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WS give scout to a few vehicles right?

can you not put a unit in the vehicle and also put an IC in there as well and still scout?

Scout explicitly gains the benefit without transferring to the whole unit (as long as one model with this special rule...)

If the IC is in coherency, he becomes part of the unit. if the unit can charge, so can he. I don't now why this is an argument.

^model types of Assault Squad



^What the formation is made of

If its not listed in the restrictions, then its good to go.

it just needs to follow simple rules.

the assault squad has to deep strike. if you attach an IC then he needs to be able to DS as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:


^model types of Assault Squad



^What the formation is made of

yes, the formation consists of those two types of squads. and the two types of squads get special rules for being purchased as a formation

I'm telling you, if IC characters where not allowed and could not benefit, they would have put it in the RESTRICTIONS

they've done it in other instances. other codexes and supplements clearly state what restrictions are if there are any

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
If its not listed in the restrictions, then its good to go.

it just needs to follow simple rules.

the assault squad has to deep strike. if you attach an IC then he needs to be able to DS as well

That isn't the way drop pods work. Units don't need the deep strike rule to embark on a drop pod.

Niether the assault or devestator squads have Deep Strike as a rule, the Drop Pod rules have rules that govern when the unit is embarked upon it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dude, why are you telling me? Do you really think my position in this thread is that the IC can't charge?

SM Assault squads have DS rule, it comes with the jump pack.

the restriction is that the assault squad has to have jump packs in order to DS.

the dev squad needs a drop pod in order to arrive on the table as part of this formation.

id say the same thing too.

if you put an IC in the drop pod with the devs and give him a combi grav then he gets relentless for being a part of the squad

I thought you were arguing for the otherside

For a little, admittedly dated, extra evidence. 5th edition vanguard veterans could charge from deep strike, and had an extra rules line that said they could not if there was an IC joined to the unit. A book with this rule was in fact the most up to date book of its army until several months into 7th (blood angels.)

You may argue that that rule is too old to matter, though.

Everything I've read through in this thread has me believing that IC's can be dragged along in a charge.

yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is allowed.

 easysauce wrote:
yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is not allowed.

Fixed that for you

 easysauce wrote:
yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is allowed.

youre correct.

I was discussing this with my buddy. the drop pods can drop no problem behind enemy lines but unless you get a no scatter. dropping the assault squads is going to be very gutsy. in order for them to be effective they need to be within charge range of a unit.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is not allowed.

Fixed that for you

dont just change someones post to suit your argument, its against the tennants, bring up a legit argument or stay out of the thread

It seems rather simple to me:

A: Formation rules apply to units during the creation of the army. BEFORE a model is even unpacked, every model in that unit gets the rules listed in that Formation. These rules are now rules for that unit.

B: Any IC you want to add is NOT a part of ANY unit at this point. It is just a model in your army, awaiting assignment. Until Deployment...

C: Upon Deployment, an IC may be attached to a squad, obeying the "ICs do not gain unit rules unless specifically said to do so" clause. As the unit has new rules now (gained before deployment, during army creation), this rule is applied, and the IC does NOT gain the Formation rules. They are rules attached to the unit and do not specifically state that ICs get them when attached. According to the BAB, no go.

Simple enough, at least to me. The test for Special Rules does not happen until an IC attempts to attach to a squad. According to the BAB, Special Rules do not transfer unless SPECIFICALLY stated they do. The rules gained through being in a Formation have become special rules of the units in that Formation. IC tries to attach (whether during Deployment or later in the game), make the test for each rule for the IC and the unit. If the rule SPECIFICALLY states it transfers, it does. If it does not specifically state this, the IC does not get it.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is allowed.

youre correct.

I was discussing this with my buddy. the drop pods can drop no problem behind enemy lines but unless you get a no scatter. dropping the assault squads is going to be very gutsy. in order for them to be effective they need to be within charge range of a unit.

yup, and pretty much any player with half a brain can figure out that a 50 pt unit of ten guard (or equivelent unit of chaff from any other codex) can take up enough of the table to become the only viable charge target, which wastes the charge and makes the risk totally not worth it.



killer wabbit above is posting incorrect assumptions, which are not RAW.

you dont have to gain something before or after deployment to gain it, thats just made up.


