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djones, wouldn't the search of this guy have been performed while officers were cuffing him? Because before putting a bullet in this guy's head the officers thought he had a gun in his hands. So, while going to cuff the guy's wrists wouldn't the officers have noticed that there was no gun?

Why continue to cuff the guy?

"Because that is standard procedure."

Which is an unsatisfying answer for the general public. Police already have both eyes blackened lately for their repeated misuse of force across the country and incidents like this don't help. If you spill a guy's brains on the sidewalk for no good reason perhaps following procedure after the fact should be less of a concern than being a good human being and rendering aid. If only so that images of you cuffing an individual with an aerated skull don't spill out over the internet and make you look like a heartless killer.

You know. Optics.

 CptJake wrote:
A person who has not been searched is going to be secured/cuffed for the safety of the cops and EMT. .

So clearly we should just all be wearing handcuffs until such point as a police officer determines us to not be a threat.

Or shoots us in the head, on the off-chance that we might have a gun.

 CptJake wrote:
Your point is valid on the shoot/don't shoot aspect. It really is not valid on the cuffing. A person who has not been searched is going to be secured/cuffed for the safety of the cops and EMT. At that point, when you must make physical contact with him to search him or treat him, he is a potential threat regardless of what his wounds look like.

It's valid for both because, especially in this circumstance, the first thing directly effects the second thing.

"Who gives a feth if I just shot a guy in the head, better cuff him because even though he's on the ground bleeding out a gunshot wound, he probably wants to kill me!"

Do not perform first aid on the man you nearly murdered, cuff him to make sure he doesn't have the gun you had no reason to think he had in the first place!

Don't spam the forum, thanks, motyak

I am so gonna get flamed/insulted for this, but I am curious:

If this exact same scenario had instead played out in Iraq between a US soldier and an Iraqi civilian, what would people's thoughts be?

Don't spam the forum, thanks, motyak

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I am so gonna get flamed/insulted for this, but I am curious:

If this exact same scenario had instead played out in Iraq between a US soldier and an Iraqi civilian, what would people's thoughts be?

I've seen it said that soldiers had stricter RoE than LEOs by quite a few people when this subject comes up on reddit.

I feel a sudden need for rolling out a robot "telepresence" so the cop would not feel threatened, like the bomb disposal robot.

"Greetings citizen! I have been sent to ask if you could hand me your towel."
"There is concern you could have a big nasty gun under it so for your own safety you need to hand it over now."
"<Threat escalation increase>CITIZEN this unit is authorized to taze you repeatedly if you do not comply, place the towel and it's contents into the enclosure provided."
"Pepper spray will be provided after the flashbang for your enjoyment... drop the towel now."
"Escalated taze voltage and possible refibullator application authorized, 20 seconds to comply."
"<15 seconds pass>TAZE-FLASH-BANG!-SPRAY.... "Clear suspect.." ZAP-thunk!"
"Officer, suspect is neutralized, feel free to cuff him, if he moves, please clear so he may be tazed again."

My anticipated future of law enforcement.

 insaniak wrote:
So clearly we should just all be wearing handcuffs until such point as a police officer determines us to not be a threat.

Not a bad idea, they can be quite stylish:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
So clearly we should just all be wearing handcuffs until such point as a police officer determines us to not be a threat.

Not a bad idea, they can be quite stylish:

Spoiler:

Pfft, those are much too easy to get out of. The chain is too long.

 CptJake wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
A person who has not been searched is going to be secured/cuffed for the safety of the cops and EMT. .

So clearly we should just all be wearing handcuffs until such point as a police officer determines us to not be a threat.

Or shoots us in the head, on the off-chance that we might have a gun.

Spoiler:

Posts of 2 words, neither of which are really words, or posts entirely made up of an image (quotes don't count) are spam. I'm out buying dinner for tonight, people in this thread have until I get back to fix this.

To the thread in general; politeness, being on topic and not spamming. Important rules, obey them like you'd obey hypnotoad

So do all casualties in the US need to be cuffed for paramedics to be able to see them safely or only those shot by the police regardless of whether they have actually committed a crime?

After all, anybody, regardless of if they were involved in a police incident, could potentially be a threat to an attending paramedic if they choose to be.

There is such a thing as standards and procedures they follow.

Cuff the dead guy/gurl
Cuff the wounded guy/gurl
Cuff the unwounded guy/gurl
Someone getting cuffed



One train to standards
One maintains the standards

The whole thing is risk reduction.
High risk of lethality to officer or civilian, lethal force allowed.
Possible violent unsearched suspect, cuff them regardless of status.

I had the experience of being pulled over by a state trooper and asked for license and registration.
I went to pull my wallet out of my back pocket and wound up staring down the barrel of a gun and him saying "Easy there boy!".
Turned out he was a nice guy and he got a laugh about the crazy Canadian, when he saw the plates he was not as worried about the hands not being out the window but the unseen fumbling around got him nervous.
I got a rundown on "procedure" so I would not have to inspect the cleanliness of a officer's firearm again.

