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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The link is between SoB and eviscerators. Do the math.

The link is stupid then. Because I am just saying the most elite humans of the Imperium, like Scions (forget about Sisters if you have a problem with them), have better training than scouts. They start learning to shoot guns way earlier, and do not waste time trying to recover from extremely disrupting surgery.

Scions are still less well trained than marines though.

Marines are more elite than any other standard imperial force.

Scions might have received more total training than scouts, but that is only due to the fact that a scion could have been serving a for years, whereas a scout is a new recruit.

The level and intensity of scout training is above and beyond that of a scion.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

No. Custodes are not, neither are primarchs. Assassins are not either. All those better than marines.

Grey Knights are a subtype of Marines, so that they are better says nothing.

No Primarchs fight for the Imperium today.

Custodes are not better warriors than Space Marines. Better duelists, better guards, but they are not trained in battlefield tactics or working as a team.

Similar is the Assassin, who is faster and more skilled, but who is an assassin, not a soldier. They are neither equipped, trained nor modified for war, just assassination. Besides, an Astartes can well defeat one 1v1 - in Soul Hunter, a Night Lords Apothecary took one down alone. She dodged his shots and charged, so he spat acid in her face. She staggered back and dodged another salvo, so he screamed loud enough to burst her eardrums. Blinded and deafened, she was easy prey.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Custodes are not better warriors than Space Marines. Better duelists, better guards, but they are not trained in battlefield tactics or working as a team.

The Custodes are teached by none other than the Emperor himself. Are we going to take the words of a salty Word Bearer for hard facts now?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Similar is the Assassin, who is faster and more skilled, but who is an assassin, not a soldier. They are neither equipped, trained nor modified for war, just assassination. Besides, an Astartes can well defeat one 1v1 - in Soul Hunter, a Night Lords Apothecary took one down alone. She dodged his shots and charged, so he spat acid in her face. She staggered back and dodged another salvo, so he screamed loud enough to burst her eardrums. Blinded and deafened, she was easy prey.

Yes, and every other Astartes is obvioulsy on Talos level right? You're being disingenuous here Ash, it's quite obvious to anyone, who has read the Night Lord series that Talos' psychic forsight and massive plot armor won him that fight against the assassin, whom I might add, was described in the book as being the better combatant of the two.

We know for a fact that Assassin commonly tears Astartes a new one, either directly on indirectly. If you find that hard to belive, then look up the "The Beheading" incident, where a hundred Eversor assassins butchered an entire space marine strike force.

Ashi's answer to that one is that the strike force was probably only fifty or so Marines. heh.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Besides, an Astartes can well defeat one 1v1

And a Commissar can well defeat an Astartes 1v1. Therefore, a Comissar can well defeat an Assassin 1v1. Since an Assassin can defeat a primarch 1v1 (M'shen), it follows that a Comissar can well defeat a Primarch 1v1. Since a Primarch can well defeat the Emperor 1v1 (yeah, Horus vs Emperor + Sanguinus was 2v1 and yet Horus managed to wound to death the Emperor, so 1v1 it would have been a victory for Horus), therefore a Commissar can defeat the Emperor 1v1. And Scions get better training than Commissars. Thanks to Ashiaraya logic, a Scion is better than the Emperor.


Or maybe, that Astartes you were talking about was the protagonist of the book, with tons of plot armor and stuff, but Assassins are way better than marines .


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 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Scions are still less well trained than marines though.

They are trained as well as marines. They usually have more experience than scouts. They lack the genetic enhancement.
Why would you give scions lesser training? Unlike physical resources, like those necessary for the implants and power armors of astartes, training is not in limited supply.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Marines are more elite than any other standard imperial force.

This has no meaning. Plain and simple. How do you define “elite” here? How do you compare if a Titanicus legion is more or less elite than a space marine chapter?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The level and intensity of scout training is above and beyond that of a scion.