ICs join a unit, and if that unit benefits from rules that state they also benefit that unit, then so does the IC.

it has been specifically stated other wise that the whole unit benefits from the special rule, fulfilling the "other wise stated" clause in the rules.


plenty of units have special rules that apply only to the models, and even particular types of models, withing that unit (blood claws, scouts, ect ect, many many examples of GW writing rules that exclude joined characters)

GW did not use this method to describe the assault from DS rules, and in fact, wrote it in a specific way to "otherwise say" the *unit* has permission, not specific models in that unit.

KillerWabbit wrote:
It seems rather simple to me:

A: Formation rules apply to units during the creation of the army. BEFORE a model is even unpacked, every model in that unit gets the rules listed in that Formation. These rules are now rules for that unit.

B: Any IC you want to add is NOT a part of ANY unit at this point. It is just a model in your army, awaiting assignment. Until Deployment...

C: Upon Deployment, an IC may be attached to a squad, obeying the "ICs do not gain unit rules unless specifically said to do so" clause. As the unit has new rules now (gained before deployment, during army creation), this rule is applied, and the IC does NOT gain the Formation rules. They are rules attached to the unit and do not specifically state that ICs get them when attached. According to the BAB, no go.

Simple enough, at least to me. The test for Special Rules does not happen until an IC attempts to attach to a squad. According to the BAB, Special Rules do not transfer unless SPECIFICALLY stated they do. The rules gained through being in a Formation have become special rules of the units in that Formation. IC tries to attach (whether during Deployment or later in the game), make the test for each rule for the IC and the unit. If the rule SPECIFICALLY states it transfers, it does. If it does not specifically state this, the IC does not get it.

Correct.

D: Upon "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve" the Units get a new set of Rules: Relentless and a permission to charge. The IC who's a model in that Unit gets those rule too.

When you've done A, B, C and D you've followed the Rules.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I just realized by the rules as written there are some interesting things in this formation.

It has 4 special rules, only one of them actually states it effects the unit, which is shock deployment.

First the fire then the blade, never states it benefits the unit.

Suppressing fusillade, never states it benefits the unit.

Leave no survivors, never states it benefits the unit.

The latter three special rules benefit the 'squad', never is the word unit used in their rules. The only time unit is used in these rules is in reference to the squad doing something to the enemy unit.

As squad =/= unit, since we are talking assault SQUAD, and Devestator SQUAD. which are names of the datasheet entry, there is no actual permission for the IC to use the rule under being treated as part of the unit, because the rule does not specify it affects the unit. Rather it specifies it affects the squad, which is the datasheet name for the models bought from it. This is not the same as if it said it affects the assault squad unit, or the unit from this formation.

So there is actually no rules support for permission for an IC to benefit from the latter three rules, there is rules support for an IC to benefit from 'shock deployment' as it does use the word unit in defining how its rule works, and an IC can count as a member of the unit for rules purposes

The entry at the top of the Data Sheets description, point 3, is called "Unit name" and is described as "here you will find the name of the unit".

So, an Assault Squad is "a unit" named Assault Squad. Being named Assault Squad doesn't make it not "a unit" and references to "units" still apply to units that have a name on their Data Sheet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And adding an IC to a unit doesn't change the unit name. The IC counts as part of the unit it joins for all rules purposes, which includes its name because the unit's name is a part of the rules.

No.

You do not understand.

3/4ths of the special rules for this formation are not special rules that benefit units. they are special rules that benefit the squads. Squad =/= unit. Using the name of the unit does not = a unit on the table top. Notice how the first special rule "shock deployment" specifies the rule affects the unit.

The next 3 nowhere mention the UNIT gets to do something. as such it is NOT an unit rule.

In order for an IC to be able to benefit it has to be an unit rule, otherwise the rule has to state it affects all models in the unit. It does neither, therefore by the RAW 3/4ths of the rules of this formation do not benefit an attached IC.

The IC never has the rule, as the rule is given to the models from the units in that formation prior to deployment- the IC cannot have joined prior to deployment.

