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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 03:54:20
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Question: If you deepstrike on a point under a Flyer's wings or hull such that you are directly below it, does that count as having "moved over" it to trigger the Intercept rule that Swooping Hawks have thereby allowing you to make an attack via the Intercept rule?
Analysis: Since how Swooping Hawks enter by Deepstrike is coming down from above, like a drop pod, one can see how the Hawks would tag the flier on the way down. This makes sense to me and seems fluffy. However, it is unclear whether the Swooping Hawks intercept rule works against flyers you deepstrike through so interested to hear what other people have to say and why. Consider the following arguments:
Argument for Deep Strike triggering Intercept:
The strongest and what I beleive to be the most well reasoned argument for Deep Strike triggering Intercept is that when you arrive via Deep Strike, you are moving to the chosen point from some other point not on the table, therefore, horizontal or vertical movement can be assumed. For example, if you draw a line from ANY point ANYWHERE on or off the board, which we would call point A, and draw a line to where the Hawks end up, which we could call point B, you can see how there is movement.
The problem is that while there is a clear "point B" there is no clear "point A" on the board. We have to assume "A" for this argument to work and that is where it falls apart. You have to admit, though, it is a creative argument. After all, the Hawks techincally ARE moving from wherever they physically are (such as a display board) to the chosen Deep Strike location  .
Argument against Deep Strike triggering Intercept:
The strongest and most well reasoned argument against is that when Deep Striking, no amount of horizontal or vertical movement is indicated-only a final position is determined. Therefore the "moving over" has to be assumed for my original argument to work. Since the vertical or horizontal movement has to be assumed to have occured, absent any indication that there IS vertical or horizontal movement, we must assume there isn't any vertical or horizontal movement taking place and therefore it cannot rightly be said that a Deep Striking unit "moves over" anything.
Other considerations:
Now if a TO wants to assume vertical movement based on thematic reasons (e.g., Hawks are dropping down from above) that is another thing altogether but it is not based on RAW for the aforementioned reasons.
Conclusion:
To be able to say that Deep Strike triggers Intercept, you must be able to demonstrate that a point "A" exists. Since you can't clearly do so, and since it has to be assumed that point "A" exists somewhere on or off the board for this argument to work, it fails completely unless FAQ'd or the language of Deep Strike is changed to accommodate the above analysis.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/06/15 16:33:07
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
My gaming blog regarding Eldar and soon to be CSM:Thousand Sons: http://yriel.blogspot.com/
My WIP Tyranid Fandex:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576691.page#6486415 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 04:09:10
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Screaming Shining Spear
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You never moved over the flyer though which intercept requires.
While you do indeed count as moving hen you deep strike - you are not actually moving - you are deploying.
Premise 4 is just a fluff justification with no rules bearing at all as well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 04:11:43
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Off the top of my head, I think the closest definition we have for moving over models is in how Jump Infantry have permission to move over enemy models in the Movement phase. That is, beginning at point A and ending at point B with enemy models in between that they ordinarily would not be able to move through.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 04:19:23
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Massaen wrote:You never moved over the flyer though which intercept requires.
While you do indeed count as moving hen you deep strike - you are not actually moving - you are deploying.
Premise 4 is just a fluff justification with no rules bearing at all as well.
I agree about Premise 4 so I edited it to simply state a fact. I may actually just delete Premise for all together though.
However, I disagree about your assessment of actually moving when Deep Striking as the rules for Deep Strike strongly imply the models have "moved" with such language as "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further..." and "Count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."
You seem to be suggesting that the only way a model counts as having moved is if it physically moves from one point on the table to another in the Movement phase. So, if you arrive via Deep Strike embarked on a transport, then disembark, is that the only way you would consider the models as having moved?
Essentially, is having counted as doing something the same thing as having done that something? From a rules perspective, the answer has to be yes so I would argue you definitely count as having moved and have moved when arriving via Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Shine wrote:Off the top of my head, I think the closest definition we have for moving over models is in how Jump Infantry have permission to move over enemy models in the Movement phase. That is, beginning at point A and ending at point B with enemy models in between that they ordinarily would not be able to move through.
The Movement phase says you cannot move through or over another model but the rules for Jump/Jet and various other types override that limitation and say you can, but you cannot end on top of a model. The rules for the Flyers say similar things in that models that can fit can freely move under a Flyer as long as they remain 1" away and a Flyer can move and end over other models as long as the models are 1" away from the Flyer and the base.
