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No, because the formation requirements specifies a 1 Tomb Spyder, which in itself is specific. Not one unit of variable size, 1 Tomb Spyder

Again, 2 is not 1, 6 is not 1, an orange is not an apple.

Specific overrides generic.

.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


YOU are told to bring 1 spyder. Your unit configuration for that 1 spyder is your choice. The only choice you have. It by itself.

You continue to make up rules. Mark your comments HYWPI. They are not RAW.

You continue to fail to find a rule restricting me from simply adding additional spyders via the options. I am in no way restricted from accessing those options.

So when you make up rules about how to define "the Spyder" when multiples are taken, it doesn't need to be marked as HYWPI and should be recognised as RAW?
The hypocrisy!

I did not make up any rule about how to define "the spyder" when multiples are taken.

I simply follow the rules provided me and add additional spyders because the ability to do so is right there on the Army List Entry and there are no restrictions on accessing that option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melcavuk wrote:
No, because the formation requirements specifies a 1 Tomb Spyder, which in itself is specific. Not one unit of variable size, 1 Tomb Spyder

Again, 2 is not 1, 6 is not 1, an orange is not an apple.

Specific overrides generic.

.

Nothing overrides or restricts the option to add additional spyders per the Army List Entry.

col_impact wrote:


Nothing overrides or restricts the option to add additional spyders per the Army List Entry.

The formation does by specifying the number of models.

OK

This comes down to:

Is a unit of 2 Tomb Spyders a unit of 1 Tomb Spyder?

Can you reconcile the fact that the unit of 2 isnt a unit of 1?

Otherwise, no matter how much you debate, you have not fullfilled the base requirement for the formation, If at the end of your adding up you do not have a Unit of 1 Tomb Spyder you do not have a formation.

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Nothing overrides or restricts the option to add additional spyders per the Army List Entry.

The formation does by specifying the number of models.

Cite page and paragraph for the rule.


The rule which gives me permission to add additional spyders is right there on the Army List Entry in plain sight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melcavuk wrote:
OK

This comes down to:

Is a unit of 2 Tomb Spyders a unit of 1 Tomb Spyder?

Can you reconcile the fact that the unit of 2 isnt a unit of 1?

Otherwise, no matter how much you debate, you have not fullfilled the base requirement for the formation, If at the end of your adding up you do not have a Unit of 1 Tomb Spyder you do not have a formation.

You have not reconciled the fact that the rules give me permission to add additional spyders to the one spyder.

No, they dont.

Had your formation needed one UNIT (READ THIS WORD) of Spyders then yes, variabe length as dictated by its army is entry.

You have permission to field ONE (READ THIS WORD) Spyder, singular.

You do not have a permission to field a unit of variable size

You have specific permission to field a unit of 1.

Now prove your unit of two is a unit of a single Spyder. Otherwise again, you're just unbound. If your opponent looks at your army list and you arent matching the formation requirements you're unbound. (or CAD if meeting requirements there)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What you seem unable to grasp is the different between a formation needing:

One Tactical Squad - wherein you can take all the upgrades, variable size, dedicated transport etc

Or a unit of ONE Tomb Spyder - wherein it must still be a unit of one to quality.

 Melcavuk wrote:
No, they dont.

Had your formation needed one UNIT (READ THIS WORD) of Spyders then yes, variabe length as dictated by its army is entry.

You have permission to field ONE (READ THIS WORD) Spyder, singular.

You do not have a permission to field a unit of variable size

You have specific permission to field a unit of 1.

Now prove your unit of two is a unit of a single Spyder. Otherwise again, you're just unbound. If your opponent looks at your army list and you arent matching the formation requirements you're unbound. (or CAD if meeting requirements there)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What you seem unable to grasp is the different between a formation needing:

One Tactical Squad - wherein you can take all the upgrades, variable size, dedicated transport etc

Or a unit of ONE Tomb Spyder - wherein it must still be a unit of one to quality.

This is all your HYWPI reasoning.

But RAW there is an option on the Army List Entry to add additional spyders to the unit of 1 Canoptek Spyder on the Canoptek Harvest formation and no rule is restricting access to that option.

No, RAW you need a unit of 1 Tomb Spyder.

Now if you want to nicely ask your opponent if he'll let you field multiple, because clearly necrons need the help because GW just wont cut them a break, then that is ultimately down to you.

However AS WRITTEN you must include a unit of ONE SPYDER.

