Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed

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**Frazzled**

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-man-with-towel-on-arm-shot-in-head-by-lapd-20150620-story.html
My bold. Slate has a pic of them handcuffing the guy.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/20/l_a_police_shoot_critically_wound_unarmed_man_for_having_his_arm_wrapped.html
Someone posted this will not stop until police are held to the same standard for shoots as normal citizens.

Man with towel-wrapped arm shot by LAPD in Los Feliz was unarmed
Unarmed man shot by LAPD officer

Map shows approximate location where man was shot by police in Los Feliz.
By Kate Mather and Richard Winton contact the reporters

Los Angeles Police Department

LAPD says police shot and critically wounded a man who had extended a towel-wrapped arm toward officers
Man shot by LAPD in Los Feliz could be seen in a video being handcuffed with a serious head wound
A man with towel-wrapped arm shot by LAPD in Los Feliz was unarmed, police say

Los Angeles police shot and critically wounded a man after he raised his arm, wrapped in a towel, toward officers Friday in Los Feliz, police said.

Police said officers thought the man had a gun, but he turned out to be unarmed.

The man flagged down officers about 6:35 p.m. at Los Feliz Boulevard and Tica Drive south of Griffith Park, according to a police account.

"This person extended an arm wrapped in a towel. The officer exited the vehicle and said, 'Drop the gun, drop the gun,'" LAPD Lt. John Jenal said.

Then at least one officer shot the man, officials say. He was taken to a hospital where he was listed in critical condition.

A motorist shot graphic video of the officers handcuffing the man with a visible head injury.

LAPD Cmdr. Andrew Smith, a department spokesman, said the officers followed standard procedure in handcuffing the man when they did. At that point, Smith said, the man had not been searched and was considered a suspect.

"We always do that," Smith said. "That's the policy ... to handcuff someone in a situation like that."

Smith cautioned that the investigation into Friday's shooting was still in its early stages. One of the key questions, he said, was why the man flagged down the two uniformed officers.

The man was standing on the side of the road, Smith said, when he called out to the officers: "Police, police."

Smith said investigators would explore all possibilities, including whether the man needed some type of help from police. He said investigators would also look into the man's background to see if there were any indications the shooting was an attempted "suicide by cop."

The man's name has not been released.

"We cover everything. Our investigators leave no stone unturned," Smith said. "We don't have any idea about this guy's background. We just don't know yet."

The shooting in Los Feliz was one of two Friday in which LAPD officers shot a man who was partially concealed by a blanket or towel. Earlier in the day, LAPD officials said, officers wounded a man in El Monte after he got out of a car covered in a blanket and then brandished a gun. The man, who was critically wounded, had led officers on a two-hour chase that began in South L.A. after he allegedly assaulted a woman.

Smith said investigators would also examine whether the officers involved in the Los Feliz shooting were aware of the other incident earlier in the day.

The officers in the Los Feliz shooting were assigned to the LAPD's Security Services division — a detail that typically provides security at city facilities, Smith said.

Except for a small strip of yellow police tape tied to a porch railing, there were no signs Saturday morning that a shooting had occurred in the Los Feliz neighborhood. The shooting happened along a stretch of Los Feliz Boulevard popular among joggers and people walking their dogs, not far from a stretch of restaurants drawing their typical weekend brunch crowds.

Kelsey Magnuson, 31, has lived in the building across the street from where the shooting occurred for almost 10 years. She said she was surprised when she learned of the shooting Friday, given how safe the area feels.

It's the kind of neighborhood where someone can step outside their building for a late-night cigarette and not feel threatened, she said.

"I've never felt like there would be anything worrisome here," she said. "It makes you wonder what the commotion was."

The Los Feliz shooting marks the latest of several high-profile police shootings the LAPD is grappling with.

Last week, the Los Angeles Police Commission concluded that one of the two L.A. police officers who fatally shot Ezell Ford, a mentally ill black man, last summer was not justified in using deadly force.

LAPD reports found that Ford and the officer were struggling over the officer's weapon. But the commission decided that the officer did not have a reason to stop and detain Ford in the first place. His handling of the encounter, the commission concluded, was so flawed that it led to the fatal confrontation.

The LAPD is also investigating the fatal police shooting of an unarmed and homeless black man near the Venice boardwalk in May.

L.A. police Chief Charlie Beck has said he was “very concerned” about the May shooting. “Any time an unarmed person is shot by a Los Angeles police officer, it takes extraordinary circumstances to justify that,” Beck told reporters in May. “I have not seen those extraordinary circumstances.”

The LAPD is now investigating the Los Feliz shooting. Based on the video, the officers and the injured man all appear to be white.

**MrDwhitey**

Now for someone morally bankrupt to condone this...

