Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well, it looks to be official -- the Gladius Strike Force Space Marine Full Company looks golden at ITC:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/

An army may not have a duplicate of any Detachment.
- Note: This includes “Decurion Style” Detachments which are comprised of multiple datasheets and Formations. They may not take duplicate Formations within the Detachment, although they make take duplicate Data Slate units within the Detachment if permitted to do so.
- Note: The Exception to this is the Space marine Battle Company which is comprised of two Demi-Company Formations within a Gladius Strike Force.

Also:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/06/15/signals-from-the-frontline-warhammer-40k-and-general-gaming-news-rumors-tactics-and-comedy-96/

- We’re going to let the Space marine Battle Company be an exception to the ITC rules as we believe the intent is for it to operate as a new formation unto itself. Good to go for Wargames Con!

Sooooooo.... which will prevail (at Wargames Con Texas, wrapping up June 21), slightly nerfed Eldar, unnerfed Space Marines, or someone else?

I imagine the same ruling will apply to the DA's version as well, eh?

The ITC also restricted super heavies to 0-1, correct? Have they exempted the Knight codex from that rule?

I'm geographically as far away from them as I could be while being on the same continent so none of this impacts me in the slightest, but its interesting watching large tourneys navigate the currents of 7th.

So basically original style list building (not using formations and detachments but picking your troops based on the original force organization chart from the codex) is not allowed in tournaments? Or is that not what Unbound means?

The nerdgasming over the Gladius Strike Force is heavy these days. Why is it a demi-squad is half a squad but a demi-company isn't half a company? *raises hand* Wait, I can answer that: because you can sell 2x the transports with each 10-man tactical squad, silly! All these 5-man squads with free razorbacks and it's like we're back to the days of the min-max las-plas of 4th Edition. Where's mauleed when you need him?

kaotkbliss wrote:
So basically original style list building (not using formations and detachments but picking your troops based on the original force organization chart from the codex) is not allowed in tournaments? Or is that not what Unbound means?

Are you familiar with the ITC ruleset?

die toten hosen wrote:

Are you familiar with the ITC ruleset?

Can't say that I am

This is really unfair to the necron considering the fact that this new formation is the strongest one in the game at the moment and the necrons most competitive options involve two of the same formations....

ITC house rules are really dumb. There is no balance and they DEFINITELY don't help

This formation rule nerfs almost all of the armies except the two most powerful at the moment. Eldar, and Space Marines are completely unhurt by it and they are EASILY the strongest armies at the moment. Necrons have literally 0 chance in a maelstrom game against Space Marines when now there can be 20 ob sec units for marines on the board

Personally I love it. Finally one can play something else than Centurions, Drop Pods or Bikes and do well in tournaments and games in general that are about objectives.

Will be running a WS CT battlecompany myself, with a Knight Gallant.

jakejackjake wrote:
This is really unfair to the necron considering the fact that this new formation is the strongest one in the game at the moment

I don't think free transports are stronger than Wraiths that can take more punishment than Captain Lysander. Depends on what you define strong as, though. Certainly the battlecompany is strong when it comes to holding objectives. Taking the heaviest punishment one can dish out, saying "derp" and proceeding as planned? Necrons.

 Runic wrote:
Personally I love it. Finally one can play something else than Centurions, Drop Pods or Bikes and do well in tournaments and games in general that are about objectives.

Will be running a WS CT battlecompany myself, with a Knight Gallant.

The formation is awesome it just makes the decurion or any necron list impossible to play against what will be the most common marines list.
Before you go telling me I am wrong try it. They literally can not beat them. With the current armies if I play my marines or borrow my friends Eldar and my opponent isn't playing one of the two of them I will not lose. I just won't.

jakejackjake wrote:

 Runic wrote:
Personally I love it. Finally one can play something else than Centurions, Drop Pods or Bikes and do well in tournaments and games in general that are about objectives.

Will be running a WS CT battlecompany myself, with a Knight Gallant.

The formation is awesome it just makes the decurion or any necron list impossible to play against what will be the most common marines list.
Before you go telling me I am wrong try it. They literally can not beat them. With the current armies if I play my marines or borrow my friends Eldar and my opponent isn't playing one of the two of them I will not lose. I just won't.

You're saying nothing one can cook up with Codex: Necrons ( or Daemons, or pretty much anything except Space Marines and Eldar ) is able to beat a Space Marines Battle Company?

No some codices will be able to counter that list, but not that one and the eldar, tau, daemons, and necron. You'd have to build specific but the thing is I'm not so sure you can with most.


