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Im going to try and make this as simple as possible:

-IC Joins the Devastator unit before deployment

-Drop Pod Comes down Devastators come out

-Thanks to "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule the Devastators get the Relentless Special Rule on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike

Now we look at what it says under Independent Characters and Special Rules:

SPECIAL RULES under the Independent Character Section of the Rulebook page 166:

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special Rules are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."

So because it is not specified in the "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule that an Independent Character would benefit from it he cannot use it, which means he cannot use the Relentless Special Rule because he is not able to use the First the Fire then the Blade Special Rule.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Because i repeat: "the Special Rules entry under Independent Characters" is not at all relevant.
It is only relevant when an IC joins a Unit with a Special Rule.
Does the Devastator Squad have the Relentless Special Rule when the Game starts, Yes or No?

Yes they start the game with the "First the Fire then the Blade" Special Rule because they are part of the Formation that comes with it. It is what gives the Devastators Relentless.

 Frozocrone wrote:
So let me get this straight:

Pro IC charge/relentless = IC counts as unit for all rules purposes.

Con IC charge/relentless = Special rules do not confer upon the IC from the unit and vice versa.

Is this the two arguments made? I'm tempted to just roll off for it if there is a disagreement in game.

That would be the argument yes. Except it's not really because Glameron is confusing Confer for Benefit and then using the words interchangeably. He also keeps mixing up Units and Models, but doesn't seem to think the distinction is very important.

Lance845 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
So let me get this straight:
Pro IC charge/relentless = IC counts as unit for all rules purposes.
Con IC charge/relentless = Special rules do not confer upon the IC from the unit and vice versa.
Is this the two arguments made? I'm tempted to just roll off for it if there is a disagreement in game.

That would be the argument yes. Except it's not really because Glameron is confusing Confer for Benefit and then using the words interchangeably. He also keeps mixing up Units and Models, but doesn't seem to think the distinction is very important.

Have to excuse Lancer, he is exaggerating things because he is upset that I am disagreeing with him and as you can see acting immaturely about it. He feels that attacking my character will win him the argument even though he has admitted to not even having the rules in front of him several times and feels compelled to make things up to try and make himself look like he is in the right.

However that is the basis of the argument, a friendly debate turned sour by the poor attitude of one who disagrees with me.

Lance845 wrote:

Trystis wrote:
[

So by this logic if I run a harlequin masque and join a shadowseer to a squad of banshees they can all charge after running. Interesting. I bet there are a tons of ways this interpretation could be abused.

You would have to quote me the relevant rules. I don't play Harlequin. I would be happy to read them though.

Sure,

"Rising Crescendo: From the start of the second turn, all units in this detachment that have the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn."

This

 gmaleron wrote:


-Thanks to "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule the Devastators get the Relentless Special Rule on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike

Is not what that rule does.

It gives relentless to the unit. Not the devastators.

Lance845 wrote:
This

 gmaleron wrote:

-Thanks to "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule the Devastators get the Relentless Special Rule on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike

Is not what that rule does.
It gives relentless to the unit. Not the devastators.

*Its

And yes it is, that is RAW from the Rules themselves, but nah they have to be wrong to satisfy you right?

Trystis wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Trystis wrote:
[

So by this logic if I run a harlequin masque and join a shadowseer to a squad of banshees they can all charge after running. Interesting. I bet there are a tons of ways this interpretation could be abused.

You would have to quote me the relevant rules. I don't play Harlequin. I would be happy to read them though.

Sure,

"Rising Crescendo: From the start of the second turn, all units in this detachment that have the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn."

So if you have a IC that has fleet, and you add him to a unit from the detachment then the IC, while in that unit can run and charge on the same turn.

 gmaleron wrote:
Im going to try and make this as simple as possible:

-IC Joins the Devastator unit before deployment

-Drop Pod Comes down Devastators come out

-Thanks to "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule the Devastators Unit get the Relentless Special Rule on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike

Now we look at what it says under Independent Characters and Special Rules:

SPECIAL RULES under the Independent Character Section of the Rulebook page 166:

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special Rules are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."