3/4ths of the special rules specify they affect the squad, as in devestator squad, and assault squad. They never say they affect the unit, or the unit gets to do this like it does for 'shock deployment' or 'rites of teleportation etc' which call it out as an unit rule. Therefore it is not an unit rule. Without stating that is has permission to affect the unit, which it does not state, it cannot affect the unit as a whole. However it does give permission to affect the SQUAD. Squad is not unit, but squad does refer to the devestator or assault squad datasheet.

The IC can count as a member of an unit, but the IC does not have permission to count as being purchased from those datasheets, so can never claim to be a model from the devestator squad datasheet, or the assault squad datasheet. As only the 'squad' benefits, the IC is not from either the assault squad or the devestator squad. Further the IC cannot claim to count as being from them as no rule actually gives permission to do so. The rule on p.161 would have to specifically state it does, as it would be in conflict with the rules for organizing models into formations/detachments. If an IC was allowed to count as being purchased from a different datasheet, ie devestator squad, or assault squad, it would count as being a model from that datasheet- we are not told it is allowed to do this anywhere. This would invoke a rules conflict as the IC was purchased from its own datasheet, which is separate, and fills a spot in a formation/detachment which is separate from the formation/detachment the assault and devestator squad are purchased from. The issue here is a model cannot belong to more than one formation/detachment as called out in the rules. If the IC counts as being a model from a datasheet from a different detachment, then it belongs to a different detachment, this is not allowed by the rules as it now counts as being in two different detachments. To overcome this you could claim RAI that it switches, but this is also not allowed as it is still bought from a datasheet that is not allowed in that formation, and would leave another formation without a HQ slot-which might make that formation incomplete and not legal.

The end result is unless the rule specifies it affects the UNIT, you do not have any rules as written permission for it to affect the unit. 3/4ths of the rules for this formation do not specify unit, so an attached IC would not benefit from them. The IC joined to the assault squad is a model in the unit, but is not a model from the assault squad datasheet. The same for the devastator datasheet.

and the unit would not be able to charge the turn it arrived, just like an unit with jetbikes with an attached farseer on foot cannot allow the farseer to move 12", and then turboboost 36"- because the farseer does not have the specified rule, and just like this scenario jetbike is a rule that does not specify it affects the unit- just as 3/4ths of these rules do not specify they affect the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

KillerWabbit wrote:
It seems rather simple to me:

A: Formation rules apply to units during the creation of the army. BEFORE a model is even unpacked, every model in that unit gets the rules listed in that Formation. These rules are now rules for that unit.

B: Any IC you want to add is NOT a part of ANY unit at this point. It is just a model in your army, awaiting assignment. Until Deployment...

C: Upon Deployment, an IC may be attached to a squad, obeying the "ICs do not gain unit rules unless specifically said to do so" clause. As the unit has new rules now (gained before deployment, during army creation), this rule is applied, and the IC does NOT gain the Formation rules. They are rules attached to the unit and do not specifically state that ICs get them when attached. According to the BAB, no go.

Simple enough, at least to me. The test for Special Rules does not happen until an IC attempts to attach to a squad. According to the BAB, Special Rules do not transfer unless SPECIFICALLY stated they do. The rules gained through being in a Formation have become special rules of the units in that Formation. IC tries to attach (whether during Deployment or later in the game), make the test for each rule for the IC and the unit. If the rule SPECIFICALLY states it transfers, it does. If it does not specifically state this, the IC does not get it.

Correct.

D: Upon "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve" the Units get a new set of Rules: Relentless and a permission to charge. The IC who's a model in that Unit gets those rule too.

When you've done A, B, C and D you've followed the Rules.

please quote where in the rule it says it affects the unit.

blaktoof wrote:
please quote where in the rule it says it affects the unit.

"the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule"

When does the "Devastator Squads", which cannot be anything but the Unit, get that Rule?

"the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"

If you disagree:
Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?
Yes/ No

Is the IC part of the Devastator Squads (the Unit) on Turn 1 when the game starts?
Yes/No

For me, It boils down to the wording " the assault squad may assault..." Not "the assault squad and any characters that have joined said squad may assault..."