Especially like how they're already trying to spin a narrative by saying they'll look into the guys background, as if that fething matters.

**Kanluwen**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Now for someone morally bankrupt to condone this...

Especially like how they're already trying to spin a narrative by saying they'll look into the guys background, as if that fething matters.

Actually it does matter. If the individual had a history of confrontations with police and mental illness, it makes the possibility of an attempt at "suicide by cop" a very real possible explanation for the situation.
It's also very true that standard procedures are to handcuff someone, even if injured.

Call me "morally bankrupt" or whatever crap you want, but "suicide by cop" is a very real phenomenon. If that was the intent here, it's sad but at the same time it's a hell of a lot better than the individuals who have armed themselves and brought innocents into their death plans.

**Frazzled**

Why would you handcuff someone you shot because you thought they had a gun if they didn't have a gun?

It immediately fails the logic test, and thats why it is stupid.

**MrDwhitey**

Actually, it doesn't in this case, because he flagged down some officers at random. There was no "Prehistory" in this shooting, it was two cops responding to a man waving them down.

Him having some kind of history would have no bearing in their interactions because they wouldn't even know. And even if he did have a history, they didn't even ascertain first the man was armed or a real threat. Just that he had a towel. And yes, sometimes people conceal weapons under towels. I guess police should shoot everyone with a towel on their arm.

Also good strawman, I never said that saying suicide by cop is a real thing = moral bankruptcy. Then again, everyone already knew whose side you'd be on regardless.

**CptJake**

I think some will depend on if the cops knew of the other guy earlier in the day covered with a blanket who did have a gun. The article doesn't really give enough info to say if the shoot was justified or not.

Handcuffing the wounded guy makes a ton of sense to me. Heck, we trained to zip strip and secure everyone in the Army. Even a wounded guy can hurt/kill you. And a 'dead' guy may not be dead. Once you have the prisoner secured you can go through search and first aid procedures with less risk to you and your buddies.

**MrDwhitey**

Man flags down police with towel covered arm, he raises arm, they shoot him.

Unless there's some really insane gak going on that hasn't been reported, at best it is NOT a justified shoot based on what is known.

I'm fully willing to change my tune if things come out stating he was actually armed and tried to attack officers.

**Kanluwen**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Actually, it doesn't in this case, because he flagged down some officers at random. There was no "Prehistory" in this shooting, it was two cops responding to a man waving them down.

Him having some kind of history would have no bearing in their interactions because they wouldn't even know. And even if he did have a history, they didn't even ascertain first the man was armed or a real threat. Just that he had a towel. And yes, sometimes people conceal weapons under towels. I guess police should shoot everyone with a towel on their arm.

They've literally just started an investigation, and apparently you know more than the police do about the situation. Perhaps they should hire you for your Holmesian insight?

Also, you realize that police officers do talk amongst themselves right? That they update officers who share the same patrols as to what's going on?
The officers themselves having no history with the guy is not necessarily going to mean anything in a situation like this.

Also good strawman, I never said that saying suicide by cop is a real thing = moral bankruptcy.

I'm not the one who started off their posting in this thread with several obscenities and claiming that anyone trying to justify this is "morally bankrupt", so think before you post. You set the tone for this thread

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Why would you handcuff someone you shot because you thought they had a gun if they didn't have a gun?

It immediately fails the logic test, and thats why it is stupid.

It's a precaution to ensure safety of EMTs. A wounded suspect isn't the same thing as a dead suspect, and there are such a thing as knives.

I agree to a point that in this situation it was (seemingly) stupid, but it is standard procedure.

**CptJake**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Man flags down police with towel covered arm, he raises arm, they shoot him.

Unless there's some really insane gak going on that hasn't been reported, at best it is NOT a justified shoot based on what is known.

No, we really do not have enough info. How was he raising that arm, was it as if he was pointing something (like a gun)? Or was it a clear act of submission? Was he making other threatening noises/gestures? What was the distance between the cops and the guy who got shot? There are way too many things we don't know to make a judgement call.

**MrDwhitey**

I claimed that anyone trying to justify officers shooting an unarmed man for having a towel on his hand is morally bankrupt.

End of, you're the one who then tried to change what I meant, good old police apologist Kan. Keep on apologising!

Also, I'm going from what's reported. I've already said I'm happy to change if it turns out he was actually armed, or he assaulted officers or w/e.

**Kanluwen**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Man flags down police with towel covered arm, he raises arm, they shoot him.

Unless there's some really insane gak going on that hasn't been reported, at best it is NOT a justified shoot based on what is known.

I'm fully willing to change my tune if things come out stating he was actually armed and tried to attack officers.