So because it is not specified in the "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule that an Independent Character would benefit from it he cannot use it, which means he cannot use the Relentless Special Rule because he is not able to use the First the Fire then the Blade Special Rule.

See above where you are making a mistake.

Asmodai has a good example for you: Command Squad Apothecary has an Item (it could have been a Special Rule) that give FNP to his Unit. The IC cannot benefit?

 gmaleron wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Because i repeat: "the Special Rules entry under Independent Characters" is not at all relevant.
It is only relevant when an IC joins a Unit with a Special Rule.
Does the Devastator Squad have the Relentless Special Rule when the Game starts, Yes or No?

Yes they start the game with the "First the Fire then the Blade" Special Rule because they are part of the Formation that comes with it. It is what gives the Devastators Relentless.

Ah, so you are asserting that before they start the Game, the Devastator Squad have the Relentless Special Rule listed in their profile? gotcha.

I'm sorry but that is a clear mistake. The RaW tell you when they get Relentless, and not before:
"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"

Please follow the Rules.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
This

 gmaleron wrote:

-Thanks to "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule the Devastators get the Relentless Special Rule on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike

Is not what that rule does.
It gives relentless to the unit. Not the devastators.

*Its

And yes it is, that is RAW from the Rules themselves, but nah they have to be wrong to satisfy you right?

This

Is RAW. Devastators is not the name of anything. Maybe a model? Devastator Squad however is the name of a unit. The unit gains the special rule "Relentless" WHEN THEY ARRIVE. That means every model in the unit gains it when they arrive.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Ah, so you are asserting that before they start the Game, the Devastator Squad have the Relentless Special Rule listed in their profile? gotcha.
I'm sorry but that is a clear mistake. The RaW tell you when they get Relentless, and not before:
"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"
Please follow the Rules.

That is not what I said at all, I said they come with "First the Fire then the Blade" Special Rule before the game start, stop making stuff up.

Lance845 wrote:

Jesus man you are a joke! I wrote the entire thing out earlier and was explaining a specific portion of that in that quote to Blacktalos, you really are desperate to try and prove me wrong aren't you? The fact you are going through my posts to try and make me look bad is proof! Really, so a Devastator Squad is not long a Devastator Squad? Seriously can you hear yourself? My IQ is dropping... You are REALLY being technical dude, im just getting to the point and you want everything word for word, might need to chill out a bit your getting way to worked up over this.

 gmaleron wrote:
That is not what I said at all, I said they come with "First the Fire then the Blade" Special Rule before the game start, stop making stuff up.

My Question:
Does the Devastator Squad have the Relentless Special Rule when the Game starts, Yes or No?

Your Reply:

Yes they start the game with the "First the Fire then the Blade" Special Rule because they are part of the Formation that comes with it. It is what gives the Devastators Relentless.

Don't start your answer with "Yes" if you are now asserting the Answer to the above was "No".

Shall we continue with your answer of:
No, the Devastator Squad do not have the Relentless Special Rule when the Game starts.

Or maybe you can read the entire thing and see what I was getting at instead of jumping to conclusions? Because I clearly explained myself in that sentence, to make your technical self happy:

"They would not start the game with Relentless but because they have the "First Fire then the Blade Special Rule they would get Relentless on the turn they arrive from reserves"

Lance845 wrote:

Trystis wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Trystis wrote:
[

So by this logic if I run a harlequin masque and join a shadowseer to a squad of banshees they can all charge after running. Interesting. I bet there are a tons of ways this interpretation could be abused.

You would have to quote me the relevant rules. I don't play Harlequin. I would be happy to read them though.

Sure,

"Rising Crescendo: From the start of the second turn, all units in this detachment that have the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn."

So if you have a IC that has fleet, and you add him to a unit from the detachment then the IC, while in that unit can run and charge on the same turn.

So the shadow seer would no longer be a unit from the harlequin detachment when it joined the other unit?

 gmaleron wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Ah, so you are asserting that before they start the Game, the Devastator Squad have the Relentless Special Rule listed in their profile? gotcha.
I'm sorry but that is a clear mistake. The RaW tell you when they get Relentless, and not before:
"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"
Please follow the Rules.

That is not what I said at all, I said they come with "First the Fire then the Blade" Special Rule before the game start, stop making stuff up.