If someone didn't know what I was bringing and brought a TAC list and I brought White Scars with two demi companies and optimized the list. No. Sorry no one is going to beat me unless they have the luckiest rabbits foot ever. Even if they choose deployment and go first

Everything in the list is obsec.... That's insane. You just need to not get tabled really and you should have enough points to win

It's fine, because it's how the game works but the book is good without it so it's weird that the ITC would say "hey we are going to never restrict the marines but will everyone else" like 1 wraithkinight and bla bla. Can't have to FBSC, but can totally have two demi companies. The game is never balanced though and there are always armies at a severe disadvantage


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Runic wrote:
Personally I love it. Finally one can play something else than Centurions, Drop Pods or Bikes and do well in tournaments and games in general that are about objectives.

Will be running a WS CT battlecompany myself, with a Knight Gallant.

jakejackjake wrote:
This is really unfair to the necron considering the fact that this new formation is the strongest one in the game at the moment

I don't think free transports are stronger than Wraiths that can take more punishment than Captain Lysander. Depends on what you define strong as, though. Certainly the battlecompany is strong when it comes to holding objectives. Taking the heaviest punishment one can dish out, saying "derp" and proceeding as planned? Necrons.

Really 400 in obsec vehicles and free heavy bolters is stronger than a 3+ save?

kill the spyder. They don't have RP on the first turn if they go second either

You have scout and obsec so they have to kill everything within 3inches of an objective and they are playing 400 pts down and you outrange them. Your list is incredibly strong. Good luck. You wont need it. You should table some people with that for sure against most things it may be like a loss if you don't against others your survivability with obsec everywhere will carry you. It's the best of both worlds depending on what you are against

I certainly don't think Space Marine Companies are unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination. However, I think the attitude of not just FLG but the community is hilarious.

Eldar Scatterbikes, Distortion and minor buffs to make units nobody takes playable: "OMG ELDAR OP NERF NERF NERF! THREE FALCONS CAN DEEP STRIKE ZOMG WRAITHGUARD DOOM!"

Space Marine Gladius, Grav, Skyhammer and minor buffs to make units nobody takes playable: "That's the way the game was intended to be played! So fluffy! We get to see Assault Marines, YAY!"

Am I the only one that sees the humor in this?

I'm not faulting the Frontline guys; they're just reflecting their membership. I mean, "everyone" wanted to see Companies. And the amount of relative "outrage" on Dakka was tiny -- the whole freaking 40k board was spammed with Eldar hate threads for two weeks.

For perspective, although I own 10,000+ points of Eldar models, it's mostly just stuff I had fun modelling; I can count the games I've played Eldar in the last 5 years on my fingers and toes. Mostly, I'm an Imperium guy, and then mostly Space Marines of some flavor.

The problem is they are right. If you lose a game with 36 scatter lasers on the field... and obsec jetbikes you're not very good. The same goes for the full company. You are doing something wrong if you lose and it isn't because something crazy happens


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only eldar buffs that were really awesome were bikes and wraithknights. The other ones were minor to those but it made it easy to spam and win. Other stuff was good but not in comparison. Though I like there crimson hunter one.

I don't even like the wraithguard in comparison. Bikes can moved up 6 and reliably move back 6 reliably while shooting 4 str 6 shots per turn giving them an effective threat range of 42 and safe range equivalent while being obsec and 144 shots per turn for less than 1000 pts. Tau can't even do that. I've tried and they are 1/10 as mobile when trying

Anyway I'm getting off topic. I think the formations is AWESOME. I just think the rule exception should have been thrown out completely. GW clearly intends for it to be that way

My buddy just beat me the first time with this formation. So I stayed up and ran scenarios last night over and over, and in maelstrom the formation is just light years beyond other formations and most CAD's. I have zero experience with mechanicus and all knights though because I didn't have all their rules to use with me

I just think the formation house rule they use is ridiculous and allowing it just for this is even moreso. That is all. Let everything in. I'm not saying "omg i will never face marines dammmm GW!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In a normal CAD obsec isn't a huge deal. You can deal with it, but when you have 20 obsec units and half are armored life gets tough. It really is strong and that's aweseome. I'm not complaining about that. I love it.

I agree, having a formation that emphasizes MSU is pretty cool. I've noticed that with Tyranids sometimes I just have to have more units.

I really hope people naysaying ITC has actually played in a competitive setting both with ITC and without using only the barebones GW rules.