Did he actually have the towel wrapped around his arm, such as what one would do when you're covering up a cut or injury, or did he have the towel draped over his arm?

One of those makes it clear that "This man is not a threat" while the other could reasonably be construed as someone attempting to hide a firearm in their hand.

I'll let you figure out which is which.

**MrDwhitey**

I'll let you figure out in what world is it a good thing that police can just shoot people with towels over their arms just in case they had a gun under it.

I already pointed this out earlier, thanks for fulfilling so fast.

**CptJake**

MrDwhitey wrote:
I claimed that anyone trying to justify officers shooting an unarmed man for having a towel on his hand is morally bankrupt.

End of, you're the one who then tried to change what I meant, good old police apologist Kan. Keep on apologising!

Also, I'm going from what's reported. I've already said I'm happy to change if it turns out he was actually armed.

Armed/not armed won't be The Factor in justified or not. You very often cannot tell if he was armed when you must make the call.

Hell your quoted post alludes to that. Guy points towel covered hand at cop. Cop shoots. You seem to be saying if the hand had a gun in it the shoot would be justified, if it did not the shoot is unjustified. How the feth would you expect the cop to know the answer to that?

**MrDwhitey**

Clearly by shooting the guy and checking his body after. Only way to be safe.

**Kanluwen**

MrDwhitey wrote:
I claimed that anyone trying to justify officers shooting an unarmed man for having a towel on his hand is morally bankrupt.

End of, you're the one who then tried to change what I meant, good old police apologist Kan. Keep on apologising!

End of, you're the one who set the tone for this thread. Congratulations.

And calling me a "police apologist" is just adorable. Maybe you can contribute to this thread without making sweeping generalizations or namecalling?

Also, I'm going from what's reported. I've already said I'm happy to change if it turns out he was actually armed, or he assaulted officers or w/e.

"What's reported" is enough that it raises some very valid questions.

**CptJake**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Clearly by shooting the guy and checking his body after. Only way to be safe.

Does that translate into "I'm a smart ass who really does not have a solution"?

Because it sure as gak comes across that way.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

"What's reported" is enough that it raises some very valid questions.

Of course it does, which is why it is being investigated.

And frankly, if the cops screwed up, I hope they get hammered for it, just as any one who unjustifiably shoots someone should be.

**MrDwhitey**

No, CptJake, there is no happy solution. You either accept police should be the ones in these situations taking some risks that someone with a towel might have a gun under it, or that innocent civilians should be the ones taking risks that the police will shoot them for having a towel.

**CptJake**

MrDwhitey wrote:
No, CptJake, there is no happy solution. You either accept police should be the ones in these situations taking some risks that someone with a towel might have a gun under it, or that innocent civilians should be the ones taking risks that the police will shoot them for having a towel.

There is no indication they shot him for 'having a towel', so you can build that straw man all you want. Here in the US, hundreds of millions of people have towels and use them every day. They don't get shot for it.

Something else triggered the shoot. That is the point. How he had the towel, how he acted, something other than 'having a towel' seems to have made the cops pull the trigger. That something (most likely behavioral clues combined with inability to see the guy's hands) is what got the guy shot. The question is, were those behavioral clues and concealed hand enough to justify the shoot. And based solely on the info in the article, we do not know.

**Frazzled**

CptJake wrote:
I think some will depend on if the cops knew of the other guy earlier in the day covered with a blanket who did have a gun. The article doesn't really give enough info to say if the shoot was justified or not.

It doesn't matter. Its still not justified. People have had guns on them before. They can't shoot everyone that flags them down because they might have had guns on them.

Handcuffing the wounded guy makes a ton of sense to me. Heck, we trained to zip strip and secure everyone in the Army. Even a wounded guy can hurt/kill you. And a 'dead' guy may not be dead. Once you have the prisoner secured you can go through search and first aid procedures with less risk to you and your buddies.

A wounded guy can hurt you FOR WHAT?

"why did you shoot him?"
"he wouldn't put down the gun."
"did he have a gun?"
"no"
"then why did you handcuff him.'
"he could still be a threat."
"you mean the guy you thought mght have a gun that you shot in the head, but didn't have a gun?"
"yea"
"why would he be a threat, I mean other than bleeding on you?"
"because...reasons"

**Kilkrazy**

This clearly proves that a towel is not the most massively useful thing a hitch hiker can carry.

**Frazzled**

CptJake wrote:
MrDwhitey wrote:
Man flags down police with towel covered arm, he raises arm, they shoot him.

Unless there's some really insane gak going on that hasn't been reported, at best it is NOT a justified shoot based on what is known.