And at this stage I'm calling it there. This debate is going no place useful.

ok. I will spell it all out in one post.

pg 2 rising leviathan II dataslate.



Specifically the part where it mentions that formations will list models, vehicles, or units.

Now in your book you have something in your army list entry called.. Tomb Spyder Swarm? Correct me if I am wrong but that is what it is called. Below that it will say something like ..

"A Tomb Spyder Swarm consists of a single Tomb Spyder."

Which means the model itself is called a "Tomb Spyder" Tomb Spyder Swarm = unit. Tomb Spyder = model. Similarly Biovore Brood = unit. Tyrant Guard Brood = unit. Biovore = model. Tyrant Guard = Model.

Ok.



This tells me to bring 3 biovore models with no restrictions as to how I can set up their unit/units. Because the formation does not tell me to bring a brood it, by the nature of what it is telling me to bring, restricts the number of models in the formation. 3 biovore. Not 3 biovore broods. Not 1 biovore brood with 3 biovore in it.

If it wanted me to have 1 biovore brood with 3 in it it would be written like the tyrant guard here.



That 3 Biovore does not mean 1 unit of biovore with 3 in it because they list collections of the same thing together under the same bullet point like they do with endless swarms here.



Each of those endless swarms can be configured separately with everything that endless swarms allow/restrict on each individual endless swarm. So long as the number of endless swarms is not more or less then 3 I have met the requirements of the formation.

Each biovore (if they had options) would be allowed all the options they get individually or in their unit IF I chose to configure them together as unit/s. Again, nothing specifies how I bring 3 biovore, just that the number of biovore I bring is 3.

Now your formation.

Does it tell you to bring 1 tomb spyder swarm?

No?

O, okay. Does it says bring 1 tomb spyder? Yes?

Great. You get 1 tomb spyder model in the formation. Because that is what the formation tells you to bring. The number of spyders is 1. You will not continue beyond 1 to 2 or from 2 to 3 because the number of spyders is 1. 4 is out of the question. 1 is the number of spyders you get and the number of spyders you get is 1.

Your spyder can be configured any way that A Tomb Spyder can be configured. A Tomb Spyder. Not a Tomb Spyder Swarm. If you were told to bring a Tomb Spyder Swarm then yes, you could bring 2 extra Tomb Spyders. But Tomb Spyders cannot purchase Tomb Spyders. A Tomb Spyder Swarm can.

See the difference?

col_impact wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


YOU are told to bring 1 spyder. Your unit configuration for that 1 spyder is your choice. The only choice you have. It by itself.

You continue to make up rules. Mark your comments HYWPI. They are not RAW.

You continue to fail to find a rule restricting me from simply adding additional spyders via the options. I am in no way restricted from accessing those options.

So when you make up rules about how to define "the Spyder" when multiples are taken, it doesn't need to be marked as HYWPI and should be recognised as RAW?
The hypocrisy!

I did not make up any rule about how to define "the spyder" when multiples are taken.

I simply follow the rules provided me and add additional spyders because the ability to do so is right there on the Army List Entry and there are no restrictions on accessing that option.

Ok... and again which of those Spyders is "the Spyder". There are no rules that define which Spyder is "the Spyder" when multiples are taken.
By defining which Spyder is "the Spyder", you make up a rule.
Something you did previously and yet refused to accept it wasn't RAW and just HYWPI.

RAW, the options for the 1 canoptek spyder allow me to add additional spyders. If unit of 1 spyder were restricted to 1, it would list this restriction in the restrictions box.

And I'm not talking about if you can/can't add Spyders, I'm talking about Adaptive Subroutines!

Which Spyder is "the Spyder"? Until you can find a rule (an actual rule, not one you've made up) that tells us which Spyder is, Adaptive Subroutines breaks and the Formation is useless.

Your previous solution to this had no rules support, and yet you claimed it was RAW, not HYWPI.

Lance845 wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.

That's better, where is that?

pg 2 rising leviathan 2 dataslate.

So all I have to do to get this definition of formations for my 7th edition rule book and Space Marine, Eldar, and Necron Codexes is buy a bunch of 6th edition Tyranid data slates?

EDIT: Dude, this supplement isn't even available to buy from GW anymore. Get real.

So OP, after 6 pages... is it still fun?

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

Lance845 wrote:


MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.

That's better, where is that?

pg 2 rising leviathan 2 dataslate.

So all I have to do to get this definition of formations for my 7th edition rule book and Space Marine, Eldar, and Necron Codexes is buy a bunch of 6th edition Tyranid data slates?