No. The scout does a little more thing in training that are related to his implants, and that is all there is to it.

Edit: Nvm

No. The scout does a little more thing in training that are related to his implants, and that is all there is to it.

Lol. Right. So they spend years selecting, teaching and modifying a candidate to become a marine, and then forget to train him to do his job.

This has no meaning. Plain and simple. How do you define “elite” here?

It is very simple. Space marines are the elite of mankind's armies. They are above sisters of battle, they are above scions. This is a fact.

Scions in terms of being effective shock troops are basically a poor man's space marine. They are the best of the imperial guard, but that is still far behind a marine.

Their very existence in imperial forces is only due to the fact that there are not enough marines to go around, so they have to make do with what they have.

Except that the Astartes Scout has only been in training for two years by the time he's eighteen, what with spending the other sixteen years laid up on the operating table or recovery room, or as a child.

By the time he or she is eighteen years old, the Scion/Sororita has been in military training for at least six years. Normally closer to fifteen years.

Astartes don't even select recruits until the recruit is eleven. The Progena are selected for their role by the time they're six.

Obviously the only way to end this discussion is to concede that Space Marine Scouts should have the following statline:

WS2 BS2 S2 T2

And IG vets, Scions, and Sisters should all be:

WS5 BS5 S4 T4

to represent their vastly superior training.

Because that's the only thing that statlines represent.

Training.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Lol. Right. So they spend years selecting, teaching and modifying a candidate to become a marine, and then forget to train him to do his job.

They do not. They just start later. Scions start training in the Scola Progenium.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Space marines are the elite of mankind's armies. They are above sisters of battle, they are above scions. This is a fact.

Space marines are slightly better due to the implants, and, in the case of scions, wargear. But in terms of training, they are not better. And in term of experience, the average scions beats the average scout hands down, and is definitely beaten by the average sternguard.

What, you are so much down your mary sue rabbit hole that you cannot accept the fact your rookies are rookies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:
Obviously the only way to end this discussion is to concede that Space Marine Scouts should have the following statline:

WS2 BS2 S2 T2

And IG vets, Scions, and Sisters should all be:

WS5 BS5 S4 T4

What is wrong about about WS3/4 BS4 S3 T3 and WS3 BS3 S4 T4?

Seems fine to me. Seemed fine to GW too for quite a long time actually.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Except that the Astartes Scout has only been in training for two years by the time he's eighteen, what with spending the other sixteen years laid up on the operating table or recovery room, or as a child.

By the time he or she is eighteen years old, the Scion/Sororita has been in military training for at least six years. Normally closer to fifteen years.

Astartes don't even select recruits until the recruit is eleven. The Progena are selected for their role by the time they're six.

No, Neophytes undergo training even when they're undergoing the surgeries, because feth bedside manner. For example there's a hilarious scene in Damnation Crusade where a Neophyte is shut in a room with a nutjob failed aspirant who has degenerated into an animal. The Neophyte knows very well that thanks to recent surgeries, if he takes a punch, he dies.

And Chapters wonder why they have such high mortality rates with recruits.

Even if that is true, you're still looking at eight years training compared to fifteen.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Scions are still less well trained than marines though.

That's debatable. Scions/Stormtroopers are trained to insane levels from very early ages, often earlier than Space Marines, with training that's grueling and brutal. They don't have the genetic enhancement however.

 Ashiraya wrote:


Custodes are not better warriors than Space Marines. Better duelists, better guards, but they are not trained in battlefield tactics or working as a team.

By many definitions, that *would* make them better Warriors, it would make them inferior *soldiers*.

Custodes are not intended to fight the same types of battles as Space Marines. They're a "watcher of the watchers", they're not a conventional combat force, but they are absolutely trained in tactics and working as a team. In every instance of them fighting Space Marines that I can recall, they typically wipe the floor with the Space Marines. IIRC a squad of Custodes slays a company of Thousand Sons without a casualty in the Horus Heresy Visions book. But they're even more absurdly limited in numbers than Space Marines are, and weren't, even in the Great Crusade, sent out to fight anything except by the Emperor's side in close physical proximity.