I hated doing check points in Iraq because that

Visible hands we might be okay
No hands we might have a problem

Then you have a case where a handcuffed suspect kills a cop in what by most posters here would be think to be a controlled situation:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/police-capture-suspect-accused-killing-officer-article-1.2265846

Relapse wrote:
Then you have a case where a handcuffed suspect kills a cop in what by most posters here would be think to be a controlled situation:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/police-capture-suspect-accused-killing-officer-article-1.2265846

And there you have an example of what happens when police officers are lax with suspects.

So tell me, what was towel man suspected of?

For all the LEO's knew he might have had a pistol/revolver/flint lock pistol/sawed of Nagant/Pipe Shotgun/TyrionorDaryl crossbo/Callahan full-bore auto lock with customized trigger double cartridge thorough gauge with a potato silencer on the end of the weapon wrapped in a towl aimed at them

 Jihadin wrote:

For all the LEO's knew he might have had a pistol/revolver/flint lock pistol/sawed of Nagant/Pipe Shotgun/TyrionorDaryl crossbo/Callahan full-bore auto lock with customized trigger double cartridge thorough gauge with a potato silencer on the end of the weapon wrapped in a towl aimed at them

Although presumably the fact that he didn't have such a thing would have become quickly apparent when they went to handcuff him...

I mean, I've never been handcuffed, so might be mistaken, but I had been working under the belief that it somehow involves cuffing the hands. Thus making it readily noticable whether or not there is in fact a weapon in said hands.

I never shot an insurgent who was zipcuffed
I got head butted by one that busted my nose
So I "notionally" responded in kind with a head butt wearing my ACH with the mount attach to helmet

I Lie all the time
everything post is a lie
I'm a fake

Actually was mention before this sounds so much like "Suicide by Cop"

Towels are extremely dangerous weapons, especially when wet. The police did the right thing, for their lives were clearly threatened by this towel-wielding maniac. I would urge everyone to bring a gun to a towel fight. When someone comes at you with a towel, just shoot, you can't take the risk the towel might be wet. Even a short moment of hesitation is fatal if the suspect indeed happens to be armed with a wet towel.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Then you have a case where a handcuffed suspect kills a cop in what by most posters here would be think to be a controlled situation:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/police-capture-suspect-accused-killing-officer-article-1.2265846

And there you have an example of what happens when police officers are lax with suspects.

So tell me, what was towel man suspected of?

There's more than one example of cops being killed by "subdued" suspects. As far as being suspected of something, a good thing to remember is this is on the heels of the other guy that summoned police, only to kill one of them.

Relapse wrote:


There's more than one example of cops being killed by "subdued" suspects. As far as being suspected of something, a good thing to remember is this is on the heels of the other guy that summoned police, only to kill one of them.

And that is relevant how? I'm sure that all over the world people go up to police officers on the same day as another person has attempted to kill another officer in that force. Was there any valid reason to suspect this man was linked, in any way, to the other incident?

Wouldn't having some guy with a towel wrapped around his hand and pointed it at you not creep you out a tiny bit?

I don't like anything pointed at me on the best of days.

Hindsight is 20-20, you expect a cop not to "deal" with this weird situation with anything less than worst case scenario?

 Talizvar wrote:
Wouldn't having some guy with a towel wrapped around his hand and pointed it at you not creep you out a tiny bit?

Ah, well, if it creeped them out, then that's totally justification for shooting him in the head. Nobody needs creeped out police officers.

Hindsight is 20-20, you expect a cop not to "deal" with this weird situation with anything less than worst case scenario?

Yes. A million times yes.

Lethal force should always be an absolute last resort.


'Well, he might have a gun. Better shoot him in the head, just in case' is not an absolute last resort.

 Talizvar wrote:
Wouldn't having some guy with a towel wrapped around his hand and pointed it at you not creep you out a tiny bit?

I don't like anything pointed at me on the best of days.

Hindsight is 20-20, you expect a cop not to "deal" with this weird situation with anything less than worst case scenario?

Very true. As I said, whenever someone points a towel at you, assume the worst and kill the guy immediately. Towels are fething dangerous.

I think Nudity should be mandatory so you can see if someone is packing, but a certain part of the male physic could be considered a weapon if it is ready to shoot.

Jokes aside, there is something really wrong with the way American police handle perceived dangerous situations.

Let's look at the day's happenings there:

"The shooting in Los Feliz was one of two Friday in which LAPD officers shot a man who was partially concealed by a blanket or towel. Earlier in the day, LAPD officials said, officers wounded a man in El Monte after he got out of a car covered in a blanket and then brandished a gun. The man, who was critically wounded, had led officers on a two-hour chase that began in South L.A. after he allegedly assaulted a woman. "

Yep, I guess I would get a bit worried about someone pointing a towel wrapped arm at me after that earlier bit of news from the day was reported coupled with the uptick in cop killings.


With that, I am out of here, because this thread is headed for lockdown with people who have no idea what the situation was, yet are eager to say with the benefit of hind site and for the most part never having been in a situation where a split seconds hesitation could get them killed, that the cops should have been mind readers with X-ray vision.