ITC is an awesome ruleset. I use it for my events, if its good enough for the majority of big US events its got to be doing something correct

To those crying foul the double Demi Company isn't that good.you have to take both us an auxiliary detachment as well. This leaves little room for actual good units and upgrades. At 1850 you're basically taking all barebones stuff. The Spearhead Annihilation Force and Librarius conclave are much more powerful and better options if you're taking a gladius.

Two of these and a scout company is still a pretty big points investment. Welcome back 4/5 edition msu spam, I suppose!

die toten hosen wrote:
I really hope people naysaying ITC has actually played in a competitive setting both with ITC and without using only the barebones GW rules.

ITC is an awesome ruleset. I use it for my events, if its good enough for the majority of big US events its got to be doing something correct

Of course most of them haven't.

Personally I love the ITC format. They are very consistent with their approach to new rules, in that they don't want to change the game more than a few nudges, and they want people to be able to use their book options. I'm not sure why cron players are whining so much unless they just want to spam canoptek harvests. If harvest had a "take two and you get THIS" ability they absolutely would let it in.

My only gripe with ITC is the purge the alien primary mission. I think it should be 1 KP for every 10% of your total number of units is killed. (IE 3 units per point for a 30 unit army.) It just seems ridiculously punishing if your army has a lot of units as is.

die toten hosen wrote:
I really hope people naysaying ITC has actually played in a competitive setting both with ITC and without using only the barebones GW rules.

ITC is an awesome ruleset. I use it for my events, if its good enough for the majority of big US events its got to be doing something correct

Just so as not to be misconstrued, I have no problem with the Gladius Company at all, nor with most of the ITC restrictions and rule changes. We don't play with them, but we're also not a group of strangers trying desperately to claw our way to the top, and in such a context, they seem like very reasonable adjustments.

For example, we don't see Distortion weapons on Eldar as a massive game changer (yes, it's a buff, but so what? there are always winners & losers with a new codex).

Also: I really don't think Codex: Craftwords was over the top, and I don't think they deserved all the vitriol that we saw (Ban Eldar! How silly was that?). I don't even think scatterbikes are full out crazy. Yeah, they're fantastic! But so are SM grav bikes. It's a powerful faction, it's been a powerful faction for most iterations of 40k, if you like 'em, play 'em instead of whining, and if you don't, either stop playing against them, or adjust your own army!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Personally I love the ITC format. They are very consistent with their approach to new rules, in that they don't want to change the game more than a few nudges, and they want people to be able to use their book options.

I'm largely in agreement, but we're not really crazy about their nerfs to Distort and Invisibility. I find that both are good specials, they're fun to play with and against, highly feared, and counters do exist. We play with both RAW.

Someone please tell me what formations there are that running two of gives you better bonuses then EVERY SINGLE UNIT being obsec, gives them the ultramarines chapter tactics ont top of whatever one you choose for your army theme and a bonus tac doctrine... oh and by the way here is 10 free vehicles with obsec that normally cost 50pts a piece which gives you 30 free heavy bolter shots per turn along with ten free obsec units. Oh your fast attack, and heavy support is obsec too..... If you don't see how strong that is you haven't played it yet. I've played it. I probably wont again because I felt like I couldn't lose. I also lost my first non-tournament game with the Tau ever to one of these lists. G


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
I really hope people naysaying ITC has actually played in a competitive setting both with ITC and without using only the barebones GW rules.

ITC is an awesome ruleset. I use it for my events, if its good enough for the majority of big US events its got to be doing something correct

Of course most of them haven't.

Personally I love the ITC format. They are very consistent with their approach to new rules, in that they don't want to change the game more than a few nudges, and they want people to be able to use their book options. I'm not sure why cron players are whining so much unless they just want to spam canoptek harvests. If harvest had a "take two and you get THIS" ability they absolutely would let it in.

My only gripe with ITC is the purge the alien primary mission. I think it should be 1 KP for every 10% of your total number of units is killed. (IE 3 units per point for a 30 unit army.) It just seems ridiculously punishing if your army has a lot of units as is.

That's the entire point of the mission, and so I disagree with your gripe. It's SUPPOSED to punish those armies because they have such a massive advantage in the other missions and I have by the way. There house rules don't "balance" the game any better than GW... they just shift the power to different armies so the loudest players stop whining. I also use ITC... I was really hoping they would remove the double formation rule because of this.