They have a different role and different capabilities, but man for man and squad for squad, they're obviously superior to Space Marines. Given that they don't take the field in the 41st millenium unless it's in direct defense of the Imperial Palace however, they're largely irrelevant.

Similar is the Assassin, who is faster and more skilled, but who is an assassin, not a soldier. They are neither equipped, trained nor modified for war, just assassination. Besides, an Astartes can well defeat one 1v1 - in Soul Hunter, a Night Lords Apothecary took one down alone. She dodged his shots and charged, so he spat acid in her face. She staggered back and dodged another salvo, so he screamed loud enough to burst her eardrums. Blinded and deafened, she was easy prey.

At the hands of a prophetic, warp-touched Space Marine with visions of the future, and an augmented screaming ability, who was able to match blades with the Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar. This was no ordinary Space Marine by any stretch of the imagination.

Likewise, in the book "Iron Warrior", when the Ultramarines discover that an Assassin is aboard their station, they react with almost terror at the presence and capability of such a monster, equating the Assassin (IIRC an Eversor) with something akin to a WMD, even though it's on their side, they're clearly uncomfortable with its existence, even in the face of direct attack by the forces of Chaos.


Assassins are a strategic asset only deployable on the orders of the High Lords of Terra, clearly typically capable of engaging Space Marines on a 1v1 basis and typically coming out on top, with equal or greater genetic manipulation and enhancement.

Still on my phone until Monday, so this will be painful. But let's see what I can do.

Vaktathi wrote:By many definitions, that *would* make them better Warriors, it would make them inferior *soldiers*.

Custodes are not intended to fight the same types of battles as Space Marines. They're a "watcher of the watchers", they're not a conventional combat force, but they are absolutely trained in tactics and working as a team. In every instance of them fighting Space Marines that I can recall, they typically wipe the floor with the Space Marines. IIRC a squad of Custodes slays a company of Thousand Sons without a casualty in the Horus Heresy Visions book. But they're even more absurdly limited in numbers than Space Marines are, and weren't, even in the Great Crusade, sent out to fight anything except by the Emperor's side in close physical proximity.

They have a different role and different capabilities, but man for man and squad for squad, they're obviously superior to Space Marines. Given that they don't take the field in the 41st millenium unless it's in direct defense of the Imperial Palace however, they're largely irrelevant.

Custodes are a... Difficult case. Much like Titans, they are better fighters than Astartes, but because they never leave the palace I am not sure if they qualify for 'foremost defenders of the imperium' that SM are titled in BL, in the rulebooks, in FW's books and site, etc.

Vaktathi wrote:At the hands of a prophetic, warp-touched Space Marine with visions of the future, and an augmented screaming ability, who was able to match blades with the Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar. This was no ordinary Space Marine by any stretch of the imagination.

Likewise, in the book "Iron Warrior", when the Ultramarines discover that an Assassin is aboard their station, they react with almost terror at the presence and capability of such a monster, equating the Assassin (IIRC an Eversor) with something akin to a WMD, even though it's on their side, they're clearly uncomfortable with its existence, even in the face of direct attack by the forces of Chaos.


Assassins are a strategic asset only deployable on the orders of the High Lords of Terra, clearly typically capable of engaging Space Marines on a 1v1 basis and typically coming out on top, with equal or greater genetic manipulation and enhancement.

Mind you, he got rekt badly by Jain Zar, and he fought the Assassin centuries before fighting the Phoenix Lord. He also never used his prophetic abilities for actual combat.

How old is Iron Warrior and who wrote it? Times change, and if it's by Goto or something I'll be more sceptical

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Or maybe, that Astartes you were talking about was the protagonist of the book, with tons of plot armor and stuff, but Assassins are way better than marines

The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.

