Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 pretre wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
If it makes absolutely no difference if the IC or the unit has Special Rules and who would and would not get to benefit from them, why does the "Special Rules" paragraph exist on pg 166 after the "joining and leaving a unit" paragraph, if they summed everything up with the "all rules purposes" clause?

Because it covers things like FNP and Stubborn, which affect individual models. The SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit.

If, instead, SAF had a rule that said 'Assault squads in this formation gain Furious Charge.' this would not transfer to an attached IC (as this is a model specific special rule). That's why the Special Rules paragraph is there. The IC isn't part of the formation, but he is part of the unit.

Stubborn doesn't affect units? I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion, since the unit is conferred the Stubborn special rule so long as one model in the unit has it. Others have cited Stealth as an example as well. However, that wording is exactly the same as Stubborn. Another example? Skilled Rider.

When you say that "the SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit", you are correct. However, again, the Special Rules paragraph states that, unless explicitly stated, a unit's Special Rules do not confer to the IC, and vice versa.

Try to make actual points instead of your opinion on a take on rules? Lol.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try to make actual points instead of your opinion on a take on rules? Lol.

You might want to go back and check where I quoted actual rules and points instead of making things up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Stubborn doesn't affect units? I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion, since the unit is conferred the Stubborn special rule so long as one model in the unit has it. Others have cited Stealth as an example as well. However, that wording is exactly the same as Stubborn. Another example? Skilled Rider.

When you say that "the SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit", you are correct. However, again, the Special Rules paragraph states that, unless explicitly stated, a unit's Special Rules do not confer to the IC, and vice versa.

I actually didn't say Stubborn doesn't confer. I said the rules cover that. The Special rules section says Stubborn transfers because of the wording of the Stubborn rules.

The special rules of the unit don't have to transfer to the model. But he counts as part of the unit still. The unit is allowed to assault. The assault rules don't ask if the models can assault. They ask if the unit can assault. Can the unit assault? Yes. The lack of special rules for the ic is completely irrelevant.

blaktoof wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The assault squad is a unit. The IC counts as part of the unit for ALL rules purposes

The rules say the unit is part of the formation, then the IC counts as part of the unit for the purpose of that rule

all rules purposes is not well defined.

I read all the way up to this line and then started laughing my ass off.

It's very well defined. All. Rules. Purposes.

Once an IC joins a unit for ALL intents and purposes it is a member of that unit. Anything that happens to that unit, good or bad, happens to the IC as well. Any benefits the unit gains the IC gains and any debuffs or drawbacks apply to the IC as well.

Did the IC join a unit before someone cast a malediction on the unit? Well then the IC has been maledictioned.

The formations special rule says the unit from the formation. If the IC joins that unit, he is now a part of the unit from that formation.

Lance845 wrote:
Once an IC joins a unit for ALL intents and purposes it is a member of that unit.

The formations special rule says the unit from the formation. If the IC joins that unit, he is now a part of the unit from that formation.

Except for special rules. Those don't transfer. Luckily, he doesn't need them to charge. 

Does this rule help clear things up?

col_impact wrote:
Does this rule help clear things up?

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND ASSAULTS

Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of
a unit. If a character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too,
as it is part of the unit. If the character’s unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of
the unit.

Oooh good one.

pretre wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Means that if one model cannot Charge, you have a Charge range of 0", and so cannot reach any unit to Charge, so cannot even declare a Charge.

Citation needed. Not being able to charge is never equated to a charge range of 0". It simply says you can't charge. As far as I can find, there is a single reference to a model specific exclusion and that is heavy weapon shooting. Running, going to ground, falling back, deep strike all say unit.

I gave it here:

BRB wrote:ROLL CHARGE RANGE
...
Roll 2D6. This is your charge range – the number of inches your assaulting unit can charge. This total is important, so remember it. If a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model.

A unit cannot charge farther than the slowest model. A model that cannot Charge provides quite a limitation on that range, yes?

pretre wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I'm glad we all agree that while the ic can join, he doesn't benefit from their benefits.

He doesn't, but the unit does.

It would probably be better stated as, "it doesn't as a model, but does as a member of the unit."