People will spend their lives arguing on threads like this. Facts and opinons remain the same.
The rules are slightly unclear
Space marine players want to justify it.
Other players want to deny it.

This isnt going to change until theres an faq. so reciting the rules back and forth to one another isnt going to change much. Just play it how you want too with your mates. Lets face it, youre not gonna play 99% of the dudes on here!

 Wilson wrote:
Other players want to deny it.

At least 2 people arguing that they are allowed to charge i know on here and myself do not own marines and will never play this Formation.
It not Marine players V Non-Marines.

It's about knowing RaW.

I sure hope the day comes when an FAQ pops up:
"Detachment Command Benefits do not benefit to or cannot be benefited from joined IC"

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
please quote where in the rule it says it affects the unit.

"the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule"

When does the "Devastator Squads", which cannot be anything but the Unit, get that Rule?

"the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"

If you disagree:
Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?
Yes/ No

Is the IC part of the Devastator Squads (the Unit) on Turn 1 when the game starts?
Yes/No

heres the problem.

You are making a leap that the rule affects all the models in the unit, without it stating anywhere that it affects the unit such as 'shock deployment' or 'rites of teleportation' because the unit is originally made up of models from the devestator or assault squad. However unlike other rules which state they affect the unit, this one does not, and you are making an assumption here and not actually using rules as written- as there are none that state it affects the unit.

Yes the unit is made up of those models only prior to an IC joining, and those models have permission to benefit from the rule not because it is a rule that affects the UNIT, but because it is a rule that affects the models from those squads. There is no where in this rule that states it affects the unit, so there is no actual "Rule as written" that affects the unit as it there is rules as written that it affects the unit for other different rules such as 'shock deployment' or 'rites of teleportation'.

The devastator squads have relentless, and if relentless specifies in its rule it affects the unit, then it affects the unit. An IC attached to the unit does not have this rule, but may benefit from relentless or any other special rule models in the unit may have if those specific special rules state they benefit the unit if some or at least one model has it in the unit. Or in the case of some formation rules like 'shock deployment' or 'rites of teleportation' state the unit gets to do something. These 3/4 rules do not.

The ability to charge for the assualt squad does not specify anywhere it affects the unit though does it? So there is no RAW statement that says "the unit may charge when.." or anything similar.

The unit may be made up of members of the assault squad PRIOR to the IC joining, and the unit would be able to charge when they arrive because they have a rule that lets the models from those squads do it, but not because they have a rule that specifies the UNIT may do it.

So when the IC joins you have an unit where some models have an ability that lets them charge, but it is not an ability that specifiies it extends to the unit like other special rule previously mentioned. The IC IS part of the unit, but the special rule does not extend to the unit, it extends to the models bought from the devestator squad. Can you find anywhere in the special rule that it states the unit may charge? or anything about the unit getting to do something?

unless you can find where in the rule in question it specifies it affects the unit?

There is no RAW in these 3 rules that states the unit gets to do something.

 Wilson wrote:
For me, It boils down to the wording " the assault squad may assault..." Not "the assault squad and any characters that have joined said squad may assault..."

People will spend their lives arguing on threads like this. Facts and opinons remain the same.
The rules are slightly unclear
Space marine players want to justify it.
Other players want to deny it.

This isnt going to change until theres an faq. so reciting the rules back and forth to one another isnt going to change much. Just play it how you want too with your mates. Lets face it, youre not gonna play 99% of the dudes on here!

You're completely missing the point of this entire section of the forum.

It's pointless in this case to say that it's pointless to discuss rules in here. This is a rules discussion forum. What exactly are you expecting to come of this statement? It's equally pointless to say "just play it how you want to!" Yeah, we all know we can do that - that's NOT the point of the discussion. What you said here was completely not constructive and entirely beside the point.

And, to refute your point, the rule doesn't need to specify "and any characters that are attached" - the core rules already cover this instance, where they declare that ICs that join a unit are now for all intents and purposes a part of that unit.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Correct.

D: Upon "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve" the Units get a new set of Rules: Relentless and a permission to charge. The IC who's a model in that Unit gets those rule too.

When you've done A, B, C and D you've followed the Rules.