Furyou Miko wrote:Ashi's answer to that one is that the strike force was probably only fifty or so Marines. heh.

Plausible. The numbers were never given.

Redcruisair wrote:
The Custodes are teached by none other than the Emperor himself. Are we going to take the words of a salty Word Bearer for hard facts now?

But what did he train them at? They are better swordsmen and guards, for sure, but that alone won't make you the best warrior on the battlefield.

Yes, and every other Astartes is obvioulsy on Talos level right? You're being disingenuous here Ash, it's quite obvious to anyone, who has read the Night Lord series that Talos' psychic forsight and massive plot armor won him that fight against the assassin, whom I might add, was described in the book as being the better combatant of the two.

I explained above, but

1. He can't use his prophetic abilities for actual combat. It's vague visions of the future.

2. Talos has plot armour, for sure (they ambushed a BA squad who totally forgot to look up...) but not in that fight. His victory was logical. The Assassin would have won a fencing match, but there's more to fighting than fencing, which the Space Marine exploited to win.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.

Have you read the scene where Cain pwns some Khorne berserker?

You did not mention which kind of assassin it was. An Eversor would have ignored the acid and killed the marine anyway. A Vindicare would not have charged, just killed him from far away. A Callidus would have killed him from behind without him even knowing about it. So I guess she was a Culexus somehow fighting a non-psyker, or what?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Still on my phone until Monday, so this will be painful. But let's see what I can do.

Vaktathi wrote:By many definitions, that *would* make them better Warriors, it would make them inferior *soldiers*.

Custodes are not intended to fight the same types of battles as Space Marines. They're a "watcher of the watchers", they're not a conventional combat force, but they are absolutely trained in tactics and working as a team. In every instance of them fighting Space Marines that I can recall, they typically wipe the floor with the Space Marines. IIRC a squad of Custodes slays a company of Thousand Sons without a casualty in the Horus Heresy Visions book. But they're even more absurdly limited in numbers than Space Marines are, and weren't, even in the Great Crusade, sent out to fight anything except by the Emperor's side in close physical proximity.

They have a different role and different capabilities, but man for man and squad for squad, they're obviously superior to Space Marines. Given that they don't take the field in the 41st millenium unless it's in direct defense of the Imperial Palace however, they're largely irrelevant.

Custodes are a... Difficult case. Much like Titans, they are better fighters than Astartes, but because they never leave the palace I am not sure if they qualify for 'foremost defenders of the imperium' that SM are titled in BL, in the rulebooks, in FW's books and site, etc.

Yeah, they're not really something relevant in game terms as they have no representation at all.

Mind you, he got rekt badly by Jain Zar, and he fought the Assassin centuries before fighting the Phoenix Lord. He also never used his prophetic abilities for actual combat.

To him, the time difference was only about a century IIRC and about the only thing that could be pointed to that would be a qualitative improvement in his fighting capability was the acquisition of Aurm. He did get wrecked by Jain Zar, but did manage to inflict significant harm on her. Talos could not in any way be considered a typical marine. He was always clearly something "special", capable of matching blades with at least some degree of ability against characters which have always consistently been portrayed as vastly more capable than a typical Space Marine. Even though Kurze allowed himself to be killed, that was not known by anyone prior to his actual death, and it was very clearly felt that an Assassin like M'Shen possessed the capability to at least potentially slay the Primarch on the assumption that he would resist, which would indicate that everyone assumed the that such an assassin would have a combat capability far in excess of that of a typical Space Marine.

M'shen's death also felt rather, forced. An assassin has an unreal physical resiliency, for an assassin that's capable of undergoing dramatic bodily form changes, breaking bonds of flesh, bone and nervous system through "sheer willpower" as the dataslate defines it, acid being spit in her face seems somewhat trivial, and there's a reason Assassins are W3 beyond simple game mechanics, they're *tough*.