Pain4Pleasure wrote:Exactly, he doesn't so when the unit(not unit + ic unit, which is two different units) charges the ic is left behind unfortunately.

You can't leave the IC behind in the Assault Phase (short of loss of Wounds or crazy special rules). And there is no such distinction in regards to a (unit+IC unit) versus a (unit-without-IC unit) in the game. Either they are all one unit, or they are not.

And the rules for IC quite explicitly say they are.

 pretre wrote:
Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.
Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly.

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes.

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.
Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

This. No one in the unit has the special rule, the unit as a whole, which the IC is part of for all rules purposes, has it.

Charistoph wrote:
A unit cannot charge farther than the slowest model. A model that cannot Charge provides quite a limitation on that range, yes?

Not charging is not a speed of 0". This is never referenced in the rules. Not charging means you don't charge.

It would probably be better stated as, "it doesn't as a model, but does as a member of the unit."

This is correct.

You can't leave the IC behind in the Assault Phase (short of loss of Wounds or crazy special rules). And there is no such distinction in regards to a (unit+IC unit) versus a (unit-without-IC unit) in the game. Either they are all one unit, or they are not.

And the rules for IC quite explicitly say they are.

I agree wholeheartedly.

It's about the way Skyhammer words the rule. It specifies the unit. And the IC is a part of that unit.

If, like living artillery node for nids the rule was worded as "Models in this formation" then yes, the IC would not gain ANY of the benefits.

But it doesn't. It says UNITS. And the IC is a member of the unit.

 pretre wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
A unit cannot charge farther than the slowest model. A model that cannot Charge provides quite a limitation on that range, yes?

Not charging is not a speed of 0". This is never referenced in the rules. Not charging means you don't charge.

The model still cannot move in the Charge. And the unit can only move as far as the shortest range.

If some get caught in Difficult Terrain, all of the models may only Charge as far as the ones caught in Difficult Terrain. You are not permitted to Charge any farther than the slowest. Not moving is pretty dang slow in my book, and translates to 0".

But this is divergent from the thread.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
All language is an interpretation

Clearly you don't realize how absurd your statement is.

Interpretation: a particular adaptation or version of a work, method, or style

So your saying ambiguity is embedded in all communication? Why even use the rule book, just make than up as you go. Just don't try to convince others of your interpretations, or at least try to be more open minded.

I don't mean to preach and I do apologize, I just really felt I had to explain how you come across. Maybe you don't care... I don't know and now I care even less.

Charistoph wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
A unit cannot charge farther than the slowest model. A model that cannot Charge provides quite a limitation on that range, yes?

Not charging is not a speed of 0". This is never referenced in the rules. Not charging means you don't charge.

The model still cannot move in the Charge. And the unit can only move as far as the shortest range.

If some get caught in Difficult Terrain, all of the models may only Charge as far as the ones caught in Difficult Terrain. You are not permitted to Charge any farther than the slowest. Not moving is pretty dang slow in my book, and translates to 0".

But this is divergent from the thread.

Yeah, I would like to see a rules quotation for that one.

.

Nevermind.

 Byte wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
All language is an interpretation

Clearly you don't realize how absurd your statement is.

Interpretation: a particular adaptation or version of a work, method, or style

So your saying ambiguity is embedded in all communication? Why even use the rule book, just make than up as you go. Just don't try to convince others of your interpretations, or at least try to be more open minded.

I don't mean to preach and I do apologize, I just really felt I had to explain how you come across. Maybe you don't care... I don't know and now I care even less.

All language IS interpretation though, that's hardly absurd.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Byte wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
All language is an interpretation

Clearly you don't realize how absurd your statement is.

Interpretation: a particular adaptation or version of a work, method, or style

So your saying ambiguity is embedded in all communication? Why even use the rule book, just make than up as you go. Just don't try to convince others of your interpretations, or at least try to be more open minded.

I don't mean to preach and I do apologize, I just really felt I had to explain how you come across. Maybe you don't care... I don't know and now I care even less.

All language IS interpretation though, that's hardly absurd.

See common connotations for the words, "bad", "sick", and "cool" for supportive examples.

This thread is about to get AMAZING.

 Byte wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
All language is an interpretation

Clearly you don't realize how absurd your statement is.