Not quite. They already had the rules you listed in D:, at step A. When they were chose as part of the Formation, they have the rules: Shock Deployment, First The Fire, then The Blade, and, in the case of the Assault Squads, Leave No Survivors. An IC joining that Squad does NOT get those rules, AT ANY TIME, unless the rule specifically states that they can. That is from the BAB; nowhere that I have seen counters that. If they do not have the rule, they do not get the benefits. The unit gains Relentless or Chargability; but the IC does not. According to the BAB, you do not get the benefits of a Special Rule unless you HAVE that rule. This is an exception to the "an IC is a part of a unit in all ways" rule, and a pretty explicit one. Until a different rule pops up in the codex that states "as does any IC that has joined said unit," the IC has still not met the requirements for Special Rule conferral.

I see what you are saying; since the rules do not 'turn on' until after attachment, the IC, now already part of the unit, does not have to recheck on the required test for Special Rule transferal. In your opinion, since he is now a part of that unit, he gains whatever they gain as if he was bought within that unit. But I disagree, and I believe that the rules side with me on this. Even in you example, the IC in question does NOT have the Formation Rules (now the unit rules) in question, and therefore cannot gain benefit from them. The IC does not have the rule that gets the unit Relentless, therefore the IC does not get Relentless. The IC has not lost the IC type, and must make this test for any Special Rule gained or lost.

The real problem I have here, tho, is that all of this is due to some AMAZINGLY murky rules-writing that could be cleared up with a FAQ. :(

blaktoof wrote:
those models have permission to benefit from the rule not because it is a rule that affects the UNIT, but because it is a rule that affects the models from those squads.

When the rule says: "the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule" you believe this refers to the models?
Not the "Devastator Squads", the Unit that goes by that name?

So, you think that the models in the "Devastator Squads" have the Relentless Special Rule on Turn 1, when they are still off the board?

I think the RaW disagrees.

Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?

The answer to that question is "No":

The Devastator Squad does not have relentless.

It obtains that Rule later in the game: "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"
When it gets Relentless, any joined IC also gain the Relentless Rule.

The exact same thing happens for the Assault Squads. They do not have permission to charge on Turn 1, or Turn 2 or Turn 3.
They obtain permission to Charge on Turn 4 when "they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve".
When the Squad obtains permission, who get the permission? All models in the Unit. This may happen to include an IC.

Assault squad is the name of a unit. Assault squad is a unit.

I do not see where anyone gets the idea that they are 2 seperate things

KillerWabbit wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Correct.

D: Upon "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve" the Units get a new set of Rules: Relentless and a permission to charge. The IC who's a model in that Unit gets those rule too.

When you've done A, B, C and D you've followed the Rules.

Not quite. They already had the rules you listed in D:, at step A. When they were chose as part of the Formation, they have the rules: Shock Deployment, First The Fire, then The Blade, and, in the case of the Assault Squads, Leave No Survivors. An IC joining that Squad does NOT get those rules, AT ANY TIME, unless the rule specifically states that they can. That is from the BAB; nowhere that I have seen counters that. If they do not have the rule, they do not get the benefits. The unit gains Relentless or Chargability; but the IC does not. According to the BAB, you do not get the benefits of a Special Rule unless you HAVE that rule. This is an exception to the "an IC is a part of a unit in all ways" rule, and a pretty explicit one. Until a different rule pops up in the codex that states "as does any IC that has joined said unit," the IC has still not met the requirements for Special Rule conferral.

I see what you are saying; since the rules do not 'turn on' until after attachment, the IC, now already part of the unit, does not have to recheck on the required test for Special Rule transferal. In your opinion, since he is now a part of that unit, he gains whatever they gain as if he was bought within that unit. But I disagree, and I believe that the rules side with me on this. Even in you example, the IC in question does NOT have the Formation Rules (now the unit rules) in question, and therefore cannot gain benefit from them. The IC does not have the rule that gets the unit Relentless, therefore the IC does not get Relentless. The IC has not lost the IC type, and must make this test for any Special Rule gained or lost.

The real problem I have here, tho, is that all of this is due to some AMAZINGLY murky rules-writing that could be cleared up with a FAQ. :(

So you also believe that the Devastator Squads have the Relentless special Rule on deployment, even though the Rule clearly state WHEN they obtain that specific Rule?

