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Lance845 wrote:


The datasheet for the formation tells you to bring a single spyder. That single spyder is a unit composed of a single model. No additional models can be added to that unit because the formation specifies a single model.

You are literally making the rule in red up. Cite page and paragraph for this rule.

The Army Entry List for the Canoptek Spyder on the other hand has the option to add additional spyders so there is a rule in place for all to see for adding additional spyders.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

A single spyder is 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder'.

A single spyder cannot be fielded as anything but a unit of spyders.

If you think a single spyder is something different than a unit then explain how you shoot at whatever that something is.

Okay so now that we are in agreement that we have 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder' . . .

On the Army Entry List GW gives me permission to add additional spyders.

I add 2 spyders to the Canoptek Harvest formation because the rules allow me to.

What rule did I break?

Adaptive Subroutines.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
A single spyder is 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder'.

A single spyder cannot be fielded as anything but a unit of spyders.

If you think a single spyder is something different than a unit then explain how you shoot at whatever that something is.

Okay so now that we are in agreement that we have 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder' . . .

On the Army Entry List GW gives me permission to add additional spyders.

I add 2 spyders to the Canoptek Harvest formation because the rules allow me to.

What rule did I break?

Because the datasheet for the formation does not tell you to bring 1 Spyder unit. Which would then allow you to boost said unit to the maximum the unit is allowed to bring. It tells you to bring 1 spyder.

Again, living artillery node.

1 exocrine

3 biovore

1 warrior brood.

The 3 biovore is the minimum/maximum number of biovore I can bring. The warrior brood starts with 3 warriors and I can increase the number of warriors if I wanted to. Why? Because the datasheet tells me to bring the unit, not a set number of the model.

Repeat in summary.

The datasheet for the formation tells you to bring a single spyder. That single spyder is a unit composed of a single model. No additional models can be added to that unit because the formation specifies a single model.

The Army Entry List gives me permission to add additional spyders and no where am I restricted from accessing that option. The formation has "no restrictions." What rule prevents me from accessing the option to add additional spyders. Cite page and paragraph please.

pg 2. rising leviathan 2. When talking about how they write out formations.

Anything in the list entry that allows you to modify the model the formation is allowing you to bring. Sure. Go nuts. But you cannot bring more models. Because the formation does not tell you to bring the unit. It tells you to bring 1 spyder.

Same with my biovores. If it told me to bring 1 biovore brood with a minimum of 1 biovore then I could add 2 more. But it doesn't. It specifies the Model/s in my formation.

Lance845 wrote:


MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.

The formation rules make it a unit. If it's not a unit, then you cannot shoot at it.

Also, the Army List Entry has rules for adding additional models. What rule restricts me from adding additional models?

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.

The formation rules make it a unit. If it's not a unit, then you cannot shoot at it.

Also, the Army List Entry has rules for adding additional models. What rule restricts me from adding additional models?

Because it doesn't tell you to bring the unit.

Again. It tells you to bring 1 spyder. That the formation consists of 1 spyder. Yes. That spyder is a unit. But the formation does not include multiple spyders. It includes 1.

You can modify THAT spyder as per the rules. But you cannot add more.

Lance845 wrote:


MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.

That's better, where is that?

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.

That's better, where is that?

pg 2 rising leviathan 2 dataslate.

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.

The formation rules make it a unit. If it's not a unit, then you cannot shoot at it.

Also, the Army List Entry has rules for adding additional models. What rule restricts me from adding additional models?

Because it doesn't tell you to bring the unit.

Again. It tells you to bring 1 spyder. That the formation consists of 1 spyder. Yes. That spyder is a unit. But the formation does not include multiple spyders. It includes 1.

You can modify THAT spyder as per the rules. But you cannot add more.

You are literally making the rule in red up. There is an option on the Army List Entry to add additional spyders. So I have clear and unequivocal permission to add additional spyders.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.

The formation rules make it a unit. If it's not a unit, then you cannot shoot at it.

Also, the Army List Entry has rules for adding additional models. What rule restricts me from adding additional models?

Because it doesn't tell you to bring the unit.

Again. It tells you to bring 1 spyder. That the formation consists of 1 spyder. Yes. That spyder is a unit. But the formation does not include multiple spyders. It includes 1.

You can modify THAT spyder as per the rules. But you cannot add more.

You are literally making the rule in red up. There is an option on the Army List Entry to add additional spyders. So I have clear and unequivocal permission to add additional spyders.

No, you dont.

You have permission to take 1 spyder

Add more and you now have a unit of spyders, not 1 spyder. By the formation restrictions you no longer have the 1 spyder entry and therefore you're not running the formation.