EDIT: Dude, this supplement isn't even available to buy from GW anymore. Get real.

Shield of Baal Leviathan and the dataslates that acompany it are 7th edition books. And yes, they are still available from the gdubs in a digitial format.

Which should be obvious. I don't think any formations existed in 6th.

Also, that definition should be at the front of any book that includes formations. That is simply the pg and book I was getting it from. Feel free to check your own books with formations for the same little snip-it on how formations work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
RAW, the options for the 1 canoptek spyder allow me to add additional spyders. If unit of 1 spyder were restricted to 1, it would list this restriction in the restrictions box.

Show me the entry that says it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
See, here is an example from mine.



Carnifex Brood may add additional models.

The individual models cannot.

However, a model may replace a pair of scything talons.

I am betting your Swarm entry is worded the same way. Since the formation has you bring 1 model. Not 1 swarm, you don't get that option. RAW and RAI

Lance845 wrote:

I am betting your Swarm entry is worded the same way. Since the formation has you bring 1 model. Not 1 swarm, you don't get that option. RAW

It's on the Army List Entry. Are you saying I don't have access to the Army List Entry and cannot add a particle beamer to the spyder in the formation?

Oh, you're right, it's still there, my bad.

So again, I have to buy Shield of Baal and the Supplements to get these rules for my rulebook and Space Marine army?

Also, does this mean that models don't get to use a formation's special rules? It's pretty specific, only units get to. Not models or vehicles.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Oh, you're right, it's still there, my bad.

So again, I have to buy Shield of Baal and the Supplements to get these rules for my rulebook and Space Marine army?

Also, does this mean that models don't get to use a formation's special rules? It's pretty specific, only units get to. Not models or vehicles.

All models on the table are part of units. A unit however is not an individual model. They are 2 different things.

The formation specifically gives you 1 model. So you can customize that one model according to that entry. On the table that model is it's own unit.

The spyders entry does not say a spyder can bring extra models. It says the swarm can. You are not customizing a unit, Your customizing the one. The one you get.


This all boils down to one thing. The formation specifies you get 1 model.

You need to prove that 1 model is synonymous with 1 unit of model.

But you cannot. Because a model is different from a unit. The formation gives you 1 model. Deal with it.

I can't deal with it, I don't own the Shield of Baal or Leviathan supplements.

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

I am betting your Swarm entry is worded the same way. Since the formation has you bring 1 model. Not 1 swarm, you don't get that option. RAW

It's on the Army List Entry. Are you saying I don't have access to the Army List Entry and cannot add a particle beamer to the spyder in the formation?

I am saying you have access to anything in your army list entry that relates to the model you are bringing. The model you are bringing. Your army list entry does not allow your model to add extra models. It allows the unit to do so. Do you understand the difference between a model and a unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

I can't deal with it, I don't own the Shield of Baal or Leviathan supplements.

Also, that definition should be at the front of any book that includes formations. That is simply the pg and book I was getting it from. Feel free to check your own books with formations for the same little snip-it on how formations work.

Do you understand that according to my rule book and Codex, formations don't reference models? They reference Army List Entries or units entirely. There is no reference to formations taking models. Army List Entries are units, even unique independent characters are considered a unit by the ALE. No where does it say that Formations reference models, it's specific to units. The only reference that has been presented is the Introduction section of the description of data sheets and data slates, which doesn't mean anything to my rule book and Codex. Which, even further down, has another section actually titled "Formations" and surprise, doesn't mention models.



And the Army List Entry does allow me to add extra models. It's right there.



There is no restrictions in the formation on what options I can take, the formation references ALEs, and ALEs are units and not models.

So, yeah.

EDIT: That data sheets and supplement description that includes "models and vehicles" isn't in the Codexes or rule book.

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

I am betting your Swarm entry is worded the same way. Since the formation has you bring 1 model. Not 1 swarm, you don't get that option. RAW

It's on the Army List Entry. Are you saying I don't have access to the Army List Entry and cannot add a particle beamer to the spyder in the formation?

I am saying you have access to anything in your army list entry that relates to the model you are bringing. The model you are bringing. Your army list entry does not allow your model to add extra models. It allows the unit to do so. Do you understand the difference between a model and a unit?

Are you saying the 1 canoptek spyder is not a unit? If so, please explain how the opponent shoots at the spyder model when the shooting rules require units.