How old is Iron Warrior and who wrote it? Times change, and if it's by Goto or something I'll be more sceptical

It's part of the Honsou storyline, it was a limited print run in 2010, written by Graham McNeill.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.

Have you read the scene where Cain pwns some Khorne berserker?

One I discard because I find it significantly more implausible.

I am aware you don't agree on that, which is your prerogative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Even though Kurze allowed himself to be killed, that was not known by anyone prior to his actual death, and it was very clearly felt that an Assassin like M'Shen possessed the capability to at least potentially slay the Primarch on the assumption that he would resist, which would indicate that everyone assumed the that such an assassin would have a combat capability far in excess of that of a typical Space Marine.

Not known by anyone beforehand? But he told his entire Legion to stand down, let him be killed, and let M'shen escape afterward!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Even though Kurze allowed himself to be killed, that was not known by anyone prior to his actual death, and it was very clearly felt that an Assassin like M'Shen possessed the capability to at least potentially slay the Primarch on the assumption that he would resist, which would indicate that everyone assumed the that such an assassin would have a combat capability far in excess of that of a typical Space Marine.

Not known by anyone beforehand? But he told his entire Legion to stand down, let him be killed, and let M'shen escape afterward!

Not known by the Imperial forces or the Assassin. They clearly felt this individual was capable of at least potentially slaying a Primarch unwilling to die.

Edit: actually, consider me out of the debate until I get home on Monday. Assembling proper arguments on the phone takes millennia.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.

Have you read the scene where Cain pwns some Khorne berserker?

You did not mention which kind of assassin it was. An Eversor would have ignored the acid and killed the marine anyway. A Vindicare would not have charged, just killed him from far away. A Callidus would have killed him from behind without him even knowing about it. So I guess she was a Culexus somehow fighting a non-psyker, or what?

You...... don't know who M'shen was?

She was a Callidus, and no, Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion. Polymorphing does nothing for you when the enemy can sense your heartbeat and thus blow your cover, or simply murder anything the Callidus might disguise herself as. M'shen was doomed the second she set down on Tsagualsa. The only reason why she nearly escaped was thanks to the Night Lords trying to loot their own Primarch and then the later arrival of the Eldar.

Also, Talos' prophecies didn't factor into the fight with M'shen. He only gains shaky looks into the future that while more accurate than the average Chaos Sorcerer, are more like the enemy's plans for deployments than any Jedi-style precognition in a fight. He just knew that he was going to hunt down and kill M'shen, not where she was going to swing her sword.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The way he defeated the assassin seemed rather logical and did not smell of plot armour. Have you read the scene? It is well written.

Have you read the scene where Cain pwns some Khorne berserker?

You did not mention which kind of assassin it was. An Eversor would have ignored the acid and killed the marine anyway. A Vindicare would not have charged, just killed him from far away. A Callidus would have killed him from behind without him even knowing about it. So I guess she was a Culexus somehow fighting a non-psyker, or what?

You...... don't know who M'shen was?

She was a Callidus, and no, Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion. Polymorphing does nothing for you when the enemy can sense your heartbeat and thus blow your cover, or simply murder anything the Callidus might disguise herself as. M'shen was doomed the second she set down on Tsagualsa. The only reason why she nearly escaped was thanks to the Night Lords trying to loot their own Primarch and then the later arrival of the Eldar.

Well, a Calldus isn't going to fight through a Legion of Astartes, but given that they've had Callidus assassins successfully impersonate things like Genestealers and other alien races, and twist and contort their body into all sorts of unnatural forms and get into all sorts of otherwise unreachable places, and still nearly instantly shift into fighting form, the idea that a Space Marine could simply sense her heartbeat and instantly murder her is a bit far fetched.

The Callidus who impersonated a genestealer had to be surgically modified to do so and was rendered incapable of impersonating anything else afterwards.