Lance845 wrote:

Jesus man you are a joke! I wrote the entire thing out earlier and was explaining a specific portion of that in that quote to Blacktalos, you really are desperate to try and prove me wrong aren't you? The fact you are going through my posts to try and make me look bad is proof! Really, so a Devastator Squad is not long a Devastator Squad? Seriously can you hear yourself? My IQ is dropping... You are REALLY being technical dude, im just getting to the point and you want everything word for word, might need to chill out a bit your getting way to worked up over this.

When I ask you to quote rules or you claim something is RAW you need to be technical. Benefit and Confer are not the same thing. Neither is model and unit. And neither are devastators and devastator squads.

I know what you were getting at:
"First the Fire then the Blade" does not confer to the IC. And i've already agreed to such. Because of all the p166 support you have.

But let's move on from that.
- the Devastator Squad do not have the Relentless Special Rule when the Game starts.

When does the Devastator Squad obtain that Special Rule, and what models are in the Devastator Squad when the Squad gets the Rule?

Lance845 wrote:
When I ask you to quote rules or you claim something is RAW you need to be technical. Benefit and Confer are not the same thing. Neither is model and unit. And neither are devastators and devastator squads.

Well when you decide to ask me to "quote rules" ill do that, instead of jus going on about "pics please"

Trystis wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Trystis wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

Trystis wrote:
[

So by this logic if I run a harlequin masque and join a shadowseer to a squad of banshees they can all charge after running. Interesting. I bet there are a tons of ways this interpretation could be abused.

You would have to quote me the relevant rules. I don't play Harlequin. I would be happy to read them though.

Sure,

"Rising Crescendo: From the start of the second turn, all units in this detachment that have the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn."

So if you have a IC that has fleet, and you add him to a unit from the detachment then the IC, while in that unit can run and charge on the same turn.

So the shadow seer would no longer be a unit from the harlequin detachment when it joined the other unit?

When a IC joins a unit it is considered a part of that unit FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES. If it has fleet it meets the requirements in the Rising Crescendo Special rule. It is a member of a unit in the detachment that has fleet. Why would it not get the benefit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
When I ask you to quote rules or you claim something is RAW you need to be technical. Benefit and Confer are not the same thing. Neither is model and unit. And neither are devastators and devastator squads.

Well when you decide to ask me to "quote rules" ill do that, instead of jus going on about "pics please"

Well you cannot decide if it's Unit or Model or Benefit or Confer. I figure it's best if you just show me a picture of the page so that we can clear up what is you cutting corners in writing out the rules and what is the actual rules.

 BlackTalos wrote:
But let's move on from that.
- the Devastator Squad do not have the Relentless Special Rule when the Game starts.
When does the Devastator Squad obtain that Special Rule, and what models are in the Devastator Squad when the Squad gets the Rule?

First Fire then the Blade:

"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Assault Force have the Relentless Special Rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

The above is RAW, they get the Relentless Special Rule the turn they arrive from Deep Strike and it would be a Devastator Squad arriving from Deep Strike.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
So let me get this straight:
Pro IC charge/relentless = IC counts as unit for all rules purposes.
Con IC charge/relentless = Special rules do not confer upon the IC from the unit and vice versa.
Is this the two arguments made? I'm tempted to just roll off for it if there is a disagreement in game.

That would be the argument yes. Except it's not really because Glameron is confusing Confer for Benefit and then using the words interchangeably. He also keeps mixing up Units and Models, but doesn't seem to think the distinction is very important.

Have to excuse Lancer, he is exaggerating things because he is upset that I am disagreeing with him and as you can see acting immaturely about it. He feels that attacking my character will win him the argument even though he has admitted to not even having the rules in front of him several times and feels compelled to make things up to try and make himself look like he is in the right.

However that is the basis of the argument, a friendly debate turned sour by the poor attitude of one who disagrees with me.

Thank you for the clarification.
It's quite possible everyone here could agree to disagree for a long time so I would say house rule it one way or the other if there is a debate within your respective metas. No need to get carried away over GW rules writing

 gmaleron wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
But let's move on from that.
- the Devastator Squad do not have the Relentless Special Rule when the Game starts.
When does the Devastator Squad obtain that Special Rule, and what models are in the Devastator Squad when the Squad gets the Rule?

