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Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





Dark Angels are probably my favorite Loyalist legion, with my favorite Loyalist Primarch. However there's one part if their full that always bothered me. It is stated in numerous sources that the Dark Angels and their Successors collectively call themselves The Unforgiven.

Um... who exactly calls themselves Unforgiven? Is it only members of the Inner Circle? If it's the rank and file members, what do they think they're Unforgiven for? The only thing i could think of is they can claim it's for their guilt for having arrived too late to save the Emperor during the Siege on Terra maybe... but that's just my inference.

Also, the Ravenwing are sent to investigate sightings of the Fallen, But since only Ravenwing Knights are Inner Circle, they don't know what they're looking for....

What are they told about their hunt? How has noone caught on yet? No pun intended...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/16 22:06:55


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





They are unforgiven because half their legion fell to chaos, and until they remove all the heretical filth and make them repeant and cleanse their souls (via killing them) they see themselves as unforgiven for what their brothers did.

So only those who know about it would call themselves the unforgiven,

However some use the zeal in which they hunt the fallen to make them out to be the "bad guys"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.s

Most of the legion doesn't hunt the fallen, most of the 1st/ 2nd company do that, with aid from the 3rd company, most of the others are off fighting other imperial enemies with a few inner circle.members around to know if they run across a fallen.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/16 18:57:15


 Wyzilla wrote:

Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.


Burn the Heretic
Kill the mutant
Purge the Unclean 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





New Hampshire, USA

The Dark Angels are unforgiven because they didn't assist the loyalists during the heresy. They went home to fight Luther andthe other Callibanite astartes instead of choosing a side.

The Lions first act a Primarch was to disobey a direct order from the Emperor (destroy the library of the Wolf clan or whatever).

Then he lead an attack on a loyalist world to capture titan sized. Siege tanks for the Iron Warriors to use on Terra.

Khorne Daemons 4000+pts
 
   
Made in cn
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





The Dark Angels and their successor chapters call themselves the Unforgiven. Although I'm not sure if anyone outside of their chapter ever heard them speaking that name.

Those outside of the Inner Circle would probably know about as much as the outsiders: being the first legion (which they consider an great honor and responsibility) and one of the few largely intact legions during the Horus Heresy, their untimely arrival to Terra was unforgivable. The Dark Angels are known for being hard to forgive, it's likely outsiders see their self-loathing as just another part of their nature.

As for why no one else has caught on yet, the answer is because they have. Caldor Draigo knew about this and used it to force the entire Dark Angel Chapter to assist him. It's likely some more subtle inquisitors knew of this without meeting an untimely end, but just doesn't see the truth as a cause for concern.

But the Dark Angels does take great care in preventing the truth going out. They keep no mission records, or at least none that the outsiders can find; they speak little of their objective to others. During a hunt, they always try to swoop in first and leave with their prize before their allies can figure out who or what they caught. Should their "allies" caught on to their missions, misfortunes tend to lead these clueless armies to disappear. Not even the Ravenwings, apart from a selected few who are part of the inner circle, know the truth. As soldiers, the Ravenwing Marines need not to know the purpose behind the hunt, they just ride in and finish their mission. Furthermore, being the Dark Angels, no doubt if words get out that certain individuals within the company has been pondering on matters whose revelations are not yet theirs to receive, the Chapter's Interrogator-Chaplains would no doubt pay them a visit in private.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/06/16 19:36:27


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

I don't think he's having difficulty figuring out the reasons for them being the Unforgiven, more why they openly refer to themselves as the Unforgiven in their Chapters when only a small number know why they call themselves that.

Its silly to keep the secret then wave it in the Chapter's Face when asking why is probably a good way to get a smack in the face and a visit from a Chaplain.
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Massachusetts

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I don't think he's having difficulty figuring out the reasons for them being the Unforgiven, more why they openly refer to themselves as the Unforgiven in their Chapters when only a small number know why they call themselves that.

Its silly to keep the secret then wave it in the Chapter's Face when asking why is probably a good way to get a smack in the face and a visit from a Chaplain.


This. He's asking why they collectively call themselves the Unforgiven when supposedly only the Inner Circle knows the chapter's secret. The majority of the chapter wouldn't understand why they were unforgiven.
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





I also know that some non inner circle know of the Fall as its telling is revealed in parts to a Marine as he gains rank and experience but the biggest secret is that the Fallen still exist, revealed only to Inner Circle members.

But it always comes back to that line "They collectively refer to themselves as the Unforgiven... and my question is still WHO actually refers to themselves that way? And why hasn't it been questioned as tho WHY?