 Ashiraya wrote:
One I discard because I find it significantly more implausible.

Have you read it?
I find it more plausible than yours.

 Wyzilla wrote:
You...... don't know who M'shen was?

I know about her what I can find in GW studio materials. I had no idea about her fight against Mr Gary Stu.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion.

Indeed. However, if their cover is blown and they are surrounded by one marine rather than a legion, it means that this marine is going to become their new cover very soon!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

What is wrong about about WS3/4 BS4 S3 T3 and WS3 BS3 S4 T4?

Seems fine to me. Seemed fine to GW too for quite a long time actually.

I've always thought Scouts should be WS4 BS4 S3 T3 because they're not in power armor. I've also always thought Terminators ought to be WS4 BS4 S5 T5.

If I recall correctly, Scouts had the same stats as Marines (aside from saving throw and leadership) for many, many editions in the past. This is simply a return to that form.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
One I discard because I find it significantly more implausible.

Have you read it?
I find it more plausible than yours.

 Wyzilla wrote:
You...... don't know who M'shen was?

I know about her what I can find in GW studio materials. I had no idea about her fight against Mr Gary Stu.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion.

Indeed. However, if their cover is blown and they are surrounded by one marine rather than a legion, it means that this marine is going to become their new cover very soon!

Callidus can't take Astartes as a disguise, they lack the black carapace to make the armor move with any grace, not to mention they literally couldn't fit inside unless they spontaneously generated free mass.

You also might want to actually bother reading the Night Lords Omnibus before continuing, because it's incredibly obvious you know nothing on the subject you speak of. M'shen was running like a scared cat to get to her ship and escape, Talos was hot on her heels all along and ambushing her at several points because he knew the layout of the fortress- she didn't.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
One I discard because I find it significantly more implausible.

Have you read it?
I find it more plausible than yours.

 Wyzilla wrote:
You...... don't know who M'shen was?

I know about her what I can find in GW studio materials. I had no idea about her fight against Mr Gary Stu.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Callidus Assassins are pretty much screwed if their cover is blown and they're surrounded by something like a whole bloody Legion.

Indeed. However, if their cover is blown and they are surrounded by one marine rather than a legion, it means that this marine is going to become their new cover very soon!

Callidus can't take Astartes as a disguise, they lack the black carapace to make the armor move with any grace,

They've been described as having about the nearest closest equivalent

" These implants consist of flex-cartilage and hardened synthskin, similar to that used in the Black Carapace gene-seed organ of the Space Marines. "

not to mention they literally couldn't fit inside unless they spontaneously generated free mass.

In the real world? Probably. In the 40k universe? The Callidus Assassin's have portrayed large-ish beings before. They may not necessarily need to imitate exactly the large mass, just certain parts to move "well enough" to look like they wear the armor correctly for a very short time. Hardly the most egregious violation of "real world" mechanics in the 40k universe.

 j31c3n wrote:
I've always thought Scouts should be WS4 BS4 S3 T3 because they're not in power armor.

The S3 T3 is not the power armor, else Sisters would be WS3 BS4 S4 T4.

 j31c3n wrote:
I've also always thought Terminators ought to be WS4 BS4 S5 T5.

Well, now you get Centurions.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Callidus can't take Astartes as a disguise, they lack the black carapace to make the armor move with any grace, not to mention they literally couldn't fit inside unless they spontaneously generated free mass.

If a Callidus can pass for an ork, they can pass for a marine with no trouble.

There is nothing at all in the list of implants given to marines that would result in them having the superspeed and superintelligence that people are ascribing to them.

The super-intelligence is inferred from the processing ability needed to handle perfect recall and the additional sensory input provided by the poorly-defined ocular enhancements the Occulobe prepares the body for, the Omophagea, the Lyman's Ear, and the Neuroglottis.

Lexicanum's entire section on the mental upgrades is pure fanon, but it is, for the most part, somewhat logical fanon.