Not sure how this effects the rules debate as it still isn't entirely clear how ending under a Flyer via Deep Strike does or does not count as having moved over the Flyer. Ultimately, I think it will need a TO to decide.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/15 04:30:04
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
My gaming blog regarding Eldar and soon to be CSM:Thousand Sons: http://yriel.blogspot.com/
My WIP Tyranid Fandex:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576691.page#6486415 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 04:41:28
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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mortetvie wrote:The Movement phase says you cannot move through or over another model but the rules for Jump/Jet and various other types override that limitation and say you can, but you cannot end on top of a model. The rules for the Flyers say similar things in that models that can fit can freely move under a Flyer as long as they remain 1" away and a Flyer can move and end over other models as long as the models are 1" away from the Flyer and the base.
Not sure how this effects the rules debate as it still isn't entirely clear how ending under a Flyer via Deep Strike does or does not count as having moved over the Flyer. Ultimately, I think it will need a TO to decide.
That's basically what I was getting at, that we don't have a clear definition of what is or is not counted explicitly as moving over, and that we only have at best a suggestion that "moving over" is what Jump and Jet units may do, in the sense of starting at one point and ending at another when enemy models are between both points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 05:50:14
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Based on the rules for Jump units and being able to get to the other side of tall impassible terrain, I'd say that movement represents the horizontal path and ignores the vertical element of the move.
As the deep striking unit does not travel horizontally (scatter is not a move) then it does not move through any other units when it deep strikes.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 07:20:47
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Jefffar wrote:Based on the rules for Jump units and being able to get to the other side of tall impassible terrain, I'd say that movement represents the horizontal path and ignores the vertical element of the move.
As the deep striking unit does not travel horizontally (scatter is not a move) then it does not move through any other units when it deep strikes.
As to your first point, the game has rules for vertical movement (e.g., moving up and down levels in ruins) therefore movement does not only represent horizontal movement. Therefore, your second point falls apart and becomes moot because there is no basis to say a unit doesn't move through another unit when it Deep Strikes.
The bottom line is the unit definitely counts as having "moved." The question is just if it counts as having moved "over" another unit when it Deep Strikes on a point below a Flyer's wings or hull?
It is a point that I think a TO will simply need to make a ruling on as it is not entirely clear and I don't think either position can definitively say one way or another which way it should be ruled. The same question is raised if you land on the bottom level of a Ruins via Deep Strike and are below a FMC's or Flyer's base (because the FMC/Flyer is on an upper level).
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Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
My gaming blog regarding Eldar and soon to be CSM:Thousand Sons: http://yriel.blogspot.com/
My WIP Tyranid Fandex:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576691.page#6486415 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 07:31:54
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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At no point did they move "over"; the unit was placed there. The unit counts as having moved, but you cannot draw a path such that the unit "moved over" the flyer.
It does not work.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 07:42:27
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
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I'd argue that you are not using your jump packs as described in the jump infantry rules when deep striking.
read the jump unit entry again. you must use the jump packs in the manner described in order to move over other models
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"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes...  " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 07:49:03
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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nosferatu1001 wrote:At no point did they move "over"; the unit was placed there. The unit counts as having moved, but you cannot draw a path such that the unit "moved over" the flyer.
It does not work.
I am leaning towards this as well.
@All, I was looking for the STRONGEST reasons for or against Deep Strike triggering Intercept. So while some came up with reasons why it does not work, they were not the best or most logical reasons why not.
The strongest and most well reasoned argument against is that when Deep Striking, no amount of horizontal or vertical movement is indicated-only a final position is determined. Therefore the "moving over" has to be assumed for my original argument to work. Since the vertical or horizontal movement has to be assumed to have occured, absent any indication that there IS vertical or horizontal movement, we must assume there isn't any vertical or horizontal movement taking place and therefore it cannot rightly be said that a Deep Striking unit "moves over" anything.
The strongest and what I beleive to be the most well reasoned argument for Deep Strike triggering Intercept is that when you arrive via Deep Strike, you are moving to the chosen point from some other point not on the table, therefore, horizontal or vertical movement can be assumed. For example, if you draw a line from ANY point ANYWHERE on or off the board, which we would call point A, and draw a line to where the Hawks end up, which we could call point B, you can see how there is movement.
The problem is that while there is a clear "point b" there is no clear "point a" on the board. We have to assume "a" for this argument to work and that is where it falls apart. You have to admit, though, it is a creative argument. After all, the Hawks techincally ARE moving from wherever they physicall are (such as a display board) to the chosen Deep Strike location  .
Now if a TO wants to assume vertical movement based on thematic reasons (e.g., Hawks are dropping down from above) that is another thing altogether but it is not based on RAW for the aforementioned reasons.