"Welcome to the club, Brother Noobus, Never falter, my Battle-brother, in our sacred duty to cleanse our ancient dishonor... for we are all Unforgiven..."
"Oh, thanks Brother Captain Angeliphim... But why?"
"Sshhhhhh... It's a seeecret!"





Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's also worth questioning "Collectively" as to the whereabouts of Caliban itself and their Primarch. Especially the new recruits.


Welcome to the Disciples of Caliban.... Hey what's a Caliban?

REMEMBER THE LION! Oh? Where did he go?

I find it hard to believe that noone bothered to know the history of their Primarch....

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/16 20:55:53


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Based on the legacy of caliban series (is that what its called? The Master of Sanctity and Ravenwing books are what I mean.) I got the impression that the basic marines know that the Lion is dead and if any of them are curious enough to ask how he died they get sent to the Ravenwing and get told some more secrets and if any of them see things like members of the Fallen before joining the Inner Circle they either get bumped up into the Circle or have an accident involving a bolter to the head.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





Is there really a precedent for the Dark Angels calling themselves "the Fallen" outside of an Inner Circle context? Could it just be that we see it a lot in the lore (it's a cool sounding alternative to other proper nouns for the chapter) as "observers", when in the context of the setting itself the regular rank-and-file Dangels don't refer to themselves that way?
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Massachusetts

 Jambles wrote:
Is there really a precedent for the Dark Angels calling themselves "the Fallen" outside of an Inner Circle context? Could it just be that we see it a lot in the lore (it's a cool sounding alternative to other proper nouns for the chapter) as "observers", when in the context of the setting itself the regular rank-and-file Dangels don't refer to themselves that way?


The Fallen are the original traitors from the legion, the Dark Angels never refer to themselves as such. They refer to themselves as the Unforgiven.
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





It has just been put in every side bar bit shown of all the 20 Original Legions, that lists Chapter name, Primarch, Home Planet, Successors, and a quick "Fun Fact" usually credited to an inquisitor.

When I get home I can make actual references.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

As a handy "cover story", they arrived late to the Battle of Terra. Without them, the Emperor had to face Horus "unsupported", the rest is history.

Why were they late to the Battle of Terra? a neophyte might ask.

He, of course, will be given 300 years of remedial bolter-drill and watched *very* closely.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





They are called the Unforgiven because they often pass gas at parties and get-togethers, usually just as dessert is being served.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

When you are recruited as a dark angel, you are filled with stories and allegories of previous marines returning home to find some insidious presence has taken over their home and turned it against them, when promoted a little further in the inner circle, you learn you were told a lie then you are told the "truth"

That there are traitor dark angels running around and you must help find and capture them, but don't tell anyone else as it would destroy the confidence of the uninitiated, then you advance a little further within the inner circle, you are told that you hadn't been told the whole truth, you are told that chaos infected your home world and you must hunt down those people.

More promotion, now you are told that.... Again you were not told the whole truth....but this time!!!! Yep lied to again, you are told that a monster called Luther led the traitor marines against your primarch, on caliban no less.

Now you are part of the inner circle, you know the whole truth....but you don't, only 1 person know what really happened, the chapter master.

So from day 1 dark angels are surrounded by secrets and lies, taught never to trust, to harbour vengeance above all, as you progress you feel betrayed and lied to by your own brothers, but it's not their fault, it's the fallen fault, so you obsess and seek vengeance towers them over all things, to regain YOUR honour, you chapters honour, you will be forgiven for the sins you have committed to save your chapter, until then....you are unforgiven.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

Even the Supreme Grand Master doesn't know everything. Only the Emperor and the Watchers know that Lion is alive.
   
Made in ca
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Calgary

I think that the overall DA and it's successor chapters see themselves as unforgiven because they did not arrive in Terra on time to assist the Emperor during the siege of Terra. The inner circle, however, sees it as they are unforgiven due to the transgressions of the fallen and cannot be absolved until the last traitor was made to repent. I don't think ALL the chapter's hold this view as I know there's one that believes itself pure instead of needing to be saved. I'll have to look up the codex when I get home to see that though. Who came up with it or where that title is spoken - that I'm not sure about.

Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman. 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Bear in mind that the Dark Angels get heavily indoctrinated not to ask questions long before they get taught anything worthwhile.

They'd know a highly stylised version of the legions origin (i.e. the name of the Lion and the world of Caliban) but very little else.