You do not have permission to field mutiple spyders, you have the requirement to field a single spyder.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.

The formation rules make it a unit. If it's not a unit, then you cannot shoot at it.

Also, the Army List Entry has rules for adding additional models. What rule restricts me from adding additional models?

Because it doesn't tell you to bring the unit.

Again. It tells you to bring 1 spyder. That the formation consists of 1 spyder. Yes. That spyder is a unit. But the formation does not include multiple spyders. It includes 1.

You can modify THAT spyder as per the rules. But you cannot add more.

You are literally making the rule in red up. There is an option on the Army List Entry to add additional spyders. So I have clear and unequivocal permission to add additional spyders.

Show me where, on the formation, it says for you to bring a unit of spyders and I will agree with you. But until then, there is a precedence set by any number of formations before hand with the same kind of wording.

When the number of models is restricted, it specifies the model, not the unit. When the unit can come with number increases if you want to/can pay for them, then the formation lists the unit.

I bring 3 biovore. That doesn't mean those 3 biovore can be 3 separate units with 1-3 biovore each. It means I have 3 and I can put those 3 into any unit configuration I want.

The same you you literally made up a rule to determine which Spyder is "the Spyder" for Adaptive Subroutines?

You may or may not have permission (not going to ague that), but more Spyders break Adaptive Subroutines.

 Melcavuk wrote:

No, you dont.

You have permission to take 1 spyder

Add more and you now have a unit of spyders, not 1 spyder. By the formation restrictions you no longer have the 1 spyder entry and therefore you're not running the formation.

You do not have permission to field mutiple spyders, you have the requirement to field a single spyder.

You are literally making up rules. The Army List Entry clearly indicates that I can add additional spyders to the unit of 1 spyder in the formation. I have clear chain of permission to add spyders just as easily as I can add a Ghost Ark to the unit of warriors in the Reclamation Legion.

Show me a rule that restricts me from accessing the options on the Army List Entry.

If you want more spyders take them. As a separate unit occupying a different slot for another detachment (including another formation) so long as you meet the legal requirements to do so.

Lance845 wrote:

Show me where, on the formation, it says for you to bring a unit of spyders and I will agree with you. But until then, there is a precedence set by any number of formations before hand with the same kind of wording.

When the number of models is restricted, it specifies the model, not the unit. When the unit can come with number increases if you want to/can pay for them, then the formation lists the unit.

I bring 3 biovore. That doesn't mean those 3 biovore can be 3 separate units with 1-3 biovore each. It means I have 3 and I can put those 3 into any unit configuration I want.

If you are going to bring up examples from other contexts then you will need to post all the rules for them.

col_impact wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:

No, you dont.

You have permission to take 1 spyder

Add more and you now have a unit of spyders, not 1 spyder. By the formation restrictions you no longer have the 1 spyder entry and therefore you're not running the formation.

You do not have permission to field mutiple spyders, you have the requirement to field a single spyder.

You are literally making up rules. The Army List Entry clearly indicates that I can add additional spyders to the unit of 1 spyder in the formation. I have clear chain of permission to add spyders just as easily as I can add a Ghost Ark to the unit of warriors in the Reclamation Legion.

Show me a rule that restricts me from accessing the options on the Army List Entry.

The formation does not allow you to bring the whole unit. It allows you to bring a specific number of models. THATS the rule that restricts you.

Lance845 wrote:
If you want more spyders take them. As a separate unit occupying a different slot for another detachment (including another formation) so long as you meet the legal requirements to do so.

The "options" give me clear and unequivocal permission to add more spyders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:

No, you dont.

You have permission to take 1 spyder

Add more and you now have a unit of spyders, not 1 spyder. By the formation restrictions you no longer have the 1 spyder entry and therefore you're not running the formation.

You do not have permission to field mutiple spyders, you have the requirement to field a single spyder.

You are literally making up rules. The Army List Entry clearly indicates that I can add additional spyders to the unit of 1 spyder in the formation. I have clear chain of permission to add spyders just as easily as I can add a Ghost Ark to the unit of warriors in the Reclamation Legion.

Show me a rule that restricts me from accessing the options on the Army List Entry.

The formation does not allow you to bring the whole unit. It allows you to bring a specific number of models. THATS the rule that restricts you.

The 1 canoptek spyder is a unit, or are you saying otherwise?

Tyranid Warrior Brood is the name of a unit. Biovore Brood is the name of a unit. Biovore is the name of a model.

I can bring 3 biovore. No specification on how they are arranged unit wise. So thats my choice. But the restriction is right there. 3 biovore. Not 6, not 9, not 2. 3.

The warriors start as a unit as a group of 3. I can increase their number as per normal.