Interpretation: a particular adaptation or version of a work, method, or style

So your saying ambiguity is embedded in all communication? Why even use the rule book, just make than up as you go. Just don't try to convince others of your interpretations, or at least try to be more open minded.

I don't mean to preach and I do apologize, I just really felt I had to explain how you come across. Maybe you don't care... I don't know and now I care even less.

Awesome, now please follow the tenets. As you failed to address my substantive point, I presume you accept your error.

 pretre wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try to make actual points instead of your opinion on a take on rules? Lol.

You might want to go back and check where I quoted actual rules and points instead of making things up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Stubborn doesn't affect units? I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion, since the unit is conferred the Stubborn special rule so long as one model in the unit has it. Others have cited Stealth as an example as well. However, that wording is exactly the same as Stubborn. Another example? Skilled Rider.

When you say that "the SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit", you are correct. However, again, the Special Rules paragraph states that, unless explicitly stated, a unit's Special Rules do not confer to the IC, and vice versa.

I actually didn't say Stubborn doesn't confer. I said the rules cover that. The Special rules section says Stubborn transfers because of the wording of the Stubborn rules.

The special rules of the unit don't have to transfer to the model. But he counts as part of the unit still. The unit is allowed to assault. The assault rules don't ask if the models can assault. They ask if the unit can assault. Can the unit assault? Yes. The lack of special rules for the ic is completely irrelevant.

Yeah this is the sticking point where we diverge. The lack of special rules for the IC is very relevant, since the paragraph on Special Rules for ICs specifically states they cannot benefit from a unit's special rules unless explicitly stated. Therefore, he cannot benefit from the SAF's Special Rules even if he joins them and becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", EXCLUDING their special rules, which is very explicitly written after the "all rules purposes" clause.

Except, as pointed out, the unit itself has the special rule, and it affects the units ability to charge.

 Homeskillet wrote:
Yeah this is the sticking point where we diverge. The lack of special rules for the IC is very relevant, since the paragraph on Special Rules for ICs specifically states they cannot benefit from a unit's special rules unless explicitly stated. Therefore, he cannot benefit from the SAF's Special Rules even if he joins them and becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", EXCLUDING their special rules, which is very explicitly written after the "all rules purposes" clause.

That's actually not what it says.

It says that special rules are not conferred, not that they can't benefit. They don't need to be conferred. The unit needs the rule to assault, not the IC.

Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

 jokerkd wrote:
Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

This actually.

The unit does not have the rule. The Formation does.

What the conferring special rules rule actually means is that even though a Warrior Brood has the special rule Very Bulky, a IC that joined them would not itself suddenly become Very Bulky.

 jokerkd wrote:
Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

(I don't have a copy, so I can't confirm)

Most Formation rules start the Special Rule with, "Units in the formation..." or similar. From what has been quoted, "The Assault Squad ...." is the reference.

It still really doesn't change anything because the unit is part of the formation, and if an IC joins it, the IC is part of the unit, which is part of the formation.

Lance845 wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

This actually.

The unit does not have the rule. The Formation does.

What the conferring special rules rule actually means is that even though a Warrior Brood has the special rule Very Bulky, a IC that joined them would not itself suddenly become Very Bulky.

Not a good reference. The Bulky rule specifically references the model.

Lance845 wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

This actually.

The unit does not have the rule. The Formation does.

What the conferring special rules rule actually means is that even though a Warrior Brood has the special rule Very Bulky, a IC that joined them would not itself suddenly become Very Bulky.

"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

The units gain the special rules.

 pretre wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Yeah this is the sticking point where we diverge. The lack of special rules for the IC is very relevant, since the paragraph on Special Rules for ICs specifically states they cannot benefit from a unit's special rules unless explicitly stated. Therefore, he cannot benefit from the SAF's Special Rules even if he joins them and becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", EXCLUDING their special rules, which is very explicitly written after the "all rules purposes" clause.

That's actually not what it says.

It says that special rules are not conferred, not that they can't benefit. They don't need to be conferred. The unit needs the rule to assault, not the IC.

confer
1. grant or bestow (a title, degree, benefit, or right).
"moves were made to confer an honorary degree on her"
synonyms: bestow on, present to, grant to, award to, decorate with, honor with, give to, endow with, extend to
"she conferred a knighthood on him"

benefit
1. an advantage or profit gained from something.