Not being able to take multiple formations with the Decurion is pretty ridiculous considering the wording is very clear and GW definitely intended you to be able to. How is that any different than this ruling? Not one of their house rules makes the best marine list unfieldable but it does that to the Necrons.

It doesn't do it to Eldar because a CAD is there best list


If you play space marines and don't think the full company is good. You're not good. That's the end of that. I'm not going to discuss this when I've run the scenarios and played the games enough already to actually know. If you lose with 36 scatter bikes and a wraithknight in a CAD with Eldar playing maelstrom against the most armies you played bad. Same goes for an optimized company. I play ALL these armies. Tau, Necron, Marines, and I frequently borrow my friends Eldar. There is no army that is more powerful than the current marines book. Eldar is on equal footing and that is it. Nothing else is. Necrons would be if warriors, immortals, and ghost arks could still be obsec in the Decurion

Just to be clear I main Space Marines. I have 6k pts in marines about 3k in Tau and 2600ish in Necron. So I am a Marine telling you that this ruling makes it so I'd have to be a complete idiot to bring anything but my marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
To those crying foul the double Demi Company isn't that good.you have to take both us an auxiliary detachment as well. This leaves little room for actual good units and upgrades. At 1850 you're basically taking all barebones stuff. The Spearhead Annihilation Force and Librarius conclave are much more powerful and better options if you're taking a gladius.

If you think it isn't good you just don't know how to play it. Which is weird since it's moron proof. I played a game where I killed 1925 pts in models and still lost on points. They had their ENTIRE deployment zone full of models at the beginning of the game. I wasn't messing around either. I brought a really solid list that was both powerful and mobile. I tabled a decurion detachment with Rec legion, two havests, and a destroyer cult the day before with the same list.

Quite frankly I just don't plain believe you tabling a double Canoptek Harvest with Reclamation Legion using only tactical squads, some bikers and Razorbacks ( or whatever your BC consisted of, but it had to be something basic. )

Or then your opponent doesn't know how to play.

@jakejackjake - I doubt anyone is arguing that the Gladius company is bad, but 40k isn't just about "best armies" and "garbage". There's lots of space in between, where you get armies that are competitive and have a good chance to win, but maybe less than 50/50 on average, or maybe a little more than 50/50.

I think that pragmatically, the wise thing to do would be to acknowledge that Gladius is a decent, but not try to pin down where it falls on the spectrum.

While a bunch of razorbacks or drop pods is pretty cool, you're still stuck with taking tactical squads, which the formation doesn't give a mechanism to make awesome. Which basically means you have a the option of:

1. a slightly tougher-than-average MSU core that never runs away with some reasonable shooters with the tanks, or

2. a really cheap drop pod army, but using troops that probably wouldn't have been your first choice.

So is the free stuff worth exchanging what you really wanted to take? Yeah, I think it's a pretty good trade on both the razorback and drop pod end of things, because a drop pod is still really nice, and if you flip it around and look at the reverse, 35 points for a 5 man tactical squad or 7 ppm is pretty awesome.

Also, the full company only has a base cost of 880 points, which can be mitigated by trading some razorbacks/drop pods for other stuff which might be more useful, like a devastator centurion squad instead of the devastators, if that's what you actually wanted, or some bikes for the assault squads, if that was your thing.

Anyhow, if you don't have the models and want to assess it fairly, just use some markers, and goof around with the formation with friends and see how it works. I know that we will give it a go, soon!

If a GT decide to makes Kill points a primary objective and maelstrom secondary in a mission, all those free transport wouldn't be beneficial at all.

jakejackjake wrote:
This is really unfair to the necron considering the fact that this new formation is the strongest one in the game at the moment and the necrons most competitive options involve two of the same formations....

ITC house rules are really dumb. There is no balance and they DEFINITELY don't help

This formation rule nerfs almost all of the armies except the two most powerful at the moment. Eldar, and Space Marines are completely unhurt by it and they are EASILY the strongest armies at the moment. Necrons have literally 0 chance in a maelstrom game against Space Marines when now there can be 20 ob sec units for marines on the board

No where near close to the strongest formation.
The admech combined wd formation is much stronger
The necrons and elder decorian formation are all stronger then this..

Personally, I'm glad that the ITC has allowed this particular army build. Yes, it is quite strong and nasty, but it's hardly unbeatable. The Space Marine player is trading durability for MSU and scoring ability. It can hit plenty hard, but other MSU or horde armies can hit back even harder.