First Fire then the Blade:

"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Assault Force have the Relentless Special Rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

The above is RAW, they get the Relentless Special Rule the turn they arrive from Deep Strike and it would be a Devastator Squad arriving from Deep Strike.

Is a IC that is joined with the Dev Squad in reserves a part of the Dev squad when they leave the drop pod?

Lance845 wrote:
Is a IC that is joined with the Dev Squad in reserves a part of the Dev squad when they leave the drop pod?

Yes he is, however this is where we start to disagree and its all about the fact that the only reason the Devastator Squad has relentless the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves is because of the "First the Fire then the Blade" Special Rule.

Now I really do understand where you are coming from, however its how Special Rules are described under Independent Characters:

SPECIAL RULES under the Independent Character Section of the Rulebook page 166:

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special Rules are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."

Now I have underlined the points in that small paragraph that to me make it seem like he would not be able to benefit from the Relentless Special Rule that the Devastator Squad gets. The only reason I say this is because it took another Special Rule (First the Fire then the Blade) to give them Relntless in the first place, and since it does not "specify in the rule itself" I just don't see how the Commander is getting Relentless.

And to be frank I apologize if I was acting like a dick, middle of a 12 hour shift on top of my love of the game may have gotten the best of me.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Is a IC that is joined with the Dev Squad in reserves a part of the Dev squad when they leave the drop pod?

Yes he is, however this is where we start to disagree and its all about the fact that the only reason the Devastator Squad has relentless the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves is because of the "First the Fire then the Blade" Special Rule.

Now I really do understand where you are coming from, however its how Special Rules are described under Independent Characters:

SPECIAL RULES under the Independent Character Section of the Rulebook page 166:

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special Rules are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."

Now I have underlined the points in that small paragraph that to me make it seem like he would not be able to benefit from the Relentless Special Rule that the Devastator Squad gets. The only reason I say this is because it took another Special Rule (First the Fire then the Blade) to give them Relntless in the first place, and since it does not "specify in the rule itself" I just don't see how the Commander is getting Relentless.

And to be frank I apologize if I was acting like a dick, middle of a 12 hour shift on top of my love of the game may have gotten the best of me.

None of the stuff you underlined matters. Because the IC can benefit from the rule even if it doesn't have it. The rule is THE UNIT gets relentless. And at the time that that triggers the IC is part of the UNIT. Therefore the IC gets relentless. Just because it does not have the trigger condition does not mean it is not in the area of effect when it goes off.

As for charging on the turn it arrives. Again, it does not HAVE the rule, but the rule triggers to the units when they arrive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, the special rule is.

Upon condition x target gains y.

The IC is considered part of target for ALL RULES PURPOSES.

I get what your saying man and I understand it doesn't "trigger" until after the unit arrives and he is already apart of it but aren't we still ignoring the part of the having to specifically say it confers to the Independent Character? Not talking about Relentless, but rather the "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule as the IC does not start with that Special Rule because he has to join the Devastator Squad who come with it when your purchase the Formation.

 gmaleron wrote:
I get what your saying man and I understand it doesn't "trigger" until after the unit arrives and he is already apart of it but aren't we still ignoring the part of the having to specifically say it confers to the Independent Character? Not talking about Relentless, but rather the "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule as the IC does not start with that Special Rule because he has to join the Devastator Squad who come with it when your purchase the Formation.

No. Because Blade does not give a direct benefit itself. It triggers a buff to a unit. Blade does not give any benefit in and of itself. It lays out conditions in which other units gain benefits. If those conditions are met, the unit gains the benefit. Is the IC part of the unit? Yeah? It gains the benefit. Lets pretend that Skyhammer also included a squad of Terminators. Guess what? The rule still works exactly the same way with the Terminators there. The Units it targets get the benefits it lays out under the conditions it sets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is why it is a formation special rule and not a unit special rule.

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
I get what your saying man and I understand it doesn't "trigger" until after the unit arrives and he is already apart of it but aren't we still ignoring the part of the having to specifically say it confers to the Independent Character? Not talking about Relentless, but rather the "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule as the IC does not start with that Special Rule because he has to join the Devastator Squad who come with it when your purchase the Formation.