No, we really do not have enough info. How was he raising that arm, was it as if he was pointing something (like a gun)? Or was it a clear act of submission? Was he making other threatening noises/gestures? What was the distance between the cops and the guy who got shot? There are way too many things we don't know to make a judgement call.

Lets assume he pointed that towel right at 'em and wouldn't stop, so they shot him (evidently pointing a loaded towel is an executable offense). Once they've provided to literally blow his brains out and he is on the ground why handcuff him when there is no gun there? [i][u]

**clamclaw**

Yeah IDK what argument there is to be made, unless some new information is reported that would point to the man purposefully aggravating the cops to the point of drawing weapons on him.

He had a towel on his arm and got shot for it. Pretty cut and dry.

**MrDwhitey**

Actually the handcuffing would be fine in my books if they had seen a weapon on him (as that would give possible intent on his part to harm the officers), as people even with insane wounds can do some weird gak/still be a threat.

As it is, they did not see him even slightly as a threat. Look at how they handcuff him. They're more concerned about getting blood on their hands than quickly securing a potential threat.

**Frazzled**

Of course it does, which is why it is being investigated.

And frankly, if the cops screwed up, I hope they get hammered for it, just as any one who unjustifiably shoots someone should be.

Its not being investigated. Its being covered up. The police did not say he pointed it the loaded towel at them.

**MrDwhitey**

Well they're refusing to name anyone involved and are already trying to colour the waters by putting out the suicide by cop narrative.

**CptJake**

Frazzled wrote:
CptJake wrote:
I think some will depend on if the cops knew of the other guy earlier in the day covered with a blanket who did have a gun. The article doesn't really give enough info to say if the shoot was justified or not.

It doesn't matter. Its still not justified. People have had guns on them before. They can't shoot everyone that flags them down because they might have had guns on them.

Handcuffing the wounded guy makes a ton of sense to me. Heck, we trained to zip strip and secure everyone in the Army. Even a wounded guy can hurt/kill you. And a 'dead' guy may not be dead. Once you have the prisoner secured you can go through search and first aid procedures with less risk to you and your buddies.

A wounded guy can hurt you FOR WHAT?

"why did you shoot him?"
"he wouldn't put down the gun."
"did he have a gun?"
"no"
"then why did you handcuff him.'
"he could still be a threat."
"you mean the guy you thought mght have a gun that you shot in the head, but didn't have a gun?"
"yea"
"why would he be a threat, I mean other than bleeding on you?"
"because...reasons"

1. Again, as I have stated a few times in this topic, we do not know how this guy was acting. I strongly suspect he did more than flag down the cops. If I am wrong, the investigation will surely show that is all he did.

2. At what point does the article state 'The cops knew he was unarmed and then they cuffed him."? It does not. for all we know the hand was still concealed until they pulled it behind his back to cuff him. Even if not, it does state he was not searched yet. Weapon in hand or not, at the time the cops cuffed him they did not know if he had a weapon or not. Also, even wounded folks without a weapon have been known to grab a cop's weapon or otherwise attack a cop or EMT trying to help them. You cuff them. That is why the SOP is in place.

**MrDwhitey**

1. Eh, I'm not exactly trusting that the investigation will "surely show" anything. Never know though.

2. You saw the video right, you saw how casually they went about the handcuffing, no concern whatsoever over potential threats. Again though, as said before, there is always a chance.

**Frazzled**

Again, the video is there. The pic shows his arm.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/20/l_a_police_shoot_critically_wound_unarmed_man_for_having_his_arm_wrapped.html

**MrDwhitey**

I should add, in support of CptJake.

Anecdotal I know but still. A scene where a man committed suicide by shotgun to the face, they leave the body and go to another room when suddenly the guy gets up, comes in and sits down. He died before getting to hospital but he was still able to move and do things. (this is an experience from a cop, not me)

Also that picture is really blurry for what I assume is his other arm with a towel on it?

**Talizvar**

Okay.
You are a cop flagged down by someone.
They point / extend an arm wrapped in a towel obscuring his hand (I assume or if wrapped around the forearm this is pointless).
Do you as a policeman wait for the "surprise" of what this person is covering and why?
BTW, this is a GREAT way to muffle the gun shot, flash and powder residue so suspicion would be quite high.

So you proceed with "drop the gun" and draw your firearm when you really mean "do not point a blessed thing at me or I assume hostile intent."
So the person against all sanity with a cop yelling at him and pointing a gun does a last move / twitch in the cop's general direction and gets shot.
Handcuffing is normal no matter what condition if the person is considered a threat (head wound or not).

I hate to say, I see no problem here other than unfortunate this silly dude was not planning to shoot a cop, but may have been intending suicide by cop as mentioned.
<edit>Did it say anywhere if there was some object or wound the towel was covering? Any reason at all?