Well count on GW to be inconsistent in their publications. Which books do and do not mention how formations work is all up in the air I guess. THAT BEING SAID, A Spyder is not a unit and neither is a Warlock. Those are the names of models.

Do YOU understand the difference between models and units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

I am betting your Swarm entry is worded the same way. Since the formation has you bring 1 model. Not 1 swarm, you don't get that option. RAW

It's on the Army List Entry. Are you saying I don't have access to the Army List Entry and cannot add a particle beamer to the spyder in the formation?

I am saying you have access to anything in your army list entry that relates to the model you are bringing. The model you are bringing. Your army list entry does not allow your model to add extra models. It allows the unit to do so. Do you understand the difference between a model and a unit?

Are you saying the 1 canoptek spyder is not a unit? If so, please explain how the opponent shoots at the spyder model when the shooting rules require units.

It's a yes or no question. Do you understand what the difference is? Is "Canoptek Spyder" the name of a model or a unit?

A model is a part of a unit.

A unit is made up of models.

A unit is represented by it's ALE.

Formations reference ALEs exclusively in my rule book and Codex.

Which means, again, the Necron formation is Broken by RAW because of an missing/additional (depending on how you look at it) "s" at the end of Spyder.

I have no doubt GW means models, but GW almost never writes what it means properly at all.

Lance845 wrote:
Well count on GW to be inconsistent in their publications. Which books do and do not mention how formations work is all up in the air I guess. THAT BEING SAID, A Spyder is not a unit and neither is a Warlock. Those are the names of models.

Do YOU understand the difference between models and units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

I am betting your Swarm entry is worded the same way. Since the formation has you bring 1 model. Not 1 swarm, you don't get that option. RAW

It's on the Army List Entry. Are you saying I don't have access to the Army List Entry and cannot add a particle beamer to the spyder in the formation?

I am saying you have access to anything in your army list entry that relates to the model you are bringing. The model you are bringing. Your army list entry does not allow your model to add extra models. It allows the unit to do so. Do you understand the difference between a model and a unit?

Are you saying the 1 canoptek spyder is not a unit? If so, please explain how the opponent shoots at the spyder model when the shooting rules require units.

It's a yes or no question. Do you understand what the difference is? Is "Canoptek Spyder" the name of a model or a unit?

Canoptek Spyder is the name of the unit. 1 Canoptek Spyder is the unit composition.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

A model is a part of a unit.

A unit is made up of models.

A unit is represented by it's ALE.

Formations reference ALEs exclusively in my rule book and Codex.

Which means, again, the Necron formation is Broken by RAW because of an missing/additional (depending on how you look at it) "s" at the end of Spyder.

I have no doubt GW means models, but GW almost never writes what it means properly at all.

Excellent what is the actual name of the Spyders unit? Please, if you don't mind, throw in a picture like I have been.

The unit name is "Canoptek Spyders", the models are "Canoptek Spyder"

Formations can only take ALEs, not models, there is no allowance for it.

So there is no ALE called "Canoptek Spyder".

The formation cannot be fielded because you cannot include all of the specified ALEs/units.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
The unit name is "Canoptek Spyders", the models are "Canoptek Spyder"

Formations can only take ALEs, not models, there is no allowance for it.

So there is no ALE called "Canoptek Spyder".

The formation cannot be fielded because you cannot include all of the specified ALEs/units.

Clearly, formations can list models in their entries. I have plenty of examples up there. Including one formation that lists formations. (living tide).



There are no such units in any book. Is Living Tide impossible to field?

Mind showing me a picture of the formation showing what "units" it takes?

No, it clearly says that formations list units and ALEs other then an introductory part to your supplement. Which doesn't govern me making an army with the Necron, Eldar, or Space Marine Codexes as far as I am aware.

It says:

FORMATION:
1 Canoptek Spyder
1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths
1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs
RESTRICTIONS:
None.

So, technically, it's broken. They clearly mean for you to take one Spyder, but that isn't how they described formations working anywhere.

That is the way it is written. That is the way it was intended. They have a gakky way of writing down what can be listed in the "unit composition" portion of formations. Even in my listing it says model, units and vehicles. Not formations. Then they made a formation with a unit composition of formations. Thanks GW.

GW sucks. Agreed? Agreed.

The rules for your formation do not tell you to bring a unit of spyders. Just one spyder. That means the unit composition itself is a restriction on the number of models you can bring in that unit.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
They clearly mean for you to take one Spyder,

-Fin-