Thanks all for helping me think through which position is the stronger one.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/15 08:12:11
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
My gaming blog regarding Eldar and soon to be CSM:Thousand Sons: http://yriel.blogspot.com/
My WIP Tyranid Fandex:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576691.page#6486415 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 12:37:29
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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As much as I would love for it to work. I lean towards no. As Deep Striking for some units is just teleportation where a unit would simply appear and not having "gone over" a model.
But there is only 1 type of deep strike and fluff has no bearings on the application of the rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 13:20:29
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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You are removed from the board, then deepstrike. You do not move between the two points, they are wholly separate and distinct actions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 13:23:02
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Fixture of Dakka
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nosferatu1001 wrote:At no point did they move "over"; the unit was placed there. The unit counts as having moved, but you cannot draw a path such that the unit "moved over" the flyer.
It does not work.
Agreed. Since there is no defined origin point for the Deep Strike, there is no way to measure whether or not the model moved "over" the flier.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 17:23:36
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The models did not actually move, but count as moving. This is the same reason DS skimmers cannot claim to be moving when DSing and move 1" away from models to avoid mishapping. They count as moving, but they are not actually moving anywhere.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/20 21:47:27
Subject: Re:Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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World-Weary Pathfinder
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I'm going to go with "No" as well because they are deployed on the table, not moved.
To counter the argument "They drop down over it per fluff" I would point out that it is just as likely that they glided in under the flier. And it's irrelevant anyway because of reason one stated above!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/24 14:08:15
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Storming Storm Guardian
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Erik_Morkai wrote:As much as I would love for it to work. I lean towards no. As Deep Striking for some units is just teleportation where a unit would simply appear and not having "gone over" a model.
But there is only 1 type of deep strike and fluff has no bearings on the application of the rule.
So I would argue that Deep Striking is not a teleportation. Unless you are using a WWP or something like that. Deep striking is something that is coming down on the battlefield from up above. If it was a teleportation then I would tell Tau who try and intercept me on the way down to shove it, since i just appear. However I am falling from the sky literally so I understand the rules and the fluff. Nothing in the rules says that deep striking is a straight down vertical drop, and lets be honest with real science it would not be. When is the last time you saw someone jump out of a plane and fall straight down to the ground directly vertical to where he started, not going to happen. So the OP question is very valid and I agree with him. You can say that the swooping hawks moved over a flyer on the way in from deep striking,and they don't scatter assuming you have an exarch, which was in the movement phase. So I say yes it would be allowed. I don't know what you mean by there is only 1 type of deep strike and there is no fluff, because nothing in the deep striking rules says it is a straight down fall, and the deep striking rules says that you count as having moved, and i say i moved my swooping hawks over a flyer in the movement phase, which I think they did, then in the shooting phase they should be allowed to throw their grenade at the flyer.
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Lugganath-light of the fallen suns
2500points 250 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/24 14:20:20
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Deep Striking is only 'falling from the sky' or 'entering via a warp rift' or 'using a teleportarium' or 'riding a grav chute' in the background fluff.
From a rules perspective, Deep Striking simply counts as movement and involves placing the models on the table. Terminators do not actually begin the game in an Astartes Strike Cruiser in orbit. They begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves. Tau Crisis Suits do not actually begin the game in an Orca Transport flying over the battlefield. They begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves. Swooping Hawks do not actually begin the game way up in the sky somewhere. They begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves.
Where I'm going with this is that there is no reason to discuss vertical movement as the Swooping Hawks are not somehow above the Flyer before the Deep Strike is performed. They are off the table, in Reserves. Then they're on the table (using the Deep Strike rules for placement). This placement counts as movement, but isn't actually a move of X inches in any direction.
Functionally, all Deep Strikes function as a form of teleportation. The model is off the table and then it's on the table. There is no movement to represent dropping from the sky or anything like that. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Interceptor is handled at the end of the Movement phase. It doesn't matter how you appear of the battlefield. My troops see you appear, take aim and fire once you're settled. This is why you can fire at the Marines who disembark from a Drop Pod. You aren't firing at the Drop Pod as it's falling. You're firing once it's hit the ground.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/24 14:21:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/27 00:10:09
Subject: Swooping Hawks: Intercept triggered when deepstriking?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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I'll add on further;
IF I stipulate there's likely lateral movement in their deep strike;
IF I stipulate their likely Point A would have them intersect paths with my flyer,
Can you stipulate you can't guarantee they crossed OVER the flyer? How do you know the flyer wasn't higher altitude, and crossed OVER the Hawks?
Remember the representation of the models isn't direct. I think we can all agree that flyers are usually much higher up in the air than their flying base suggests. If a Space Marine is 7 feet tall, then those Storm Ravens are racing around at far far less than 100 feet of altitude?
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My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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