No. Because Blade does not give a direct benefit itself. It triggers a buff to a unit. Blade does not give any benefit in and of itself. It lays out conditions in which other units gain benefits.

I understand that yes it does give out benefits, however it is still listed as a "Special Rule" and really there is nothing that says he can ignore the the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character portion of the Independent Character's rules in regards to "Special Rules." To me it seems they may have listed it as a "Special Rule" for the sole purpose of preventing Independent Characters from joining the unit. That and there is only one "Special Rules" not Formation Special Rules or Unit Special Rules in the Rulebook, its a RAW vs RAI debate. I am not sold completely on that opinion and I actually wrote GW about it and will let you know if you wish what the say when I get a response. Agree to disagree, mainly just because everywhere ive played including some big National Tournaments recently i've never seen any character join a unit from a Formation and get their Special Rules.

Consider for a moment Objective Secured.

The detachment has a special rule called "Objective Secured" which itself grants a special rule also called "Objective Secured" to specific units.

Every unit in a CAD does not have Objective Secured because it's listed in the CAD. Only the troops that the formation special rules gives it to.

First Fire then the Blade is not given to every unit in the Skyhammer. The Skyhammer has it and then it gives it's benefits to the units it specifies.

 gmaleron wrote:
I get what your saying man and I understand it doesn't "trigger" until after the unit arrives and he is already apart of it but aren't we still ignoring the part of the having to specifically say it confers to the Independent Character? Not talking about Relentless, but rather the "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule as the IC does not start with that Special Rule because he has to join the Devastator Squad who come with it when your purchase the Formation.

No, because of how "conferring" works.

When the RaW says: "the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character"
This means exactly what it says: Any Special Rules that the Unit has cannot be claimed by the IC: You can't say "He's in the Unit, so he now has "First Fire then the Blade" "

That would be conferring the Special Rule they have ("First Fire then the Blade") onto the Character.

If, however, a model (The apothecary) or a Unit (The Devastator Squad) have a Special Rule of their own (Narthecium) or ("First Fire then the Blade") that *gives* an effect or a Special rule to the Unit (It could be another Unit, it could be their own Unit), then the Rule obtained: Feel No Pain or Relentless, are obtained (can be obtained) by every single model.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:
First Fire then the Blade is not given to every unit in the Skyhammer. The Skyhammer has it and then it gives it's benefits to the units it specifies.

But we are agreed that the IC never gets the "First Fire then the Blade" special Rule right?

He only gets to obtain the effects of that rule when they are being "dished out"?

 BlackTalos wrote:
\

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:
First Fire then the Blade is not given to every unit in the Skyhammer. The Skyhammer has it and then it gives it's benefits to the units it specifies.

But we are agreed that the IC never gets the "First Fire then the Blade" special Rule right?

He only gets to obtain the effects of that rule when they are being "dished out"?

Correct.But it is worth specifying that NONE of the units in the Skyhammer have the rule. The formation does. The units get exactly what the rule tells them they get and nothing more. Devestators Relentless on the turn they arrive. Assault the ability to charge on the turn they arrive (which is not, itself, a special rule the UNIT carries. Just a stipulation added to the unit granted by the formation.)

If you don't confuse 'benefit' with 'confer', the rules issue is pretty clear.

ICs do not need have to have the special rule to benefit from rules which affect the entire Unit.

Conferring the special rule is different from Benefiting from it.

Lance845 wrote:
Correct.But it is worth specifying that NONE of the units in the Skyhammer have the rule. The formation does. The units get exactly what the rule tells them they get and nothing more. Devestators Relentless on the turn they arrive. Assault the ability to charge on the turn they arrive (which is not, itself, a special rule the UNIT carries. Just a stipulation added to the unit granted by the formation.)

I see, that kinda makes sense, though when i read:
"the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any Special Rules that those units gain"

It does make it sound like the Units get "First Fire then the Blade" as a special rule. I would have though only models or Units get special Rules, not "the Formation". Just as command benefits also apply to Units and Models or to the Warlord (again this would be the warlord model)