PLEASE read the thread before posting

Most of the false arguments being posted in the last 2 pages have already been addressed.

There is way to much unmarked hiwpi going on.

It actually makes it difficult to maintain the debate

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
those models have permission to benefit from the rule not because it is a rule that affects the UNIT, but because it is a rule that affects the models from those squads.

When the rule says: "the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule" you believe this refers to the models?
Not the "Devastator Squads", the Unit that goes by that name?

So, you think that the models in the "Devastator Squads" have the Relentless Special Rule on Turn 1, when they are still off the board?

I think the RaW disagrees.

Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?

The answer to that question is "No":

The Devastator Squad does not have relentless.

It obtains that Rule later in the game: "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"
When it gets Relentless, any joined IC also gain the Relentless Rule.

The exact same thing happens for the Assault Squads. They do not have permission to charge on Turn 1, or Turn 2 or Turn 3.
They obtain permission to Charge on Turn 4 when "they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve".
When the Squad obtains permission, who get the permission? All models in the Unit. This may happen to include an IC.

The models from the skyhammer annihilation force have the 4 special rules for that formation before deployment.

Some of the rules do not have an affect until certain actions are met, but the special rule that gives that affect (ie the 4 special rules they have for being organized into this formation) they have prior to any game turn, and deployment.

So the models in the dev squad have the special rule "first the fire then the blade" prior to turn 1, but it does not grant relentless until turn 1.

The special rule that gives them these abilities as called out by the RAW are given prior to deployment, not when the event that allows them to do something triggers. ie the models have first the fire then the blade, which is the special rule- which grants a special rule at a specific time for a specific time in this case, prior to turn 1. They do not gain their formation special rule 'first the fire then the blade' after deployment at some event happening, that is not how formation special rules work.

so the RAW does not disagree, your above statements are just not correct.

and again can you find anywhere in the latter 3 rules that states it affects the units? The first rule does, so yes an attached IC would benefit, as it is a rule that affects units.

 Jambles wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
For me, It boils down to the wording " the assault squad may assault..." Not "the assault squad and any characters that have joined said squad may assault..."

People will spend their lives arguing on threads like this. Facts and opinons remain the same.
The rules are slightly unclear
Space marine players want to justify it.
Other players want to deny it.

This isnt going to change until theres an faq. so reciting the rules back and forth to one another isnt going to change much. Just play it how you want too with your mates. Lets face it, youre not gonna play 99% of the dudes on here!

You're completely missing the point of this entire section of the forum.

It's pointless in this case to say that it's pointless to discuss rules in here. This is a rules discussion forum. What exactly are you expecting to come of this statement? It's equally pointless to say "just play it how you want to!" Yeah, we all know we can do that - that's NOT the point of the discussion. What you said here was completely not constructive and entirely beside the point.

And, to refute your point, the rule doesn't need to specify "and any characters that are attached" - the core rules already cover this instance, where they declare that ICs that join a unit are now for all intents and purposes a part of that unit.

Not sure how my opinion is any less constructive than your response but okay Rambles

 jokerkd wrote:
Assault squad is the name of a unit. Assault squad is a unit.

I do not see where anyone gets the idea that they are 2 seperate things

the unit name "assault squad" is the name of a datasheet that is purchased for a detachment/formation(or not if unbound) that contains models.

those models make up a unit on the table.

I can join a Skitarii IC, an INQ IC, and a Sob IC to that unit.

Those ICs are not models purchased from the datasheet unit name "assault squad".

the unit name of the datasheet and a unit on the table are two different things.

KillerWabbit wrote:
The IC does not have the rule that gets the unit Relentless, therefore the IC does not get Relentless.

Missed that part. And i agree, the IC does not have the Rule than grants Relentless. The Devastator Squad does though. And what does their Rule do?

Grant Relentless to the Unit. To ALL the models in that Unit. It's unfortunate, but the Rules is granted to the Unit. Nothing says "The models of this formation only, get Relentless" Therefore the entire "Devastator Squad" gets Relentless.

The same applies to Assault Squads and charging.