Pretty clear there. It lists 3 units. You have a unit of 1 exocrine. A unit of 3 Biovores. And a unit of 1 Tyrannid Warrior Brood.

Since the max size of the unit of Biovores is 3, you cannot add any models to that unit.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
If you want more spyders take them. As a separate unit occupying a different slot for another detachment (including another formation) so long as you meet the legal requirements to do so.

The "options" give me clear and unequivocal permission to add more spyders.

But the formation allows you to take 1.

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
If you want more spyders take them. As a separate unit occupying a different slot for another detachment (including another formation) so long as you meet the legal requirements to do so.

The "options" give me clear and unequivocal permission to add more spyders.

But the formation allows you to take 1.

The rules in the Army Entry List allow me to add more if I want. Permission is clearly granted. You are failing to find a restriction on a clear chain of permission to add additional spyders.

This is the wording you get when taking a unit tells you it has to be in a certain configuration with a a certain number of models. It's part of the restriction. 1 tyrant guard brood. The tyrant guard HAVE to be 3.

Again, you are not told to bring the unit. You are told to bring 1 spyder.

I am not told to bring 1 biovore brood with 3 biovores in it. I am told to bring 3 biovore. Their unit configuration is my choice.

YOU are told to bring 1 spyder. Your unit configuration for that 1 spyder is your choice. The only choice you have. It by itself.

The formation specifies model. Just like my biovores do. I have to bring 3 biovores. That is the only restriction I have. I could not take them as 3 separate units and then, because their army list entry allows it, up each unit to 3 bringing 9 biovores. No. None. The formation says I bring 3. Their unit make up and such is whatever, but it has to be 3. You have to bring 1 spyder. Thats what the formation allows. 1 Model called a spyder.

Lance845 wrote:


YOU are told to bring 1 spyder. Your unit configuration for that 1 spyder is your choice. The only choice you have. It by itself.

You continue to make up rules. Mark your comments HYWPI. They are not RAW.

You continue to fail to find a rule restricting me from simply adding additional spyders via the options. I am in no way restricted from accessing those options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:

I have to bring 3 biovores. That is the only restriction I have. I could not take them as 3 separate units and then, because their army list entry allows it, up each unit to 3 bringing 9 biovores. No. None. The formation says I bring 3. Their unit make up and such is whatever, but it has to be 3. You have to bring 1 spyder. Thats what the formation allows. 1 Model called a spyder.

The formation lists specifically a grouping of 3 units. One is the exocrine. One is the biovores. One is the brood. You are not allowed to break up the Biovores.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


YOU are told to bring 1 spyder. Your unit configuration for that 1 spyder is your choice. The only choice you have. It by itself.

You continue to make up rules. Mark your comment HYWPI. They are not RAW.

You continue to fail to find a rule restricting me from simply adding additional spyders via the options. I am in no way restricted from accessing those options.

I am not making up a rule. They are written differently. I could not bring 3 biovore broods with 1-3 biovore each. I do not have to bring 1 biovore brood with 3 biovore in it. I get 3 biovore. Your entry is written the same way. You get 1 spyder. The precedent is and has been for a long time now, set by the other publications with similar entries. Your refusal to read is your problem. You can try to cheat all you want. I feel bad for any sucker that lets you get away with it.

Lance is correct.

By your own surmation you are told to bring a unit of 1 spyder

If you add a spyder you now have a unit of 2 spyders

Now reference your formation, you no longer have a unit of 1 spyder, therefore you no longer have a valid formation.

Now if it listed 1 UNIT of Spyders the number of models in the unit would be irrelevant, as it is you no longer have a formation if you add more spyders.


You are no more justified in adding another spyder than you are in adding a doomsday ark.

col_impact wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:

I have to bring 3 biovores. That is the only restriction I have. I could not take them as 3 separate units and then, because their army list entry allows it, up each unit to 3 bringing 9 biovores. No. None. The formation says I bring 3. Their unit make up and such is whatever, but it has to be 3. You have to bring 1 spyder. Thats what the formation allows. 1 Model called a spyder.

The formation lists specifically a grouping of 3 units. One is the exocrine. One is the biovores. One is the brood. You are not allowed to break up the Biovores.

False. If I had to bring a biovore brood with 3 biovores it would be written the same way as the tyrant guard. 1 tyrant guard brood. Restrictions: The tyrant guard brood must have 3 models.

It's not written that way, so I don't have to. I get 3 biovore models. Nothing specifies how I have to configure their unit/s

 Melcavuk wrote:


You are no more justified in adding another spyder than you are in adding a doomsday ark.

I am just as justified as adding a particle beamer to the spyder or adding a Ghost Ark to unit of warriors in the Reclamation Legion.