Anyone asking questions is either discouraged or elevated - bear in mind that one guy gets pulled through to the Ravenwing for asking "what happened to the Primarch, anyway?" - and is answered (at the time) "Horus killed him."


Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Even the Supreme Grand Master doesn't know everything. Only the Emperor and the Watchers know that Lion is alive.
I thought that the Supreme Grand Master knows basically everything, including the location of Luther as well as the Lion.

EDIT: NM, Watchers know where the Lion is, Azrael knows where Luther is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/17 07:53:46


5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Even the Supreme Grand Master doesn't know everything. Only the Emperor and the Watchers know that Lion is alive.


Didn't say everything, I said the "truth", a better response from you would have been "the real truth, the whole truth?"

Azrael has access to Luther, so it's possible he knows everything up until the primarch vanished, possible.
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





 Formosa wrote:
When you are recruited as a dark angel, you are filled with stories and allegories of previous marines returning home to find some insidious presence has taken over their home and turned it against them, when promoted a little further in the inner circle, you learn you were told a lie then you are told the "truth"

That there are traitor dark angels running around and you must help find and capture them, but don't tell anyone else as it would destroy the confidence of the uninitiated, then you advance a little further within the inner circle, you are told that you hadn't been told the whole truth, you are told that chaos infected your home world and you must hunt down those people.

More promotion, now you are told that.... Again you were not told the whole truth....but this time!!!! Yep lied to again, you are told that a monster called Luther led the traitor marines against your primarch, on caliban no less.

Now you are part of the inner circle, you know the whole truth....but you don't, only 1 person know what really happened, the chapter master.

So from day 1 dark angels are surrounded by secrets and lies, taught never to trust, to harbour vengeance above all, as you progress you feel betrayed and lied to by your own brothers, but it's not their fault, it's the fallen fault, so you obsess and seek vengeance towers them over all things, to regain YOUR honour, you chapters honour, you will be forgiven for the sins you have committed to save your chapter, until then....you are unforgiven.


So the Dark Angels are the Scientologists of the 41st Millennium.

   
Made in ca
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





 Orblivion wrote:
 Jambles wrote:
Is there really a precedent for the Dark Angels calling themselves "the Fallen" outside of an Inner Circle context? Could it just be that we see it a lot in the lore (it's a cool sounding alternative to other proper nouns for the chapter) as "observers", when in the context of the setting itself the regular rank-and-file Dangels don't refer to themselves that way?


The Fallen are the original traitors from the legion, the Dark Angels never refer to themselves as such. They refer to themselves as the Unforgiven.


Sorry, yes, Unforgiven is what I meant to say.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Rasclomalum wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
When you are recruited as a dark angel, you are filled with stories and allegories of previous marines returning home to find some insidious presence has taken over their home and turned it against them, when promoted a little further in the inner circle, you learn you were told a lie then you are told the "truth"

That there are traitor dark angels running around and you must help find and capture them, but don't tell anyone else as it would destroy the confidence of the uninitiated, then you advance a little further within the inner circle, you are told that you hadn't been told the whole truth, you are told that chaos infected your home world and you must hunt down those people.

More promotion, now you are told that.... Again you were not told the whole truth....but this time!!!! Yep lied to again, you are told that a monster called Luther led the traitor marines against your primarch, on caliban no less.

Now you are part of the inner circle, you know the whole truth....but you don't, only 1 person know what really happened, the chapter master.

So from day 1 dark angels are surrounded by secrets and lies, taught never to trust, to harbour vengeance above all, as you progress you feel betrayed and lied to by your own brothers, but it's not their fault, it's the fallen fault, so you obsess and seek vengeance towers them over all things, to regain YOUR honour, you chapters honour, you will be forgiven for the sins you have committed to save your chapter, until then....you are unforgiven.


So the Dark Angels are the Scientologists of the 41st Millennium.



Haha I never made that connection, but yes... I suppose they are!
   
Made in us
Member of the Malleus






 Formosa wrote:
When you are recruited as a dark angel, you are filled with stories and allegories of previous marines returning home to find some insidious presence has taken over their home and turned it against them, when promoted a little further in the inner circle, you learn you were told a lie then you are told the "truth"

That there are traitor dark angels running around and you must help find and capture them, but don't tell anyone else as it would destroy the confidence of the uninitiated, then you advance a little further within the inner circle, you are told that you hadn't been told the whole truth, you are told that chaos infected your home world and you must hunt down those people.