ITC is personally my favorite tournament ruleset. I like their changes to Invisibility, 2+ re-rolls, and Distort. i also like how the missions cover every spectrum of the game, so every army has a change at winning at least one mission. The dual company might win Crusade, but it will probably lose Purge the Alien and Emperor's Will.

jakejackjake wrote:
Someone please tell me what formations there are that running two of gives you better bonuses then EVERY SINGLE UNIT being obsec, gives them the ultramarines chapter tactics ont top of whatever one you choose for your army theme and a bonus tac doctrine... oh and by the way here is 10 free vehicles with obsec that normally cost 50pts a piece which gives you 30 free heavy bolter shots per turn along with ten free obsec units. Oh your fast attack, and heavy support is obsec too..... If you don't see how strong that is you haven't played it yet. I've played it. I probably wont again because I felt like I couldn't lose. I also lost my first non-tournament game with the Tau ever to one of these lists. G


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
I really hope people naysaying ITC has actually played in a competitive setting both with ITC and without using only the barebones GW rules.

ITC is an awesome ruleset. I use it for my events, if its good enough for the majority of big US events its got to be doing something correct

Of course most of them haven't.

Personally I love the ITC format. They are very consistent with their approach to new rules, in that they don't want to change the game more than a few nudges, and they want people to be able to use their book options. I'm not sure why cron players are whining so much unless they just want to spam canoptek harvests. If harvest had a "take two and you get THIS" ability they absolutely would let it in.

My only gripe with ITC is the purge the alien primary mission. I think it should be 1 KP for every 10% of your total number of units is killed. (IE 3 units per point for a 30 unit army.) It just seems ridiculously punishing if your army has a lot of units as is.

That's the entire point of the mission, and so I disagree with your gripe. It's SUPPOSED to punish those armies because they have such a massive advantage in the other missions and I have by the way. There house rules don't "balance" the game any better than GW... they just shift the power to different armies so the loudest players stop whining. I also use ITC... I was really hoping they would remove the double formation rule because of this.

Not being able to take multiple formations with the Decurion is pretty ridiculous considering the wording is very clear and GW definitely intended you to be able to. How is that any different than this ruling? Not one of their house rules makes the best marine list unfieldable but it does that to the Necrons.

It doesn't do it to Eldar because a CAD is there best list


If you play space marines and don't think the full company is good. You're not good. That's the end of that. I'm not going to discuss this when I've run the scenarios and played the games enough already to actually know. If you lose with 36 scatter bikes and a wraithknight in a CAD with Eldar playing maelstrom against the most armies you played bad. Same goes for an optimized company. I play ALL these armies. Tau, Necron, Marines, and I frequently borrow my friends Eldar. There is no army that is more powerful than the current marines book. Eldar is on equal footing and that is it. Nothing else is. Necrons would be if warriors, immortals, and ghost arks could still be obsec in the Decurion

Just to be clear I main Space Marines. I have 6k pts in marines about 3k in Tau and 2600ish in Necron. So I am a Marine telling you that this ruling makes it so I'd have to be a complete idiot to bring anything but my marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
To those crying foul the double Demi Company isn't that good.you have to take both us an auxiliary detachment as well. This leaves little room for actual good units and upgrades. At 1850 you're basically taking all barebones stuff. The Spearhead Annihilation Force and Librarius conclave are much more powerful and better options if you're taking a gladius.

If you think it isn't good you just don't know how to play it. Which is weird since it's moron proof. I played a game where I killed 1925 pts in models and still lost on points. They had their ENTIRE deployment zone full of models at the beginning of the game. I wasn't messing around either. I brought a really solid list that was both powerful and mobile. I tabled a decurion detachment with Rec legion, two havests, and a destroyer cult the day before with the same list.

Thanks for calling me a moron and telling me I don't know how to play.

I am 90% confident a battle company won't be winning any major itc tournaments. It's decent but not great. It has massive weaknesses and horrible in certain missions. It's limited in a 1750-1850 tournament. And there are much more competitive formations for space marines. Spearhead and librarian conclave are hard counters to many armies with almost no weakness. Having a lot of ob sec is great then you get to the point where it doesn't matter. And honestly this is not the only way to make an army completely ob sec. There were plenty of bike spam lists I faced were nearly the entire army was ob secured. And if you don't think bike spam is just a better ob sec unit then tacs in Razorbacks you haven't been paying enough attention to tourney results.

Being #1 in ITC for Space Marines. I've decided to not play the new Space Marines codex in GTs. I'll be playing Eldar instead.

Lol. Not sure if that's better or worse