The permission to do these things is clearly and unequivocally on the Army List Entry and you have failed to find a rule that restricts me from accessing the option to add additional spyders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:

I have to bring 3 biovores. That is the only restriction I have. I could not take them as 3 separate units and then, because their army list entry allows it, up each unit to 3 bringing 9 biovores. No. None. The formation says I bring 3. Their unit make up and such is whatever, but it has to be 3. You have to bring 1 spyder. Thats what the formation allows. 1 Model called a spyder.

The formation lists specifically a grouping of 3 units. One is the exocrine. One is the biovores. One is the brood. You are not allowed to break up the Biovores.

False. If I had to bring a biovore brood with 3 biovores it would be written the same way as the tyrant guard. 1 tyrant guard brood. Restrictions: The tyrant guard brood must have 3 models.

It's not written that way, so I don't have to. I get 3 biovore models. Nothing specifies how I have to configure their unit/s

The dataslate itself specifically lists off the three units. Just read the dataslate. The 3 bullet points are obviously the 3 separate units, per English.

No, I have shown the rule. You need a unit of 1 spyder. A unit of 2 spyders is not a unit of 1 spyder. You do not have permission to take a unit of variable size, you have permission to take a unit of 1. A unit of 2 isnt a unit of 1, anymore than a doomsday ark is a spyder.

A unit of 1 spyders with a particle beamer is still a unit of 1 spyders.

A unit of 2 spyders has ceased to be a unit of 1 spyders.

 Melcavuk wrote:
No, I have shown the rule. You need a unit of 1 spyder. A unit of 2 spyders is not a unit of 1 spyder. You do not have permission to take a unit of variable size, you have permission to take a unit of 1. A unit of 2 isnt a unit of 1, anymore than a doomsday ark is a spyder.

A unit of 1 spyders with a particle beamer is still a unit of 1 spyders.

A unit of 2 spyders has ceased to be a unit of 1 spyders.

You have not shown any rule. The rule, if there were one, would likely appear in the Restrictions box and likely say "Restriction: The unit of 1 canoptek spyder is restricted to 1 model."

However, the restrictions box actually reads "none" so I can freely access all of the spyder's options, which includes adding additional spyders.

col_impact wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:


You are no more justified in adding another spyder than you are in adding a doomsday ark.

I am just as justified as adding a particle beamer to the spyder or adding a Ghost Ark to unit of warriors in the Reclamation Legion.

The permission to do these things is clearly and unequivocally on the Army List Entry and you have failed to find a rule that restricts me from accessing the option to add additional spyders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:

I have to bring 3 biovores. That is the only restriction I have. I could not take them as 3 separate units and then, because their army list entry allows it, up each unit to 3 bringing 9 biovores. No. None. The formation says I bring 3. Their unit make up and such is whatever, but it has to be 3. You have to bring 1 spyder. Thats what the formation allows. 1 Model called a spyder.

The formation lists specifically a grouping of 3 units. One is the exocrine. One is the biovores. One is the brood. You are not allowed to break up the Biovores.

False. If I had to bring a biovore brood with 3 biovores it would be written the same way as the tyrant guard. 1 tyrant guard brood. Restrictions: The tyrant guard brood must have 3 models.

It's not written that way, so I don't have to. I get 3 biovore models. Nothing specifies how I have to configure their unit/s

The dataslate itself specifically lists off the three units. Just read the dataslate. The 3 bullet points are obviously the 3 separate units, per English.

Please go read the tyrant node to see how you are wrong.

A biovore brood in the army list is called a biovore brood. A biovore brood is 1 biovore and I can add up to 2 more biovore for points.

The formation does not tell me to bring a biovore brood with 3 models. It tells me to bring 3 biovore.

Similarly.



Each endless swarm does not have a separate bullet point. You bring 3 endless swarms.

This is the format they write these in.

if it lists model, you bring the specified number of models.

If it lists unit, you bring the specified number of units.

If the units or models have restrictions beyond their specified numbers you can find those in the restrictions section.

They do not have to tell you you cannot add spyders to the spyder unit because they never told you you could bring a spyder unit. They told you the number of models you can bring.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


YOU are told to bring 1 spyder. Your unit configuration for that 1 spyder is your choice. The only choice you have. It by itself.

You continue to make up rules. Mark your comments HYWPI. They are not RAW.

You continue to fail to find a rule restricting me from simply adding additional spyders via the options. I am in no way restricted from accessing those options.

So when you make up rules about how to define "the Spyder" when multiples are taken, it doesn't need to be marked as HYWPI and should be recognised as RAW?
The hypocrisy!