More promotion, now you are told that.... Again you were not told the whole truth....but this time!!!! Yep lied to again, you are told that a monster called Luther led the traitor marines against your primarch, on caliban no less.

Now you are part of the inner circle, you know the whole truth....but you don't, only 1 person know what really happened, the chapter master.

So from day 1 dark angels are surrounded by secrets and lies, taught never to trust, to harbour vengeance above all, as you progress you feel betrayed and lied to by your own brothers, but it's not their fault, it's the fallen fault, so you obsess and seek vengeance towers them over all things, to regain YOUR honour, you chapters honour, you will be forgiven for the sins you have committed to save your chapter, until then....you are unforgiven.


This pretty much sums it up. It all comes from the lesson that lies beget lies. and as fro the Scientology reference, this could be attributed to any religion or society that holds "Higher Mysteries" for their initiated. Free masons, Ancient pagan cults, many secret societies. It is a common tactics "Draw them in and make them a part of our group before we reveal the bad parts"

The Emperor Protects
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





United States

Unforgiven easily comes from allegories. You don't have to look much further than current religion to find examples of people seeking redemption. How much more then would humanities favorite closed minded defenders look for redemption when fully HALF of their ancestral brothers ruined the galaxy? Horus Heresy is not a secret. As you advance in rank, you learn the personal nature of chapter shame, and how all the teachings were to be taken literally not as an allegory.

"And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels" 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Schrott

 DeffDred wrote:
).

Then he lead an attack on a loyalist world to capture titan sized. Siege tanks for the Iron Warriors to use on Terra.



I know its off topic but... What Titan Sized SIege Tanks? Im curious as I enjoy construction of Uber Tanks. Are there description or images of these armored machines?

Regiment: 91st Schrott Experimental Regiment
Regiment Planet: Schrott
Specialization: Salvaged, Heavily Modified, and/or Experimental Mechanized Units.
"SIR! Are you sure this will work!?"
"I HAVE NO IDEA, PULL THE TRIGGER!!!" 91st comms chatter.  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Engine of War wrote:
 DeffDred wrote:
).

Then he lead an attack on a loyalist world to capture titan sized. Siege tanks for the Iron Warriors to use on Terra.



I know its off topic but... What Titan Sized SIege Tanks? Im curious as I enjoy construction of Uber Tanks. Are there description or images of these armored machines?


Most likely Ordinatus vehicles, the other branch of the adeptus mechanicum, see

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordinatus

they were in 40k epic, but all look ridiculous by the current stylistic theme of 40k.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Schrott

NumberZero wrote:
 Engine of War wrote:
 DeffDred wrote:
).

Then he lead an attack on a loyalist world to capture titan sized. Siege tanks for the Iron Warriors to use on Terra.



I know its off topic but... What Titan Sized SIege Tanks? Im curious as I enjoy construction of Uber Tanks. Are there description or images of these armored machines?


Most likely Ordinatus vehicles, the other branch of the adeptus mechanicum, see

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordinatus

they were in 40k epic, but all look ridiculous by the current stylistic theme of 40k.


AH I see. I already have an Ordinatus (full sized Ordinatus Majoris for 40k ). Ty for answering. I know its off topic for the thread.

Regiment: 91st Schrott Experimental Regiment
Regiment Planet: Schrott
Specialization: Salvaged, Heavily Modified, and/or Experimental Mechanized Units.
"SIR! Are you sure this will work!?"
"I HAVE NO IDEA, PULL THE TRIGGER!!!" 91st comms chatter.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






The new novel The Unforgiven actually covers this topic rather well.

While used in the fluff often, in universe the "Unforgiven" is a secret name for the collective Dark Angels and Successors, not something that is normally used.

Also, the Dark Angels literally brought it on themselves. Without major spoilers, that is all.
   
Made in no
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






The Unforgiven wouldn't be used outside those initiated into that level of secrecy. Angels of Darkness actually gives a good example of the levels of secrecy employed on a practical level. Everyone knows different things.

 raiden wrote:
They are unforgiven because half their legion fell to chaos


Nope, only the ones stationed on Caliban fell to Chaos/went Renegade. It's worth mentioning that Merir Astelan actually felt the IoM had lost its way, and so had the DA.

 Psienesis wrote:
As a handy "cover story", they arrived late to the Battle of Terra. Without them, the Emperor had to face Horus "unsupported", the rest is history.

Why were they late to the Battle of Terra? a neophyte might ask.

He, of course, will be given 300 years of remedial bolter-drill and watched *very* closely.


Have an Exalt.
   
 
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