartes in melee skill.
The SOB most junior troops are on par with the most elite astartes troops in term of shooting skills .
What are you even talking about by the way? My SOB melee specialists are WS5 I6 and will literally kill any marine troops without a 2+ save.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/14 14:12:35
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 14:18:05
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Celestians? Never heard of it. There are no models for them on GW's website. There never was. My close combat troops look like this : They are WS4 for those with shields and BS5 for those with two swords. They will charge for 4 attacks each, at I6, BS5, S4, AP3. Oh, and they will reroll to hit, and reroll to wound too. Fancy letting them charge your chaos marines? I am sure they can deal with those silly berserkers just fine.
Ashiraya wrote: Edit: my post count tells me I am being devilish right now.
My post count got me out of the Not-A-Sororitas-rank hell, at least! Bow before the Pious Palatine! Next will be Canoness?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/14 14:47:38
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 14:56:19
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Ashiraya wrote: So you want a melee, eh? Come fight my Gal Vorbak and see what happens. >:]
Not overly afraid. What are your rules?
Alos, why the random spoiler?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 15:20:07
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Big Blind Bill wrote: Storm troopets no, assassins yes, crusaders only maybe, sisters no, any IG no.
Storm troopers yes, assassins yes, death cultists yes, crusaders yes, sisters yes, some IG maybe.
Big Blind Bill wrote: These guys are training to be humanity's greatest soldiers. Any other standard imperial unit will recieve less training.
Nah, that is just hyperbolic stuff that get thrown around all the time. The thing is, they say the same about other units too.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 15:49:56
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
[edit]Why am I even arguing with someone who pretends scouts have more rigorous training than custodes!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/14 15:52:05
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 17:03:12
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
I also think Stormtroopers get the same amount of training. Does my obsession with them have limits?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 17:18:12
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Nah, that is just hyperbolic stuff that get thrown around all the time. The thing is, they say the same about other units too.
In this case no, no one other than space marines/grey knights/custodes/primarchs are described as being mankind's greatest warriors. More holy (SoB), better equipped (mechanicus), better tanks (IG), but nowhere can you find it said of another imperial faction that they are better and more well trained warriors than the space marines. (expect assassins, but they are a bit of a special case).
Space marines exist solely to act as the Imperium's shock troops and will have literally nothing else to do besides train and kill heretics.
Other units in the imperial will be as skilled as scouts, through experience, training or a combination of both. However, it is logical that the genetically enhanced superhumans will get the best training to go along with the best armour and weapons available..
Why invest so many resources on making and equipping a space marine, if you are going to give them half arsed training.
Want to look at the entry for crusaders
What are we looking for exactly? It says they are very devout... not that they get a lot of training. Their stats in the game don't support the idea that they get lots of training either.
I know scouts are only space marine recruits, but the level and intensity of their training and combat missions mean that I am perfectly happy to see them have a stat boost.
2015/06/14 17:34:13
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I also think Stormtroopers get the same amount of training. Does my obsession with them have limits?
No, seeing as how you also got upset at Assault Marines getting Eviscerators.
What is the link between eviscerators and stormtroopers?
Big Blind Bill wrote: In this case no, no one other than space marines/grey knights/custodes/primarchs are described as being mankind's greatest warriors.
So we already got 4 different things all described as the bestest of the best. This is kind of telling, is it not?
Big Blind Bill wrote: More holy (SoB), better equipped (mechanicus), better tanks (IG), but nowhere can you find it said of another imperial faction that they are better and more well trained warriors than the space marines. (expect assassins, but they are a bit of a special case).
You quoted a bunch already. Assasins, Custodes and Grey Knights are better trained. Sisters and Scions are trained just as well, even though they do lack the implants.
Big Blind Bill wrote: Space marines exist solely to act as the Imperium's shock troops and will have literally nothing else to do besides train and kill heretics.
Do you realize this is exactly the same for Scions and Sisters? Literally? There is not a single day when they could train and do not do it. Not a single one.
So, moot point.
Big Blind Bill wrote: However, it is logical that the genetically enhanced superhumans will get the best training to go along with the best armour and weapons available..
Why invest so many resources on making and equipping a space marine, if you are going to give them half arsed training.
It is pretty logical to give the best training to scions, which are literally the most elite men of the Imperial Guard.
It is pretty logical to give the best training to sisters.
What are we looking for exactly? It says they are very devout... not that they get a lot of training.
You have not read it, have you?
It has always said they dedicate their life to martial perfection. And if you want to go by stats, look at the DCA stats. Unaugmented human. Pwn any scoot, and would even wipe the floor with vanguard.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I know scouts are only space marine recruits, but the level and intensity of their training and combat missions mean that I am perfectly happy to see them have a stat boost.
I guess it depends if we are talking about a scout that is just entering the scouts, or one that is one mission away from leaving the scouts. Those that leave are obviously BS4. Those that just enters seems better fitted for BS3.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/14 17:50:34
Subject: Re:How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
The 4 I mentioned as humanity's best are all space marines of some form or another. So no, it is not telling.
Sisters of battle do not exclusively act as shock troops. They are the only standing force that the ecclesiarchy is allowed to maintain. Therefore they are much more likely to be a garrisoning force or standing army rather than fulfilling the same function as space marines.
It is pretty logical to give the best training to scions, which are literally the most elite men of the Imperial Guard
They are given the best training, for their position. However, this position is below that of a space marine. Space marines have drill sergeants who have centuries of combat experience, scions do not.
I read what is written in codex: Inquisition. Nothing is said. But let us suppose it is, martial perfection and military training are not the same thing.
Going off the game stats, death cult assassins are certainly better trained than scouts. Crazy stats.
2015/06/14 17:58:23
Subject: Re:How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
Big Blind Bill wrote: The 4 I mentioned as humanity's best are all space marines of some form or another.
No. Custodes are not, neither are primarchs. Assassins are not either. All those better than marines.
Big Blind Bill wrote: Sisters of battle do not exclusively act as shock troops. They are the only standing force that the ecclesiarchy is allowed to maintain. Therefore they are much more likely to be a garrisoning force or standing army rather than fulfilling the same function as space marines.
So what? You have shock troops expert at standing siege .
Big Blind Bill wrote: They are given the best training, for their position. However, this position is below that of a space marine. Space marines have drill sergeants who have centuries of combat experience, scions do not.
First, how do you know that? Certainly you are aware of juvenat that means a scion drill sergeant can live for many centuries.
Second, what kind of things have you not yet understood after the first 50 years of war, that you will suddenly realize after the 51th? There is just a limit to how good you can become with experience. At one point, you reach the limit, and you barely become better anymore.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/06/16 06:09:14
Subject: How do you feel about WS4 BS 4 Space Marine Scouts?
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