If an IC benefits from the rule, it was gained FROM something; the unit. Conferring is granting (giving) the special rule to the IC. How are these different? You would be splitting a mighty fine hair there my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except, as pointed out, the unit itself has the special rule, and it affects the units ability to charge.

And I've pointed out that an IC joining a unit with a Special Rule cannot benefit from that Special Rule without that rule explicitly stating so.

My take on it is it depends on your meta.
Deepstrike is a clear cut exclusionary rule. No independsnt character can join the assault squad unless it can also deepstrike the fornaton can't pass this rule along.

The assault after deepstrike I say yes but it depends on your meta some tournaments make rules exclusionary without a defined exclusion for instance a greentide lead by a biker warboss. Bikes can't run but some tournies still allow the tide to run even though a biker warboss is attached as long as they maintain coherency. However some tournaments say since a bike can't run your greentide can't run. This is the exclusionary part of the rule. I follow the first ideal that you can charge with the independsnt character since the unit is not precluded because of the independsnt character. If the formation rule stated all models in this formation I would not allow it however it states all units In this formation making it legal.

It all depends if your meta follows the exclusionary rule.

The devastators however are more easily clear cut. Relentless is a shared usr. Drop pods are a transport rule and the rule for gtg is when the unit targets a squad they force a leadership test. Which has nothing to do with any attached charscters.

That's my take if your area prevents things like greentide from running with attached bikes then you follow an exclusionary rule and don't allow this formation from charging when the independsnt character can't charge.

Formation gives the units the "First the Fire, then the Blade" Special Rule as if it were listed under the unit's Army List Entry Special Rules section. That's what I take to mean by units "gain" a Special Rules in a Formation.

The IC is considered to be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, with the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules.

The IC joins the unit, however, it does not gain the "FTFTTB" Special Rule because of the IC rules.

So far, so good. Simple enough.

Now lets talk about gaining something vs benefiting something.

The IC Special Rules section doesn't say an IC can't benefit from a Special Rule, it says it doesn't confer Special Rules by joining the unit with Special Rules unless it states it does. This is actually an important distinction.

Gaining a rule and gaining a benefit from a rule are not the same thing. There are multitudes of Special Rules that units have that give benefits to other units by name, vicinity, or dozens of other attributes. Those Special Rules often don't confer a new Special Rule to the other unit and they don't need to be conferred the Special Rule to benefit from it.

For example; the Eldar Spiritseer's Spirit Mark

"Spirit Mark: Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemy units that are within 12" of a model with this special rule"

This doesn't confer wraith units a special rule; it simply allows allows them to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 if they are within a certain distance. The rule "belongs" to the Spiritseer but the wraith units are benefited. No where does it say the wraith units gain a new rule; they simply benefit, as long as they meet any restrictions, from another unit's Special Rule without gaining it themselves.

Even if the Spiritseer joins a squad of Wraithguard, the Wraithguard do not get the Spirit Mark Special Rule conferred to them and the Spirit Seer does not get the Bulky rule conferred to him because of the way the IC rules work. However, the Wraithguard still meet the description of the Spirit Mark Special Rule; they are Wraithguard within 12" of a model with that Special Rule so they still gain the benefit. No rule was conferred, but they still reroll their 1's on To Hit rolls.

This is because there is no requirement to confer a rule to another unit to have a beneficial effect on it. If such a requirement did exist, that would literally break the vast majority of Special Rules out there with the way they are worded since again, many of them do not confer Special Rules out. Some Special Rules do confer other unit's Special Rules, but those specifically say that they confer another unit a Special Rule.

So, knowing that.

The FTFTTB Special Rule specifies units and lifts a restriction on what they can do; more specifically, "the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.".

So, that section of the rule gives a permission, a benefit, to the Assault Squads without any further restriction. The IC isn't gaining a new rule and the IC is not required to have a Special Rule for the unit to gain the "benefit" of the effect of a Special Rule; it only needs to meet the descriptive requirements of who the Special Rule affects. The rule simply states "the assault squads", of which he is a part of for rules purposes, so the unit gains the "benefit" without the IC gaining a new rule.